Stormfather Theory: What is his nature and his relation to Honor?

[GreyPilgrim]

I don't know if any of this has been posited yet, but this idea fascinated me. I got really excited about the Stormfather in WoR. So here's my theory/speculation about him/it.

 

He refers to himself as a sliver of Honor (well, of the Almighty, but same thing) multiple times:

 

 

"I am the one left behind," the voice said. It wasn't exactly as he'd heard it in the visions; this voice had a depth to it. A density. "I am the sliver of Him that remains. I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I...I fled. To continue as I always have. The piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel."

 

 

I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF! the voice said, sounding angry.

 

He also says:

 

 

i AM HIS...SPREN, AS YOU MIGHT SAY. NOT HIS SOUL. I AM THE MEMORY MEN CREATE FOR HIM, NOW THAT HE IS GONE. THE PERSONIFICATION OF STORMS AND THE DIVINE. I AM NO GOD. I AM BUT A SHADOW OF ONE.

 

Now, we understand that a sliver is an entity that has held most of the power of a shard for a time then released it, examples being (spoilers for Mistborn)

Vin, Rashek, and Kelsier.

If the Stormfather is a sliver, then when did he hold the power of Honor? I believe that it was when Odium killed him. 

 

When Odium killed Honor, by which we really mean he killed Tanavast, the Stormfather, who was present somehow, took up the power, did something with it, then released it. I assume that Odium did something more than just kill Tanavast; it would be lazy to just let the power sit there. So maybe he and the Stormfather clashed or something, and that is when the Stormfather fled, as he said.

 

Now, based on his name, the obvious relation between him and the storms, and what he says about it that I have quoted, I think that he threw Honor's power into the highstorm/s. I do not know when Honor was killed (before the Last Desolation, or whenever), or if the highstorm/s existed before his death. Either the Stormfather created the storm then with the power, or added it to what already existed. We have WoB that the highstorms are a combination of something meteorological and something magical (obviously, on the magic), so I guess that it is the second, that the Stormfather added the power to the already existing storms, making them much more violent, then he became the sliver, the remainder of the Almighty for humanity.

 

There are numerous potential implications if this is all correct; about the nature of the spren, Stormlight, etc. I believe there must be a definite amount of Stormlight that is continually recycled by the highstorm/s. Is that the power of Honor himself? It would make sense.

 

Another question is, What does this mean of spren, particularly bonding spren? They are very similar to Seons and Skaze on Sel, from what we know, splinters of Shardic power. Did they exist before the death of Honor? Could they have been part of what the Stormfather did with the power?

 

These may all very well be questions that have been answered already, but I don't really feel like searching that hard.

 

If all this has been posited already, feel free to ignore. If not, do you agree, or have anything to refute? Am I hopelessly wrong?

[name_here]

First, spren in general apparently are cognative entities created by humans personifying forces or events, and not necessarily empowered specifically by a Shard. Bonding spren predate the death of Honor, because he was surprised by the creation of the Knights Radiant, which necessarily means he was alive to be surprised. Also, I'm personally pretty convinced that Highstorms have been around since well before the death of Honor, since there are all these convenient natural formations to shield cities from Highstorms and Nohandon's city was built in one.

 

There is the whole cymatics business with the city formations, which could be taken to imply they're shaped like that for reasons other than Highstorm protection. but I'm with Jasnah on not trusting that. Being able to produce patterns that correspond to the cities does not by itself prove anything; it's only meaningful if those are the only patterns which emerge, or if there's a consistent rule to getting patterns that match the city shapes. Given an arbitrary plate and frequency, you could probably get almost any pattern. At most, being able to get the cymatics pattern for city formations demonstrates that they're fairly stable.

 

As for my theory on the Stormfather, I think he's the spren of Highstorms, and was around before Honor's death and managed to recover a chunk of Honor's power on death.

[GreyPilgrim]

I agree that the Stormfather is the spren of highstorms or something similar. His description of himself seems to indicate that he is sort of an Honorspren, as opposed to and honorspren (personifying Honor himself and not the idea of honor).

