Hoid's Ultimate Aim

[SpankyMacMuffin]

I read an interesting theory about hoid attempting to create a complete piece of adonalsium from his various interventions across the cosmere, and it got me thinking about Hoid's overall aims. Apologies if this has or is being discussed elsewhere, as you can see I am new to the forum.

At present, I am beginning to question whether hoid is in fact the ultimate antagonist in the cosmere.

We already know he has attained at least the second heightening, as evidenced by his new found perfect pitch. While not a shard bearer on roshar, the fact that he was not threatened by jasnah, both a bearer and a radiant suggests he has as yet unrevealed powers on roshar. Moreover his ability to elsecall jasnah is at present unexplained. We can infer from Brandon's hint that hoid has a metal he should not have. Whether this is a piece of lerassium, atium, or as I suspect one or more hemallurgic spikes (perhaps explaining vin's reticence to approach him) he has at least some power from Scadrial. His involvement in emperor's soul and elantris I am less sure of, perhaps someone more knowledgable can flesh this out. He is, at present, arguably the most powerful non shard in the cosmere.

While I have largely considered him a benevolent character, I wonder if this is merely an assumption, and his actions thus far have only appeared that way as they have assisted characters we do like. Hoid undoubtedly pulls strings across worlds (he did after all directly put the events of emperor's soul into place by turning in shai) and it could be the case that he has only acted as he has to influence events in order to achieve an end goal of his own. If he is attempting to gather the powers of all 16 shards, could it in fact be to become the ultimate power in the cosmere, uniting/usurping the place of the various shards? In the same way sazed was able to balance seemingly contrasting shards, hoid may be of the belief he can best control the cosmere by uniting them all. He has stated openly to dalinar that he would have no qualms watching a world destroyed to suit his aims, and perhaps he would similarly have no problem destroying the entire cosmere, to reform it without shards, but one complete and balanced ruling force. It may be up to those of the seventeenth shard, or indeed regular mortals across the cosmere to prevent this.

[SpankyMacMuffin]

Re-reading my post, it is a little messy. All over the place really. It's just a theory I'm forming and seem unable to properly express

[Tempus]

I don't buy it, to be honest. A few reasons.

 

1.  We have no reason to believe Hoid is trying to reform Adonalsium. There is literally no hard evidence, and the soft evidence is really stretching it.

 

2. Hoid is Brandon's character. He's one of the first characters Brandon write about, he pops up everywhere, he's obviously Brandon's favourite. Brandon is, frankly, a huge horking optimist, idealist, all around guy who wants to believe the best of people. This is evident all over his writing. Would the character he likes most, identifies with most, really be the bad guy? No. He might be strict at times, but I'm sure like most/all of Brandon's bad guys, he's just doing what he thinks is right. Like the Lord Ruler. Or Hrathen. Or Amaram. Or Bluefingers. Or Eshonai. Doubtful he's the antagonist at all. Many of the MCs are underdog characters, who like to break rules. Hoid's apparent character fits right in there with Raoden, Lightsong, Siri, Shai, Kaladin, Shallan, etc, etc in that respect.

 

3. Hoid is gathering powerful artifacts, some you didn't mention in fact. But he's not the only one. We know there's the 17th Shard. We know there's Nazh, and Khriss. We know there are the Ghostbloods. There is the recipient of the letter. There's the Terriswoman. There are many worldhopping shard-aware personnages with mysterious agendas, and frankly, Hoid has been one of the most helpful, least violent, most forthcoming groups of them all. He hasn't done anything but gather information, spread information, and pick up a few odds and ends from various planets. And generally been a helpful guy while doing it.

 

4. Hoid in Liar of Partinel was a nice guy.

[Tazren]

3. Hoid did say that while he didn't mind helping out in WoR and didn't have any grudges against people there, he'd see Roshar burn if that's what it took to achieve his aim. The second letter also implies that Hoid has left chaos in his wake. That he has been helpful to the protagonists so far seems more concidental than anything. They haven't been in his way. Until one of our protagonists is, we don't really know how far Hoid's seemingly good intentions go.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Tazren

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

3. Hoid did say that while he didn't mind helping out in WoR and didn't have any grudges against people there, he'd see Roshar burn if that's what it took to achieve his aim. The second letter also implies that Hoid has left chaos in his wake. That he has been helpful to the protagonists so far seems more concidental than anything. They haven't been in his way. Until one of our protagonists is, we don't really know how far Hoid's seemingly good intentions go.

