emperors soul The Emperor must die

[Honorless]

So, who tried to assassinate Emperor Ashravan? And did successfully assassinate his wife, Kurshina.

The strongest contenders, the biggest suspects in-world as per the characters themselves, is the Glory Faction, one of the 80 factions which compete for power in the Rose Empire. The Emperor himself and the five arbiters including Gaotona are from the Heritage Faction. The Glory Faction stood to gain the most from the assassination and seemed to act as though to make the most of his possible death

There are two out there options though, that I want to explore: Fjordell Empire or the as of yet unknown third empire on Sel.

Both of these entities might, much like on Earth, like for their rival superpower to enter political turmoil. There was even a Shu Dereth priest in the Imperial Seat of the Rose Empire whom Shai encountered.

The Derethi priest in red could've been a red herring, I guess but despite what Occam's razor might tell you, the simplest solution isn't always the right one, deviations do occur. 

It could also be a way to introduce us to the third empire on Sel or to tie them back to previous works set on the same world

Historically speaking, it was common for outside powers to ally themselves with inside oppositions and rivals of the government they were trying to destabilize. Sometimes they provided resources to these rivals to topple the government or assassinate the ruler, sometimes they didn't want to rely on a coup d'état and used their own personnel and expected their insider allies to provide them with a way in. Either of these scenarios could fit the bill as well

Also, why would Hoid try to have Shai captured, I mean, you could argue that he just wanted to get the Moon Sceptre but to me at least that doesn't seem quite right. He's Hoid, he should've been able to steal it himself or steal it from under the noses of both the Rose Empire & Shai if it came down to it. I'm not trying to vouch for the goodness of his heart but he doesn't seem like the type to do this. In the deleted prologue too, it seemed as though he wanted Shai to Soulforge Ashravan:

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-emperors-soul-deleted-prologue-imperial-fool/

And it just seems weird for Hoid to meddle in the politics of other worlds for no reason. He is supposed to have access to a form of Fortune which lets him know where/when he needs to be (though not what for). Was something bigger going on behind the scenes of this novella? Why would stability in the Rose Empire be something big enough for Hoid to interfere or was that just two birds with one stone? 

What do you guys think? Or do we already have confirmation from Brandon?

Edited May 12, 2020 by R J
Kushina > Kurshina, oops, different redheads

[ftl]

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

So, who tried to assassinate Emperor Ashravan? And did successfully assassinate his wife, Kurshina.

The strongest contenders, the biggest suspects in-world as per the characters themselves, is the Glory Faction, one of the 80 factions which compete for power in the Rose Empire. The Emperor himself and the five arbiters including Gaotona are from the Heritage Faction. The Glory Faction stood to gain the most from the assassination and seemed to act as though to make the most of his possible death

 

This seems to be the most likely option implied by the superficial reading of the book... doesn't mean it's right though.

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

There are two out there options though, that I want to explore: Fjordell Empire or the as of yet unknown third empire on Sel.

Both of these entities might, much like on Earth, like for their rival superpower to enter political turmoil. There was even a Shu Dereth priest in the Capital City of the Rose Empire whom Shai encountered.

I like those options too. Especially the mention of the Derethi priest - there's openings there for planetary-scale intrigue if Brandon wants to elaborate on it...

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

Also, why would Hoid try to have Shai captured, I mean, you could argue that he just wanted to get the Moon Sceptre but to me at least that doesn't seem quite right. He's Hoid, he should've been able to steal it himself or steal it from under the noses of both the Rose Empire & Shai if it came down to it.

I think this is exactly what Hoid did, though. He stole it from under the noses of both the Rose Empire and Shai. If he hadn't explicitly told Shai that he'd stolen it in the deleted scene, nobody would even know he did.

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

I'm not trying to vouch for the goodness of his heart but he doesn't seem like the type to do this.

In my opinion he is. He's got the capability to be ruthless and to betray people for his own benefit - just not physically hurt them himself.

He wanted the Scepter. He got the scepter, betraying both his employer (Rose Empire) and his accomplice (Shai) to get it. Seems in-character to me.

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

 

In the deleted prologue too, it seemed as though he wanted Shai to Soulforge Ashravan

https://www.brandonsanderson.com/the-emperors-soul-deleted-prologue-imperial-fool/

Agreed. He definitely helped Shai get the opportunity here.

I don't know whether what he did is help the near-assassination happen (thus giving Shai the opportunity) or to help Ashravan survive the attempt instead of being killed (thus, also giving Shai the opportunity). I would have usually guessed the latter - that Hoid interferes to prevent Ashravan from succumbing to his injuries, long enough for his flesh to be sealed but his mind to be gone, giving the Arbiters the opportunity to go to Shai for help.

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

And it just seems weird for Hoid to meddle in politics of other worlds for no reason.

Doesn't seem weird to me. Hoid meddles all the time for his own ends. Usually when we see that reason it's either trying to oppose Rayse or (more often) trying to get a new form of power. Here, it's the latter - he wants to get the moon scepter to help figure out Selish magic which he doesn't have yet.

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

He is supposed to have access to a form of Fortune which lets him know where/when he needs to be (though not what for). Was something bigger going on behind the scenes of this novella?

What do you guys think? Or do we already have confirmation from Brandon?

Not that I can think of - but definitely want to hear theories!

