The Capacity to Save the World

[Exthalion]

I am sorry if this isn't much of a theory, or if it has already been advanced, but a thought occurred to me while reading WoR.

 

We know a certain character asked for a gift of the Nightmother which swings back and forth daily. He and everyone around him is convinced that the "gift" was increased mental ability and act according to the insights produced on days where it is strong.

 

However, what if that was the curse? What if it was the quality he expresses on his "off days" which is the true capacity to save the world? This quality is compassion, which grows almost crippling when his mind is weak. This quality seems to be the one which is actually moving the world in a positive direction. It was Kaladin's compassion which allowed him to speak the Third Ideal and bring Syl back from death. It was Jasnah's compassion toward Shallan that led to the latter growing as a Knight, and Shallan's compassion which redeemed so many of the deserters.

 

Do you think that that the certain charter's intelligence is only a false path, divorced from Wisdom as it often seems to be?

 

P.S. I wasn't sure about the spoiler policy so I tried to keep thing vague. I can edit for clarity if need be.

[Rybal]

My guess is that it's both.

 

He asked for the capacity to save the world and got it - both in the most literal form in the Diagram and the more symbolic form with compassion.

 

We notice that his compassion/empathy tends to be inversely proportional to his intelligence on any given day and my guess is that the two would conflict too much if they were directly proportional. The world needs both aspects, so that's what he was given.

[Shardlet]

Welcome, Exthalion.  I agree that Taravangian is incorrectly interpreting his boon v. curse.  I am not sure if it is simply his compassion that is the answer since when he is uber-compassionate he is also not effective at much of anything.  But I definitely think that the diagram is not the proper course against Odium and is likely strongly influenced by Odium.

[Aleksiel]

In the day T has most compassion days, he basically only drools on himself and this doesn't strike me as saving the world ability.

 

Honestly, this whole intelligence/compassion swings don't seem as a boon to me. Shouldn't T have the capacity to save the world at all days? How is this fluctuation helpful unless meant to show he needs to be both to save the world and this day he must use his intellect, the next it's compassion that the world needs. 

[Kobold King]

That's an interesting thought... as readers we all made assumptions about what this character's boon was. Assumptions about a Brandon Sanderson novel are always wrong.

Also, I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm pretty sure it's OK to give precise names as long as you give a warning and format spoilers with spoiler tags.

[Exthalion]

Might the curse then be the fact that they aren't pared properly? We have seen that most of the main characters can be both intelligent and compassionate, and that their intelligence informs how they practice their compassion.

[Shardbearer]

I'm of the opinion that he needs both. He got the one super intellegient day to create the diagram. Maybe he'll need a super compassionate day to properly act on it. Though he'd probably be so stupid he wouldn't be able to do anything but drool on himself, so maybe more of a moderately compassionate day.

[Moogle]

However, what if that was the curse? What if it was the quality he expresses on his "off days" which is the true capacity to save the world? This quality is compassion, which grows almost crippling when his mind is weak.

 

When Taravangian is feeling particularly compassionate, he literally drools. He is incapable of speaking or acting. If this is the 'capacity' to save the world, I'd argue that Taravangian got a pretty raw deal.

[Numb]

What if the capacity has nothing to do with the intelligence/compassion? Well I don't mean nothing but instead what if the Nightwatcher gave the world what it needed to bond against Odium. Dalinar's visions always talk about uniting them which I took as not only the radiants but all the sentient races on Roshar. There will always be war as long as the Listerners are viewed as lesser(Spren no longer bonding with them willingly?) and the Amians hated/fear. So what if through Taravangians extreme actions the Radiants/People realize they need to change and not become like that. Odium wouldn't even have a conduit to fight humanity if the Listerners were at peace with them.

 

I don't see Sanderson as a kind of guy where the ends justify the means which is exactly what Taravangian is but at the same time using him as a stepping stone to achieve something greater sounds very plausible. Sanderson also talks about how he liked the concept of TLR but couldn't really build him well enough. Taravangian seems perfect for that. That would mean Taravangian's boon is that he'll save the world, his curse is that he'll become hated/die/forsake who he is(He seemed like a nice guy before all this) to achieve it.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Numb

[Daishi5]

When Taravangian is feeling particularly compassionate, he literally drools. He is incapable of speaking or acting. If this is the 'capacity' to save the world, I'd argue that Taravangian got a pretty raw deal.

 

I would think that the compassion is more of a defense against Odium.  It isn't that the compassion itself does something, but the compassion could help guard him against being corrupted or led astray.   It may be that his curse is that he needs and has both, but he does not posses them at the same time. 

[Haradion Drogon]

I suspect his actions will end up unifying the world against him, bringing together others, so that they have something to fight against. Zero requiem style, if any one has seen Code Geass.

[Aleksiel]

My question is: shouldn't T have the capacity to save the world at all days? That's what he asked for. He can't be more capable some days and less capable other days; it doesn't make sense to me.

 

So, does he need intelligence some days and compassion other days? Or is there something else going on?

[Observer]

Keep this in mind people: Curses are always cognitive, while boons do not have to be. Vargo hasn't mentioned a physical thing he was given, so we can at least strike that from the possibility list. Up to this point, it's seemed like the Nightwatcher at least makes a token effort to make a Curse that a person has to grow around as a person to accomplish things in life. This says to me that She gave him the power to save the world, but gave him a block to force him to grow around it and become a better person. In this, I suppose we need a pro/con tally.