 

To me the whole "I'll watch your world burn" thing is an indicator that he's NOT the main antagonist of the story lines. If he was, 1 I don't think he would have admitted that to Dalinar, 2 it says to me that he is trying to help when and where he can, but he REALLY wants to stop the "bad" shards like Odium... maybe kill them and splinter the shards and he will watch but not help Roshar burn if it helps him achieve that goal. 

[ram433]

I would buy him trying to put Adonalsium back together. From his conversation with Dalinar in WoK I got the impression that either Adonalsium shattering was his fault or that he at least partially blamed himself. Seems like maybe he is trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again to fix his mistake. I really thought that this a while back when i thought maybe he was the author of the ars arcanum ,but I think we have a WoB that he is not. Seems like maybe hemolurgy could be used to stitch the pieces back together. But that is pure speculation. 

 

I think that would explain his "world burning" talk. He could easily see putting Adonalsium back to be worth sacrificing a few worlds.

[Tazren]

To me the whole "I'll watch your world burn" thing is an indicator that he's NOT the main antagonist of the story lines. If he was, 1 I don't think he would have admitted that to Dalinar, 2 it says to me that he is trying to help when and where he can, but he REALLY wants to stop the "bad" shards like Odium... maybe kill them and splinter the shards and he will watch but not help Roshar burn if it helps him achieve that goal. 

 

I didn't mean that he has to be the main antagonist, but he certainly doesn't have to be good. He could just be in it for himself. Or he could work for a "greater good" where he'd destroy one planet with a second thought if it saved two others.

[Numb]

I think the whole "I'll watch your world burn" is more a way of Hoid getting through to Dalinar that he mustn't rely on Hoid. Hoid seems like a nice guy that wants to help but doesn't always know how or isn't always able to so instead of letting Dalinar down he pushes him away with that line.

[ChimeraRuin]

We can infer from Brandon's hint that hoid has a metal he should not have. Whether this is a piece of lerassium, atium, or as I suspect one or more hemallurgic spikes (perhaps explaining vin's reticence to approach him) he has at least some power from Scadrial

 

 

I had asked in a q&a once why Vin's instinct had her skip meeting Hoid, and if Ruin was aware of him. He gave an extended RAFO as an answer. This make makes me think of that, and I hadn't considered hemalurgy. This i like. 

[Vortaan]

I figure Hoid the same way I figure the Lord Ruler: a well-intentioned extremist. It's something that is very prevalent in Brandon's books, probably because of the previously mentioned optimism.I suspect Hoid's statement to Dalinar is because he's been in the situation before, where someone did count on him and his own goals made it end poorly. I think this is the same reason Kelsier and Hoid wouldn't get along... and it makes me suspect that Vasher and Hoid would also not be the best of friends.

[Observer]

If we knew more about Adonalsium, it would help. Hoid talks to Dalinar about how, if you take a thing apart and piece it back together, it likely won't be the same as it once was. This makes the most sense if Adonalsium wasn't all that bad, and Hoid is against the reassembly. He himself sits outside of the spectrums of any planet's morality, hence the world burning comment. On each Shardworld, the Shards tend to influence the idea of "good". On Scadrial, surviving, Kelsier's mandate, is the goal, in line with Preservation. However, the things we were okay with Elend doing would be "evil" on Roshar, because Honor sits there. Hoid is totally outside any of those Shardworld's influences, and whatever it is he wants, he's telling Dalinar that is doesn't line up with the Rosharian goals, and he'll gladly kill them all if that's what it takes, because one measly planet isn't worth the whole Cosmere (Honestly this is an odd contrast, seeing as he's opposed to letting Rayse run free in there). I doubt he's the main antagonist. Yes, he may be a problem, and obstacle. At the end of the day however, he seems to be easily the most benevolent of any of the worldhoppers, though his goals are obviously questionable enough to warrant everybody chasing him down.

