Theory: Shards Can't Remember Their Names

[Chaos]

I figure if we have individual theories, we can preface the topic with "Theory"

Here's a curious phenomena you may have noticed: when the people who hold Shards (Ati, Leras, Rayse, etc.)--on TWG its suggested we call them Shardholders, as to not confuse them with the Shards themselves, and also to distinguish between with Shardbearers--refer to other Shards, they don't refer to them as their names. You never see Ati call Preservation "Leras".

Furthermore, the Shards on Roshar always refer to each other as their Shard's name, rather than their true name: Odium, Cultivation (we don't know the Almighty's Shard yet because our info comes from the Almighty fairly exclusively). We know the guy who holds Odium, his name is Rayse! Why don't Shards just call him that?

Perhaps because they just don't remember what their names were.

After all, it's been said that Ati and Leras's minds had been well-molded into the Shard's Intent, and that takes centuries, perhaps millennia. This effect, where the person's mind gets molded to the Shard they control, could make the Shardholders believe their names are Ruin and Preservation, instead of their true names.

More alarming is that the epigraphs in Part Two of Way of Kings (the letter) suggests that these people, Seventeenth Sharders or Hoid, most likely, have been alive long enough to know who these people actually were. Since the Cognitive effects of the Shards apparently take an extremely long time, this means that these people have been alive for just as long.

Thus, I think we can safely say that whoever wrote the letter (probably Hoid) and its recipient do not have Shards, as if they did, they would eventually forget their names by now. Their immortality is separate somehow.

I might be wrong about the Shards forgetting their names. It's not like Ruin wouldn't be reminded that his name is Ati whenever he looks at some atium. That is probably the one issue with this theory. But, maybe Ati at this time believes he is Ruin and not Ati any longer? A curious effect, for sure.

This raises many, many questions. How does the letter writer know Ati and Rayse, and presumably all the other Shardholders? Peculiar.

Thoughts?

[Nightfire107]

i think you're on to something. check my post on general theorys to see if there is correlating ideas.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

If this is true, would that mean that whoever Hoid is talking to in tWoK part 2 epigraphs isn't a Shard?  Because Hoid talks to him like he knows the other Shards' names.  Which, if you're right and the Shards don't remember their own names, then this person can't be a Shard.  Can they?  I is confuzzled.

[Chaos]

I'd imagine that whoever he is talking to was never a Shard. At first, I thought the letter's recipient was perhaps a 17th Shard member, but now I'm not sure.

But yeah, I'd put money on it that neither the letter writer or the recipient are Shardholders.

[Link Von Kelsier Harvey]

Even if he's not a member himself, he still holds authority or influence to order 17th Shard members around. Pg. 368 makes that clear.  Preservation used the number 16 to show the people on Scadrial that something was up.  And it is now the commonly accepted theory that the shards number sixteen total.  17th Shard then, seems to be an organization made up of functional immortals who gained their power from some other source, and then chose the name they did because of their concern with and knowledge of the actual sixteen shards.  Perhaps they presume that their combined power as an organization might equal the strength of a true shard.  So, in summary, I agree that the recipient and letter writer are not shardholders, but think it extremely likely that the recipient is a member of, and possibly in charge of, 17th Shard.

[Zas678]

I think you may be making an assumption. What proof do we have that 17th shard members are immortal? Some of them might be, but that doesn't mean all of them are.

[Chaos]

I think you may be making an assumption. What proof do we have that 17th shard members are immortal? Some of them might be, but that doesn't mean all of them are.

This is a valid point. Now that I posted my theory about how the Seventeenth Shard are separate from the letter writer and its recipient, I believe you are right. The members of the Seventeenth Shard are not required to be immortal.

The missive-writer and its recipient, however, are definitely immortal in some manner.

[Doxedon]

I'm going to throw this out there:

Sazed was looking into the past once he took the powers of two shards. I'd theorize that he would still be looking into the mystery?

Now that he has the powers of both Preservation and Ruin, would he consider himself as a new single entity instead of two separate shards, thus creating the "seventeeth shard"?

[Chaos]

I'm going to throw this out there:

Sazed was looking into the past once he took the powers of two shards. I'd theorize that he would still be looking into the mystery?

Now that he has the powers of both Preservation and Ruin, would he consider himself as a new single entity instead of two separate shards, thus creating the "seventeeth shard"?