 

What's interesting, however, is how he is able to affect the Physical Realm so directly. From what we have seen, spren need to have a bond in order to do so, with the exclusion of the few spren who can convey basic ideas (windspren, and another that I cannot recall at the moment; on a related note, windspren we know are related to honorspren, so it makes sense that they are on the more intelligent side). Obviously, the Stormfather is now bonded to Dalinar, and per WoB has been for a some time, likely since Dalinar has started having visions. But before that, at least in the Era of Solitude, he was not bonded. Could he still have been holding a large part of Honor's power? But, if so, he wouldn't be a true sliver, not as we understand them, as he never gave up the power.

 

So, I guess the question comes down to whether or not Brandon trying to trick us by using a word he has told us means one thing in a different way.

[Thought]

The Stormfather's use of the term "sliver" is very curious and given how careful Sanderson has been about such terms in the past, I would be hesitant to ignore the significance so easily. If the Stormfather is a Sliver, then he can not be a splinter (aka, spren), and vice versa. However, he also binds with Dalinar to make the latter a Knight's Radiant, which is a rather sprenish thing to do. Yet if the Stormfather is the Bondsmith spren (and it is implied that, yes indeed, all bondsmiths had been tied to him), and the Bondsmiths lived prior to Honor's demise, then how could the Stormfather be a splinter of Tanavast created when Odium killed him? And what of the other super-spren that we're introduced to (Nightwatcher, the one responsible for the Thrill, and the one responsible for Death Rattles)?

 

We have a lot of conflicting terms concepts here, so I doubt we're meant to find a simple answer.

[Maresia]

Can it be that he use the power of the shard to make the Oathpact as a way to prevent Odium from dominate Roshar after Tanavhast was killed? and the HE shattered it (creating the 10 honorbladeS) to make sure no one cancel the Oathpact? Im in the second book of mistborn, so im not that good with Shards knowledge, but is this possible?

[Awesomeness Summoned]

There is WoB that Honor and the Heralds were present at the Oathpact so it couldn't have been created after Tanavast was killed.

[Thought]

I would like to suggest that, when Tanavast died, his cognitive aspect persisted (much like Kelsier's did). As his cognitive aspect no longer held the power of Honor, it became a sliver. Because slivers have residual power, and because he was not just a cognitive aspect, he was thus close enough to a spren to be able to bond with humans.

 

This fits with the Stormfather calling itself a sliver, and saying that it is a spren of sorts (rather than just a straight-up spren). It doesn't answer the question, though, of what spren the Bondsmiths joined with prior to Tanavast's demise.

[GreyPilgrim]

That's an interesting idea about Tanavast. I feel, however, that Odium would likely have taken precautions against his doing something like entering the Cognitive Realm. We have seen in Mistborn that those that do so (as you said, Kelsier), can still affect people of the Physical Realm. I feel like Odium would want to avoid that at all costs.

[xbauks]

The Stormfather's use of the term "sliver" is very curious and given how careful Sanderson has been about such terms in the past, I would be hesitant to ignore the significance so easily. If the Stormfather is a Sliver, then he can not be a splinter (aka, spren), and vice versa. However, he also binds with Dalinar to make the latter a Knight's Radiant, which is a rather sprenish thing to do. Yet if the Stormfather is the Bondsmith spren (and it is implied that, yes indeed, all bondsmiths had been tied to him), and the Bondsmiths lived prior to Honor's demise, then how could the Stormfather be a splinter of Tanavast created when Odium killed him? And what of the other super-spren that we're introduced to (Nightwatcher, the one responsible for the Thrill, and the one responsible for Death Rattles)?

We have a lot of conflicting terms concepts here, so I doubt we're meant to find a simple answer.

Something to clarify: splinters can be created voluntarily by shards. They do not need to be splintered in order for splinters to form.

That said, it is possible for the Stormfather to be a splinter and a sliver. He mentioned that he was present when the Almighty was killed. He may have taken up the Shard dropped by Tanavast and then fearing for his life, dropped it. Odium splinters Honour. Stormfather is a sliver and a spren. Everything checks out. This is of course assuming that spren can actually take up a shard.

[Thought]

Quite right, xbauks, that a splinter can be willfully and peacefully created (the Divine Breaths being the most clear and prominent specimen we've had  thus far). However, the Stormfather says that he's the remains of Honor, indicating that if he is a splinter, then it was one that, at the very least, was created at Honor's demise.

 

However, slivers have previously been specifically defined as human and as a sort of conceptual opposite of splinters. A splinter that held a shards power would, seemingly, just be an unclaimed shard.