[Vortaan]

If we knew more about Adonalsium, it would help. Hoid talks to Dalinar about how, if you take a thing apart and piece it back together, it likely won't be the same as it once was. This makes the most sense if Adonalsium wasn't all that bad, and Hoid is against the reassembly. He himself sits outside of the spectrums of any planet's morality, hence the world burning comment. On each Shardworld, the Shards tend to influence the idea of "good". On Scadrial, surviving, Kelsier's mandate, is the goal, in line with Preservation. However, the things we were okay with Elend doing would be "evil" on Roshar, because Honor sits there. Hoid is totally outside any of those Shardworld's influences, and whatever it is he wants, he's telling Dalinar that is doesn't line up with the Rosharian goals, and he'll gladly kill them all if that's what it takes, because one measly planet isn't worth the whole Cosmere (Honestly this is an odd contrast, seeing as he's opposed to letting Rayse run free in there). I doubt he's the main antagonist. Yes, he may be a problem, and obstacle. At the end of the day however, he seems to be easily the most benevolent of any of the worldhoppers, though his goals are obviously questionable enough to warrant everybody chasing him down.

 

Do we know enough about the other worldhoppers to make the claim that Hoid is the most benevolent? I mean, we haven't seen him directly harm anyone and indirectly he's helped a few people... but we don't have a fixed "this Worldhopper killed/caused this event/stole this MacGuffin" moment for the others yet.

[Observer]

In terms of what we've seen Hoid do and what we've seen Mraize/The Ghostbloods do, as well as the Seventeenth Shard's desire to just let Odium respawn-murder the whole Roshar system, I'd say he's as close to benevolent as we've seen.

[Vortaan]

In terms of what we've seen Hoid do and what we've seen Mraize/The Ghostbloods do, as well as the Seventeenth Shard's desire to just let Odium respawn-murder the whole Roshar system, I'd say he's as close to benevolent as we've seen.

 

We know what Mraize is doing on Roshar, but not why. He could very well be working to prevent the Desolation, or is trying to perhaps hunt Odium? I'm withholding judgement on them until we know the purpose of the Ghostbloods, as they could very well be well-intentioned extremists too. As for the 17th Shard... we know they have a policy of non-intervention, but their overall goal is still unknown. I honestly don't think we have enough info on any of them to make a judgement on who is more benevolent than whom, particularly given Hoid's statement that he'd watch Roshar burn if it furthered his goals... makes me wonder what else he's done that we don't know about.

[Observer]

Well, we might as well make a list of what we do know.

1: He was a pretty nice guy on Yolen, though it's been a loooooooong time since then.

2: In Elantris he helped get weapons to the Elantrians.

3: In Warbreaker he tells Siri the history of the land.

4: In Mistborn he acts as an informant to Keliser, takes a Lerasium bead, tries to speak with Vin, and hangs out with his worldhopper buddies at their wedding.

5: In Way of Kings he searches/hides from Odium, talks to Dalinar about the Cosmere, spends his time on the Plains insulting people, tells Kaladin a story and gives him a magic flute, and waits around for Taln.

6: In Words of Radiance he talks to little Shallan and pokes around about her powers, does more insulting, talks to Dalinar more about the Cosmere, tells Dalinar that he isn't to be trusted before vanishing again, and is waiting around for teleportations because he can.

 

It's not a whole lot that we have on him TBH, but put together, mostly leaning on his interactions with Dalinar, he seems to me to be an overall okay guy. Yes, he'd kill to get what he wants, but that's because of how huge the Cosmere is and as a way to explain to Dalinar that they don't have the same goals. The fact that he firmly believes that he is in the right, alongside the way he tells Dalinar not to trust him, and his dislike of Rayse being left on Roshar, I get the feeling he isn't as awful as he seems.

 

 

But this is kind of irrelevant to debate, and I feel dumb for starting this train of thought. We don't know enough as-is to pin down Hoid's personality, so this is a kind of dumb thing to get stuck on. We should probably take a tally of everything he's got and done, and then try and figure out what a person could do with it all, and I mean literally every useful use, and then look at it.

[trendkill]

I've been toying with the idea of compiling every Hoid quote in one place, but I haven't had the time. I think that would be a good place to start.

[Vortaan]

Well, we might as well make a list of what we do know.