...Oooh. I like this.

I'm not fully convinced, but hey, I can't exactly falsify that the name "Seventeenth Shard" has more than just symbolic meaning. It could very well refer to this.

However, I'm not sure there's anything that signals Sazed's involvement with these Seventeenth Sharders. Elantrians, on the other hand...

[Doxedon]

...Oooh. I like this.

I'm not fully convinced, but hey, I can't exactly falsify that the name "Seventeenth Shard" has more than just symbolic meaning. It could very well refer to this.

However, I'm not sure there's anything that signals Sazed's involvement with these Seventeenth Sharders. Elantrians, on the other hand...

I know my idea falters with not explaining why Sazed wasn't referenced in tWoK or how the Elantarians got involved. But if they started world hopping it'd only be a matter of time before worlds meet (Sel and Scadrial)...

[KChan]

Also, combining Preservation and Ruin to form a "Seventeenth Shard" doesn't make sense. Since those two were already part of the original 16 in the first place, pulling them out to create a new one would give us the following:

16 Shards - 2 Shards = 14 Shards.

Combine those two Shards into one and add them back:

14 Shards + 1 new Shard = 15 Shards.

Since the group is called Seventeenth Shard, and not Fifteenth Shard, it doesn't really add up to me.

[Chaos]

Sazed does have the capability to go to Roshar. I asked Brandon, and he said Sazed had no plans to do so (though he did say "there would be lots of implications if he did").

[Munin]

Also, combining Preservation and Ruin to form a "Seventeenth Shard" doesn't make sense. Since those two were already part of the original 16 in the first place, pulling them out to create a new one would give us the following:

16 Shards - 2 Shards = 14 Shards.

Combine those two Shards into one and add them back:

14 Shards + 1 new Shard = 15 Shards.

Since the group is called Seventeenth Shard, and not Fifteenth Shard, it doesn't really add up to me.

Except that you would still include Ruin and Preservation in the count, even if they're gone.

Sazed now holds the seventeenth known shard.

It's not a count of how many there are, it's a count of how many there ever were. That's why the epigraph says "three of sixteen", even though at least five shardholders are now dead.

[KChan]

Sazed doesn't hold a new Shard. He holds Ruin and Preservation, two known Shards from the original sixteen. You can't include both versions in the count; it throws off the entire balance of there having been sixteen in the first place. Remember, these numbers have a purpose other than Brandon just saying, "Oh hey, let's split Adonalsium into X number of Shards. That seems like a cool number!"

It makes much more sense for 17th Shard to be an organization of non-Shardholders. For one thing, the letter's author refers to them in the plural. Despite holding two Shards, Sazed is most definitely one person.

[Munin]

I agree that Sazed doesn't hold another shard by the strict definition of the word.

But based on the fact that it's the seventeenth, it's obviously supposed to be different. It could even be a small joke on Sazed's part.

Now, personally, I don't that Sazed is involved. But that's for reasons other than the name.

[Andrew the Great]

If you're going to argue that Sazed holds the seventeenth shard, you should technically argue that he holds the eighteenth, as Vin held Preservation for a bit.

Given the evidence we have, you really can't substantiate this at all. There's a lot more against it than for it. Although I'd love to see Sazed getting involved at some point. Just kind of in the background ish. Yes.

[Doxedon]

Each of the Shardholders reflect the persona of their shard.

My suggestion was, since Sazed holds two shards, he isn't either Preservation or Ruin. Since the shards could still be separated from Sazed (evidenced by death of Leras and Ati, Aona and Skaze), you wouldn't remove them from the total-shard count.

If you were to consider yourself different from Preservation and Ruin, I'd assume you'd simply have a new name for yourself - thus the 17th is born.

I still think its feasible that Sazed has a role to play in the group "seventeeth shard". If people have started world-hopping, why couldn't Sazed be involved? With his thirst for knowledge and now immortality/time to play with he could have hopped worlds or instructed others to look for people with information on shards. (Note: this is more of a theory considering there definitely isn't enough information out there on the events after Hero of Ages or the seventeeth shard other than a few references.)

[Munin]

However, it's also possible that Sazed's personality has changed, since he now holds Ruin's power. We know it twisted Ati into something he wasn't.