 

GreyPilgrim, Odium seems far more concerns with Shards than people. If he had a choice between killing a Shardholder but leaving the Shard intact and shattering the shard but leaving the shardholder alive, it seems likely that he'd choose the latter. After all, on Sel he left humans alive, as well as Seons and Skaze: without intact shards, they just weren't important enough for him to care.

[Cheeky-eyes]

 

 

Quite right, xbauks, that a splinter can be willfully and peacefully created (the Divine Breaths being the most clear and prominent specimen we've had  thus far).

And on the note of Divine Breath, IIRC in Daliner's visions before Honours death there was no Stormlight in the villages he visited. He noted their use of oil lamps and called it primitive. Does that imply there was no stormlight during the Desolations or were there just no ways to capture it then?

 

If the former could Stormlight be where Honour's power went, similar to Divine Breath, put there by either Honour himself or by the Stormfather. Since to become a Sliver he needs to have held the power and given it up it could be that after Honour died he took up the power and dropped it in the Highstorms as a way to protect it. It could account for the magical aspect of the Highstorms. 

[Thought]

Well, it could also simply imply a lack of mining technology/resources. Stormlight is held in gems, gems require mining and even in primitive cultures usually have a high economic value. So, they simply might not have had the tech to mine gems yet, or if they did, they might not have had the economic resources to own gems.

[Mar10]

A couple of things out of the JMHO corner.

 

I don't see how Stormfather could be THE Bondsmith spren since it is stated that there were never more than 2 or 3 and any time.  This tells me that at some point in the past there were multiple Bomdsmith KR simultaniously and it would be hard for them to all bond the same spren.

 

I like to think of Stormfather as THE Honorspren.  He has referred to Syl as his favorite child or daughter (I forget the exact phrasing).  This would also allow for him being 'created' by the people's belief in and worship of Honor (the Almighty).  This really making him a sliver of Honor in that he is the people's personification of the Almighty.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

The Stormfather had to have been around before Honor died, and each of the major events on Roshar has made a profound impact on his attitude and how he interacts with Roshar. Jasnah shed some light on the subject in Chapter 3: Pattern

 

 

"The Stormfather, of course, is a strnage offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking. . ."

 

I don't think that we can only attribute that to differing opinions and styles of various Vorin theologists/historians. Instead, I think that the Stormfather's nature was changing  because of his relationship to Honor and the humans. He most likely was more balanced and intelligent when Honor was still alive, and he most likely became Jaded after the Recreance.  Perhaps the Hieorachracy had another profound impact on his consciousness? 

[GreyPilgrim]

That's actually a great idea that the Hierocracy could have affected his nature. I missed that bit from Jasnah on my readthrough, and it is very interesting. The Hierocracy was essentially a hijacking of everything Vorin, and the ideals it promotes. Such an event could well have changed the Stormfather's nature significantly. That and, of course, the Recreance could go a long way to help us comprehend his current nature. He has kind of gone nuts. I fear what he will do in the future, since he was ready to kill everyone on the Shattered Plains when the Everstorm came. Not very honorable, if you ask me.

[kaellok]

That's actually a great idea that the Hierocracy could have affected his nature. I missed that bit from Jasnah on my readthrough, and it is very interesting. The Hierocracy was essentially a hijacking of everything Vorin, and the ideals it promotes. Such an event could well have changed the Stormfather's nature significantly. That and, of course, the Recreance could go a long way to help us comprehend his current nature. He has kind of gone nuts. I fear what he will do in the future, since he was ready to kill everyone on the Shattered Plains when the Everstorm came. Not very honorable, if you ask me.

What is honorable, and not, is an issue that Kaladin struggles with; it seems to be based entirely on perspective.  From the perspective of humans, the Stormfather's actions aren't honorable.  However, from his point of view, they are; he is acting to protect his 'children' in the best, most effective way that he can.  His ability to affect the Physical realm seems limited to the Highstorms, so he is using the only tool at his disposal to eliminate a very clear and imminent threat, rather than waiting until far too late to act to see if the humans (who have failed him time and time again, including very recently in the form of Kaladin killing Syl) actually come through this time around.  Harsh, yes, but not if his primary goal is to protect the spren, his 'children.'