1: He was a pretty nice guy on Yolen, though it's been a loooooooong time since then.

2: In Elantris he helped get weapons to the Elantrians.

3: In Warbreaker he tells Siri the history of the land.

4: In Mistborn he acts as an informant to Keliser, takes a Lerasium bead, tries to speak with Vin, and hangs out with his worldhopper buddies at their wedding.

5: In Way of Kings he searches/hides from Odium, talks to Dalinar about the Cosmere, spends his time on the Plains insulting people, tells Kaladin a story and gives him a magic flute, and waits around for Taln.

6: In Words of Radiance he talks to little Shallan and pokes around about her powers, does more insulting, talks to Dalinar more about the Cosmere, tells Dalinar that he isn't to be trusted before vanishing again, and is waiting around for teleportations because he can.

 

It's not a whole lot that we have on him TBH, but put together, mostly leaning on his interactions with Dalinar, he seems to me to be an overall okay guy. Yes, he'd kill to get what he wants, but that's because of how huge the Cosmere is and as a way to explain to Dalinar that they don't have the same goals. The fact that he firmly believes that he is in the right, alongside the way he tells Dalinar not to trust him, and his dislike of Rayse being left on Roshar, I get the feeling he isn't as awful as he seems.

 

 

But this is kind of irrelevant to debate, and I feel dumb for starting this train of thought. We don't know enough as-is to pin down Hoid's personality, so this is a kind of dumb thing to get stuck on. We should probably take a tally of everything he's got and done, and then try and figure out what a person could do with it all, and I mean literally every useful use, and then look at it.

 

This actually isn't a bad list of things, because we can assume some things about why he is where is at the times he is. For example, he's on Sel when Raoden figures out how to fix AonDor. This might seem like it's not a big deal, but literally no other Elantran figured it out. It's also the only planet we -know- has splintered Shards on it at that time. Hoid may very well have been investigating the second factor, and his strange ability to show up where he needs to be brought him to Kae at exactly the right moment to see an entire system of Investiture get revived. This could end up being very important to his theorized goal of reconstructing Adonalsium. 

 

Now we go to Scadrial, which is again a pretty important Cosmere event. This is the only place we've seen two Shards being held by one person, and it's probably the first time that happened as well. This is hugely important for Hoid's theorized goal, so again there is probably a large amount of Hoid's ability plus his own investigation happening. I suppose the major consideration here is if Hoid knew Ruin was working to get free at this particular time. I have to wonder what Hoid would have done if Ruin had won? Would he then have tried to get Vin on his side and have her move to Roshar to counter Odium, or perhaps steer Ati that way?

 

Warbreaker actually seems like a pretty unimportant event Cosmere wide. Is there anything that happens here that is one of a kind.... oh, right, Nightblood. Nightblood seems incredibly important, but not because he's a sentient Invested object. Afterall, we now know Shardblades are too. What's important about Nightblood is that he can consume Investiture just like human beings can. This doesn't seem too important, until you wonder... what's the upper limit on what Nightblood can absorb? Could he, in fact, absorb a Shard? Is Nightblood the -perfect- weapon to destroy Rayse with? When Nightblood's Command comes up against Odium's Intent, which wins out?

 

Stormlight Chronicles so far seems a bit personal, and less related to Adonalsium. This is where we find out about his grudge against Rayse. We also know that if Roshar burns, but somehow Odium is defeated, this is a win in Hoid's book. So... is this personal, or is this tied into his overall goal? Is there just one, or is Hoid playing a much deeper game?

 

This is all theory, obviously, but isn't it interesting how often Hoid is around for Cosmere-first events? Granted we don't have enough information to guarantee they all are, but... Seems pretty likely it might be, huh?

[happyman]

5: In Way of Kings he searches/hides from Odium, talks to Dalinar about the Cosmere, spends his time on the Plains insulting people, tells Kaladin a story which prompts Kaladin to start taking responsibility for his life and start using his powers, notably including speaking the second ideal, and gives him a magic flute, and waits around for Taln.

