Small Theory (Spoiler)

[Aashyma]

Does anyone else think that the curse Dalinar received from the Nightwatcher was Renarin's illness?

Quoting the relevant text from Chapter Sixty One, Right For Wrong:

What did Renarin think? Would he condemn his father for such an egregious sin? Dalinar forced

himself to look up and meet his son’s bespectacled eyes.

It just seemed odd to me that he should feel so very guilty about telling Renarin-although really it's more of a gut feeling than a theory.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Aashyma

[SOM1else]

I always thought that losing the memories of his wife was the curse and we never find out what his gift was. of course it doesn't say that in the book but I'm pretty sure it doesn't say it' not

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I'd actually I'd say it's the other way. That he asked to have his memories of his wife taken from him. And the idea that his curse was son's illness has some interesting ideas behind it. It makes a great curse, but if we assume that the Nightwatcher is a force of Cultivation (like I do), it begs the question of what this is supposed to cultivate in Dalinar. Family loyalty? Fatherly attributes?

[Aashyma]

It makes a great curse, but if we assume that the Nightwatcher is a force of Cultivation (like I do), it begs the question of what this is supposed to cultivate in Dalinar. Family loyalty? Fatherly attributes?

A realisation that a man doesn't need to battle to win honour?

on a side note: I call Shallan healing Renarin's blood illness-her element is obviously blood as shown by her Soulcasting the goblet into blood.

Chapter 45 Shadesmar:

She fell back and hit her bed, back in her room. Beside her, the goblet on her nightstand melted,

the glass becoming red liquid, dropping the three spheres inside to the nightstand’s flooded top. The red

liquid poured over the sides of the nightstand, splashing to the floor. Shallan pulled back, horrified.

The goblet had been changed into blood.

[Musicspren]

I'd actually I'd say it's the other way. That he asked to have his memories of his wife taken from him.

One objection I have to this is that, right before the first quote about Renarin, Dalinar thinks:

Would that day never stop haunting him? Was not losing all memory of his wife enough?

If it is common knowledge that Nightwatcher gives a curse of some sort, he should know that something he requested was "not enough," and that there would be some sort of curse.

One problem I find with theorizing on Nightwatcher is that she seems to make too little sense. Magic in the Cosmere consistently makes a lot of sense when you know enough, yet Nightwatcher's blessings and curses feel rather arbitrary so far. I'm wondering if it could be connected to the essences in the Ars Arcanum. I remember reading about someone whose curse was that his eyes saw everything inverted, but that he adapted rather easily. The eyes are the body focus in the same essence as Loving/Healing; did he ask for healing, by chance (I haven't found the quote)? If Renarin's condition is the curse, that could be of blood to Dalinar both figuratively (as his child) and literally (a condition of the blood). By this reasoning, we could think that Dalinar might have asked for something about creativity or honor (those being of the same essence as blood). If the curse is the loss of memories of his wife, it's a bit harder to say which essence that would be (the second seems most likely, but that's very tenuous).

I like the theory of Shallan healing Renarin's blood illness. It would make a bit of sense.

I'm new to 17th Shard (although I've lurked without an account for a while), and it now occurs to me that perhaps my first post shouldn't have been one to disagree with the Shard of Flame...

[Aashyma]

. I remember reading about someone whose curse was that his eyes saw everything inverted, but that he adapted rather easily. The eyes are the body focus in the same essence as Loving/Healing; did he ask for healing, by chance (I haven't found the quote)?

Here it is:Interlude 7 Baxil

. “On account of my father going, my mother going, and each of my brothers

going. A few got what they wanted. Most all of them regretted the curse, save my father. He got a heap

of good cloth; sold to keep us from starving during the lurnip famine a few decades ago.”

“What was his curse?” Baxil said.

“Saw the world upside down from then on.”

Here's another relevant quote from the same chapter:

at kind of curse you’ll end up with.”

“I could phrase my request perfectly,” Baxil said.

“Doesn’t work that way,” Av said. “It’s not a game, no matter how the stories try to put it. The

Nightwatcher doesn’t trick you or twist your words. You ask a boon. She gives what she feels you

deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. Sometimes related, sometimes not.”

By this reasoning, we could think that Dalinar might have asked for something about creativity or honor (those being of the same essence as blood).

I have a semi-explanation for this: remember that Shallan's essence is almost certainly blood and that her creative skills involves taking/capturing a memory.

I'm not sure how to extend that but it may be that the rational lies that way->Dallinar, overcome with grief after his wife's death goes to Nightwatcher to have her memories removed. The Memory, falling under Shash, means that her curse is that of blood.

You can make the same reasoning for Av's father: His love for his family caused him to seek out Nightwatcher's help, pinning him as loving. As a result, his curse was that of the eyes.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Aashyma

[Musicspren]

She gives what she feels you deserve, then gives you a curse to go along with it. Sometimes related, sometimes not.

I do suspect that it's always related, and the people on Roshar just don't always follow the relation.

Dalinar, overcome with grief after his wife's death goes to Nightwatcher to have her memories removed. The Memory, falling under Shash, means that her curse is that of blood.