 

Compassion could:

 

- Lead to him deciding to not enslave the Parshmen. Much like when he is intelligent, he likely would not give a pile of chull dung about what works, and would do what he could to free them all. This would actually help a lot, though by now it's probably too late, and has been for a while.

 

- Inspire. Odium can't gain a purchase on a mind that feels no hate, and so it is quite possible that as a compassionate leader, Vargo could help pull everybody out from underneath Odium's heel.

 

Intelligence could:

 

- Save the world through logic. This assumes that Nightwatcher is chill with everybody dying, despite her usual preferences. This doesn't feel like her to me, but everybody will have an opinion.

 

- Help him see what is to come and stop it. Pretty obvious.

 

The solution here is, obviously, just to give him both at once. The growing comes in the inversion. He can't just save everybody with limitless compassion and intelligence, he needs to learn how to balance them out, and to learn self-control. When intelligent, he butchers pretty much everything because he can't use it properly, and he can't see his compassionate selves as useful, and doesn't even bother preparing anything for them to do. For lack of a better conclusion, I'm going to say that the Nightwatcher threw Taravangian out there as a last gambit, somebody with potentially Shardic foresight, but without the power to piss off Odium. She decided to give him the two attributes needed to save the world, but made them come seperately, so that he would have to learn to work with himself, and to control both sides. Just my $0.02

Edited April 1, 2014 by Observer

[Lightflame]

Well, somebody theorized on tumblr (Megan, I think) that his boon was the compassion and intelligence need to save the world, but his curse was that he couldn't have them both at the same time. That sounds perfect to me.

[Aleksiel]

Well, somebody theorized on tumblr (Megan, I think) that his boon was the compassion and intelligence need to save the world, but his curse was that he couldn't have them both at the same time. That sounds perfect to me.

 

This would basically mean he doesn't have the capacity to save the world, hence he didn't get the boon he asked for, which can't be the case. You get a boon and a curse doesn't interfere with it, else that'd essentially eliminate the boon. 

Edited April 1, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Lightflame]

This would basically mean he doesn't have the capacity to save the world, hence he didn't get the boon he asked for, which can't be the case. You get a boon and a curse doesn't interfere with it, else that'd essentially eliminate the boon. 

I think it was "Intelligence can stop what's coming and compassion can save the world, but he can't have them both at the same time."

[Aleksiel]

I think it was "Intelligence can stop what's coming and compassion can save the world, but he can't have them both at the same time."

 

He literally drools all over himself on his most compassionate days, so he doesn't have the capacity to do anything at those times.

I think there's something else to this only I can't quite figure it out.

[Swimmingly]

Maybe there's a threshold in his compassion where his absolute empathy let's him understand and interact with people, just as there's a threshold where his genius starts spitting out good ideas despite the lack of compassion.

[Aleksiel]

May be, but from the little we know Nightwatcher's boons are permanent, so Vargo should have the capacity to save the world at any given day.

[Observer]

He literally drools all over himself on his most compassionate days, so he doesn't have the capacity to do anything at those times.

I think there's something else to this only I can't quite figure it out.

 

Can you deny that his smarter selves could probably spend a little time finding a use for their dumber ones? His compassionate self isn't going to help on his own, his intelligent self can't help on his own, but if they could just find a way to collaborate, things might actually work out.

 

EDIT: So....maybe Vargo's lesson is true trust?

Edited April 1, 2014 by Observer

[Swimmingly]

Not necessarily. He might have the capacity to be smart enough to save the world any day, but once he wakes up in the morning, the waveform collapses, and he only has the capacity to save the world the following day, because his intelligence/compassion seems to follow a pseudorandom but plottable pattern.

[Aleksiel]

Can you deny that his smarter selves could probably spend a little time finding a use for their dumber ones? His compassionate self isn't going to help on his own, his intelligent self can't help on his own, but if they could just find a way to collaborate, things might actually work out.

 

No, however I argue that this doesn't fit the way Nightwatcher's boons are supposed to work.

[Observer]

I'm just saying, would he still have his compassion problem if he could leave instructions from his more compassionate selves around? Like, the Diagram, but for his own self?

EDIT: Problem is, I'm at a loss. We have something that looks like a curse, but no obvious boon, and they're not even supposed to be related. I'm working with what I've got, but do know that I don't believe a word I'm typing.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Observer

[Dalenthas]

I wrote something up about this on the Wild Mass Guessing page of TV Tropes for The Stormlight Archive.

Also, you have to remember that the Nightwatcher doesn't necessarily give you what you want, you ask for a boon and she gives you what you feel you deserve. Sometimes it's good, sometimes, not so much...

[Crysanja]

guess it depends if the evil forces are more based on Spren or something else.

 

some Spren seem to be strongly based on feelings.

T. more or less spread fear and war around the world. this propably allways results in hatred.

 

if thouse emotions attract "evil" Spren then he might be aiding Odium so far.

 

 

Spren are powered and attracted by theire attunement. if you attract lots of "evil" Spren, alot can go wrong.