6: In Words of Radiance he talks to little Shallan and pokes around about her powers, tells her that she is doing the right thing by fighting against the anger in her father, does more insulting, talks to Dalinar more about the Cosmere, tells Dalinar that he isn't to be trusted before vanishing again, and is waiting around for teleportations because he can.  Somewhere in there he also tells Kalading the story about Fleet which directly inspires Kaladin to return to his oaths and stick to them long enough to revive Syl and speak the Third Ideal, and fully embrace being a Knight Radiant.

 

These added bits, I believe, might shed a bit more light on what Hoid is trying to do.  I think he honestly wants to save Roshar, at least partly because it is the best way to defeat Odium, but he doesn't want anybody consciously relying on his help, and he thinks its destruction might be necessary.  Given his other actions, though, I am guessing that he sincerely hopes it is not.

Edited March 28, 2014 by happyman

[Odium's_Shard]

Hoid is either a brilliant mastermind that can clearly see how everything fits together, and nudges pieces in the right direction in hopes of defeating Odium, or he is a brilliantly gifted agent of his own design that he is seeking to achieve. If he has a secret agenda, it will become more obvious as more of his interventions are noticed.

[Observer]

Hoid's conversation about Gibletish makes me think that he fears the reassembly of Adonalsium though. That's one of the only reasons I can think of for why he would talk about putting humpty together again would probably make it come out very differently than when it first was. He seems to be traveling around, growing in power as he picks up most magic systems and grabs a couple of keepsakes as well, which just now made me wonder. What would happen if he combined them all together? Would he get a mini-Adonalsium? Is Hoid quietly testing out, if only for himself, what would happen using a small-scale model?

[Levian]

I sincerely hope this isn't true, but I can see how it would be possible for Hoid to become something comparable to The Lord Ruler. Good intention, crazy amounts of power, but going about things the wrong way.

 

So far as we've seen the most powerful abilities are only given to antagonists. With Hoid eventually becoming a PoV character in...Steelheart is it? I have no idea... I can't imagine a character with what will probably be every ability in the Cosmere being a protagonist, unless he is directly fighting a Shard rather than other people. He would just be too powerful, and a Shard is the only thing that could even put up a fight against him.

[Odium's_Shard]

This makes me potentially excited for the ways in which he could combine Investiture cycles (that is, if Investiture cycles remain the same when away from their planet). But if Hoid gathered enough Splinters... could he make an Adonalsium, a completely idealogically balanced Shard, of roughly the same power as Odium, or other Shards?

 

Who picked up Honor's Shard? Or the Shard that was dropped on Nalthis? If it was Odium, that's worrying (but also slightly delaying because it would somewhat negate his ideal, hatred). But if Hoid gathered at least some of the splinters... I wonder how much he knows, about the true nature of the magic systems, and what could be done with them.

 

Odium's_Shard

[Vortaan]

This makes me potentially excited for the ways in which he could combine Investiture cycles (that is, if Investiture cycles remain the same when away from their planet). But if Hoid gathered enough Splinters... could he make an Adonalsium, a completely idealogically balanced Shard, of roughly the same power as Odium, or other Shards?

 

Who picked up Honor's Shard? Or the Shard that was dropped on Nalthis? If it was Odium, that's worrying (but also slightly delaying because it would somewhat negate his ideal, hatred). But if Hoid gathered at least some of the splinters... I wonder how much he knows, about the true nature of the magic systems, and what could be done with them.

 

Odium's_Shard

 

Honor's Shard was Splintered, I think we have WoB on that. We do have WoB that Odium doesn't take up other Shards because he likes his Intent just the way it is. Also, Shard dropped on Nalthis? Pretty sure Endowment is still alive, isn't s/he?

[Odium's_Shard]

My mistake, it must have been Sel (I get mixed up between worlds, its a long time since I've done much Realmatic work on Shardworlds other than Roshar and Scadrial). I think Dominion is known to have been dropped there or something (or am I just getting seriously confused...?)

 

Actually, I am reading on the Wiki that Dominion was also Splintered (something to do with Skaze), but I didn't remember this. In which case, the point about Hoid and Splinters stands.

 

Odium's_Shard

[Lightning]

This quote from Brandon

Hoid appears in that same chapter, but Vin doesn't meet him. Something he does spooks her. She's just too darn observant for her own good.

seems to suggest that Hoid was up to good when he was going to meet with Vin.

Edited March 29, 2014 by Lightning