Unless Preservation would cancel that out. But I could also see how that would just drive him insane.

[KChan]

There's also the question of why you'd go to other planets if you're already a god of your own. Brandon has already said that Sazed has no plans to go to Roshar, and somehow I have difficulty imagining him planet-hopping anways. He has his own people to take care of.

[Zas678]

Maybe Sazed sees himself as Creation. That is what we get if Ruin and Preservation work together.

[Shivertongue]

Sazed is not the Seventeenth Shard.

There were sixteen. Ruin was one, and Preservatin was one. They both died.

16 - 2 = 14.

However, Sazed holds both Ruin and Preservation. Two shards, still separate, except being held by one person. That makes sixteen. He is not a new shard, he's two old ones.

Second (because the previous part was First), what little we know about the 17th is from the Letter Epigraphs, in which they were mentioned. What was mentioned of them did not sound like Sazed. And if it was Sazed, I doubt he would call himself "The Seventeenth Shard."

Third, Sazed is not the Seventeenth Shard. Because, as shown below in the epigraph from chapter 26, the Seventeenth Shard is referred to in the pural.

I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.

Boldness added by me.

Therefore, you are wrong. The closest you are to being right is that Sazed could be a PART of Seventeenth Shard, but I doubt this as well.

[Doxedon]

Sazed is not the Seventeenth Shard.

There were sixteen. Ruin was one, and Preservatin was one. They both died.

16 - 2 = 14.

However, Sazed holds both Ruin and Preservation. Two shards, still separate, except being held by one person. That makes sixteen. He is not a new shard, he's two old ones.

Not sure if this is directed at me or not. But..

There are still 16 personalities to the shards. I doubt because Sazed is holding two of them that you would remove the personalities from the count. Removing "Ruin" from Sazed would make Sazed Preservation. But as he has two which are odds at one another, he is neither "Preservation" or "Ruin", thus you would say that the mixture has created a new personality.

Second (because the previous part was First), what little we know about the 17th is from the Letter Epigraphs, in which they were mentioned. What was mentioned of them did not sound like Sazed. And if it was Sazed, I doubt he would call himself "The Seventeenth Shard."

Third, Sazed is not the Seventeenth Shard. Because, as shown below in the epigraph from chapter 26, the Seventeenth Shard is referred to in the pural.

I am being chased. Your friends of the Seventeenth Shard, I suspect. I believe they're still lost, following a false trail I left for them. They'll be happier that way. I doubt they have any inkling what to do with me should they actually catch me.

Boldness added by me.

Therefore, you are wrong. The closest you are to being right is that Sazed could be a PART of Seventeenth Shard, but I doubt this as well.

From my reading of the posts on this thread, no one has gone ahead and said Sazed is the one-and-only member of the group "seventeeth shard". I only said that he could have formed or played a significant role in its formation and they play homage to Sazed by the group's name.

[Ari]

Sazed is not the Seventeenth Shard.

There were sixteen. Ruin was one, and Preservatin was one. They both died.

16 - 2 = 14.

However, Sazed holds both Ruin and Preservation. Two shards, still separate, except being held by one person. That makes sixteen. He is not a new shard, he's two old ones.

Not sure if this is directed at me or not. But..

There are still 16 personalities to the shards. I doubt because Sazed is holding two of them that you would remove the personalities from the count. Removing "Ruin" from Sazed would make Sazed Preservation. But as he has two which are odds at one another, he is neither "Preservation" or "Ruin", thus you would say that the mixture has created a new personality.

Or perhaps he just has two competing influences on his original personality, and because they're opposing influences, they cancel out

[Kykeon]

I don't think they mean anything to them anymore.

When you live millenia and have at least a peripheral awareness of your entire star-system  and have the power to move the planets in it like marbles, such things become unimportant I guess.

Another theory I have is that the shard itself influences its holder to see such things as belonging to an unimportant past.

Look at what the Keys of the Architect tried to do to Arthur in "Keys to the Kingdom".

[Kykeon]

I don't think they mean anything to them anymore.

When you live millenia and have at least a peripheral awareness of your entire star-system  and have the power to move the planets in it like marbles, such things become unimportant I guess.

Another theory I have is that the shard itself influences its holder to see such things as belonging to an unimportant past.

Look at what the Keys of the Architect tried to do to Arthur in "Keys to the Kingdom".