I still have some problem reconciling that with his thought about "Was not losing all memory of his wife enough?" However, if he asked for her to "Heal his pain at losing his wife", and the only way to accomplish that was to remove his memories of her, that would then allow for the "losing all memory" part not being expected or intended. That would also connect it to "healing", one of the aspects of Shash. It would be like Sanderson to twist it so what appears the be the curse was actually supposed to be the boon.

[Gagylpus]

I think it's highly possible that, as Musicspren suggests, the removal of memories is in fact the boon. Which makes Dalinar's trip to the Nightwatcher even more regretful. However, Renarin's sickness doesn't seem quite in line with what I imagine the Nightwatcher does - it seems like more of a curse on Renarin than Dalinar himself. Still, the OP may be correct.

Also: Musicspren, you are epic for writing a ketek related to Mistborn.

[Musicspren]

Thanks, Gagylpus, but don't give me credit for the memories idea; that was Silus, and I've been the one resisting it.

Thanks also on the ketek; I'm hoping to come up with one for each book, but they require a bit of thought.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

What about the cloth boon? The guy who got his vision turned upside asked for cloth and got it.

My thinking is that the Nightwatcher is hardly a passive entity, simply cranking out boons and curses based on a certain formula. I get the feeling is that she is either Cultivation directly, a herald, or something else. But there is most definitely an intelligence behind this.

I'm new to 17th Shard (although I've lurked without an account for a while), and it now occurs to me that perhaps my first post shouldn't have been one to disagree with the Shard of Flame...

I find this extremely funny.

And yes, Musicspren, those are epic keteks.

[Aashyma]

What about the cloth boon? The guy who got his vision turned upside asked for cloth and got it.

He did not ask for cloth on it's own, he intended to sell it so that he could feed his family during the turnip famine.

This would classify his request as loving, which in the Arcs Arcanum is the primary quality associated with the Eyes.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Aashyma

[Asha'man Logain]

I think it's highly possible that, as Musicspren suggests, the removal of memories is in fact the boon. Which makes Dalinar's trip to the Nightwatcher even more regretful. However, Renarin's sickness doesn't seem quite in line with what I imagine the Nightwatcher does - it seems like more of a curse on Renarin than Dalinar himself. Still, the OP may be correct.

Also: Musicspren, you are epic for writing a ketek related to Mistborn.

I think that Renarin was sick and dying, Dalinar asked for his son to live, his boon was a living if not healthy son, and the curse was losing his wife's memory. It kinda balances out that way. A chance for having his son in his life, who he loves, but loses his wife who he also loved.

[Aashyma]

I think that Renarin was sick and dying, Dalinar asked for his son to live, his boon was a living if not healthy son, and the curse was losing his wife's memory. It kinda balances out that way. A chance for having his son in his life, who he loves, but loses his wife who he also loved.

That makes much more sense than my theory, bravo!

[Asha'man Logain]

That makes much more sense than my theory, bravo!

Thank you, I like the symetry to that particular situation, and this is a world where symetry is very important.

[happyman]

I think that Renarin was sick and dying, Dalinar asked for his son to live, his boon was a living if not healthy son, and the curse was losing his wife's memory. It kinda balances out that way. A chance for having his son in his life, who he loves, but loses his wife who he also loved.

Dunno if it's true or not, but it's the first truly coherent theory I've heard on the subject. Well done.

[Nikita]

What about the possibility that the Nightwatcher is running a scheme which trades characteristics between people (e.g. make Dalinar forgetful and give Shallan an enhanced memory)? Then your bane becomes someone else's boon.

[Zas678]

That's very interesting. So somewhere, there is theoretically a man who had visions of an upside down world and wanted it fixed, and in exchange, he gave a thing of cloth to the Nightwatcher.

So then, when Interlude's-friend-father person needed a thing of cloth, all he needed to sacrifice for his vision. (Note- I don't think that it is one person trades for one person. That was just the easiest way to explain it. )

That's a very intriguing idea. And it would explain why the Nightwatcher so often gives horrible punishments- because that's what people come to her to get rid of.

EDIT- Though I'm not sure that that is the reason why Shallan has such an impeccable Memory. But I do like the idea for it's mechanics.

[prehistoricman]

EDIT- Though I'm not sure that that is the reason why Shallan has such an impeccable Memory. But I do like the idea for it's mechanics.

Shallan's memories always struck me as a form of surgebinding. Her memories are mental pictures where she fixes some image in her mind that she can access later. Considering that Brandon has stated that there are parallels between magic systems, this seems like it would make a nice parallel to copperminds.

[CrazyRioter]

Shallan's never been anywhere near the Nightwatcher I don't think. If she had it would have been hinted at. I agree that her Memories are something else.

[Zas678]

No, I agree with you guys. Shallan (most likely) never saw the Nightwatcher. Her father though....

But even still, it is a lot more likely that Shallan just naturally has her awesome memory.

[Asha'man Logain]

No, I agree with you guys. Shallan (most likely) never saw the Nightwatcher. Her father though....

But even still, it is a lot more likely that Shallan just naturally has her awesome memory.

Supernaturally awesome almost certainly, especially as she loses her Memory on recording it. I wonder if she drew a spren with a perfect Memory, if that would act the same as the Ardents' measuring and documenting?