[Honorless]

On 2/10/2020 at 5:19 AM, ftl said:

 

This seems to be the most likely option implied by the superficial reading of the book... doesn't mean it's right though.

I like those options too. Especially the mention of the Derethi priest - there's openings there for planetary-scale intrigue if Brandon wants to elaborate on it...

I think this is exactly what Hoid did, though. He stole it from under the noses of both the Rose Empire and Shai. If he hadn't explicitly told Shai that he'd stolen it in the deleted scene, nobody would even know he did.

In my opinion he is. He's got the capability to be ruthless and to betray people for his own benefit - just not physically hurt them himself.

He wanted the Scepter. He got the scepter, betraying both his employer (Rose Empire) and his accomplice (Shai) to get it. Seems in-character to me.

Agreed. He definitely helped Shai get the opportunity here.

I don't know whether what he did is help the near-assassination happen (thus giving Shai the opportunity) or to help Ashravan survive the attempt instead of being killed (thus, also giving Shai the opportunity). I would have usually guessed the latter - that Hoid interferes to prevent Ashravan from succumbing to his injuries, long enough for his flesh to be sealed but his mind to be gone, giving the Arbiters the opportunity to go to Shai for help.

Doesn't seem weird to me. Hoid meddles all the time for his own ends. Usually when we see that reason it's either trying to oppose Rayse or (more often) trying to get a new form of power. Here, it's the latter - he wants to get the moon scepter to help figure out Selish magic which he doesn't have yet.

Not that I can think of - but definitely want to hear theories!

That's what Hoid thinks of himself. It's what he says to

Spoiler

Dalinar

in Stormlight

But we also see him interact with other characters there, don't we?

Spoiler

With Shallan & Kaladin

but let's not base this on Hoid's character, we haven't really gotten to know him that well yet

I think he wanted to prevent the tension arising from governmental destabilization, I don't think he was involved in the assassination itself. He wanted Shai to prevent the repercussions, he shouldn't have helped facilitate that situation (the assassination), only Shai's imprisonment so she had to Soulforge Ashravan. The Moon Sceptre, I think, was why he had a long con running as the Imperial Fool that was made easier for him by Shai's plans of subterfuge. If he was only there for the Moon Sceptre then perhaps- but I don't think he was— and that's what the deleted scene alludes to

Edited May 12, 2020 by R J

[Draginon]

Maybe Hoid was involved in getting Shai to be in the position to Forge the emperor because it might have something to do with Adonalsium since both were gone but there was still something remaining of them.

Since these books are still early in the timeline Hoid might most likely be doing stuff on Sel trying to get access to the magic but keeps having trouble until he gets to the realization that he can’t use it off world or only those from Sel can use it, even if Identity is changed.

[Honorless]

On 2/12/2020 at 3:04 AM, Draginon said:

Maybe Hoid was involved in getting Shai to be in the position to Forge the emperor because it might have something to do with Adonalsium since both were gone but there was still something remaining of them.

Since these books are still early in the timeline Hoid might most likely be doing stuff on Sel trying to get access to the magic but keeps having trouble until he gets to the realization that he can’t use it off world or only those from Sel can use it, even if Identity is changed.

Hmm, I don't know about the Adonalsium bit

Spoiler

I suppose he could be regretting the Shattering and might want to bring Adonalsium back to life. What he said in that short story, 'The Traveler', could be about Adonalsium, I suppose... Though I don't think re-combining all the Shards would bring him back to life. I can see where you're coming from, but I just personally don't believe this was his motive here

How early in the timeline is the Emperor's Soul? Probably before Elantris? (given the postscript in 10th Anniversary Edition), Hoid definitely intends to hack the Selish magics, it seems. I doubt that he's given up. 

Edit: found WoBs confirming that Draginon is correct, Emperor's Soul is set after Elantris

Quote

Questioner

So was The Emperor's Soul before Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson

It's after.

Questioner

So are you going to write a book that explains what happened to the [Rose Empire] then?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out more about it eventually, yes. But it's not my main project right now. We'll see how it happens eventually.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

Quote

Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

Can you tell us the timeline of [The Emperor's Soul] in comparison to Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It happens shortly after Elantris.

Hal-Con 2012 (Oct. 30, 2012)

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Elantris to Emperor's Soul? Similar time period, Emperor's Soul is a little after.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

Quote

Kogiopsis

When is The Emperor's Soul set relative to Elantris specifically and the other cosmere books?

Brandon Sanderson

The Emperor's Soul is set after Elantris but not so far that the characters from Elantris would not still be around.

Words of Radiance Portland signing (March 7, 2014)

 

Edited May 13, 2020 by R J

[Draginon]

11 hours ago, R J said:

Hmm, I don't know about the Adonalsium bit

  Reveal hidden contents

I suppose he could be regretting the Shattering and might want to bring Adonalsium back to life. What he said in that short story, 'The Traveler', could be about Adonalsium, I suppose... Though I don't think re-combining all the Shards would bring him back to life. I can see where you're coming from, but I just personally don't believe this was his motive here

How early in the timeline is the Emperor's Soul? Probably before Elantris? (given the postscript in 10th Anniversary Edition), Hoid definitely intends to hack the Selish magics, it seems. I doubt that he's given up. 

I think Emperor’s Soul is after Elantris but before Elantris 2.