[Full Book Spoilers] Parshendi/The Vengeance Pact

[Moogle]

The Parshendi (or rather, a small group of their leaders) decided to have Gavilar assassinated because he was returning the Parshendi gods, the Unmade.

 

“King Gavilar,” Eshonai said, as if mulling over the name. “He should not have revealed his plans to us that night. Poor fool. He did not know. He bragged, thinking we would welcome the return of our gods.” She shook her head, then turned again and jogged off, armor clinking.

 

Gavilar was part of the Sons of Honor (Amaram specifically says Gavilar would be proud of the return of Taln), a group dedicated to bringing about another Desolation to return the Heralds, as well as return the Vorin priesthood to power. Gavilar tells Szeth that he was too late, he had already succeeded (as evidenced by his black sphere, which is likely related to how he woke up an Unmade or summoned it or something).

 

The Parshendi killed him, then ran away to the Shattered Plains, a desolate place. They refused to see any diplomats or messengers that the Alethi sent because they hoped the Alethi would grow bored and give up their war against the Parshendi, leaving many Parshendi dead, but leaving the Parshendi free and the Parshendi gods safely asleep.

 

It seems like the Alethi would have really grown bored, if not for the gemhearts. The gemhearts were so valuable that the Alethi decided to stay and whittle the Parshendi down to nothing, eventually forcing the Parshendi to seek out their gods again so they could survive. Gavilar (or Amaram...) had already released the Unmade (or so it seems, as the Death Rattles, caused by an Unmade, started at about the same time as his death).

 

I found this all of these reveals fascinating. It changed my view of the Parshendi significantly, and Gavilar as well. Before, I was willing to give the Parshendi a lot of flak for refusing any and all diplomats and not making efforts for peace, but knowing their plan was to bore the Alethi, everything makes a lot more sense. I don't know if I can properly condemn the Parshendi as being in the wrong at all. What were they supposed to do?

 

If the Parshendi spoke up and tried to sue for peace, they would have had to reveal that Gavilar was threatening to reveal their gods. Just letting people know that that could be done would cause people to look into things and risked bringing back their gods. They had to stay silent or risk slavery to Odium, an unfortunate state of affairs for the Alethi who were in the dark and blindly thrashed about, starting a war.

 

So... I think basically all the blame can be put on Gavilar's shoulders for the current state of affairs, though the Alethi certainly share part of it for deciding to wage war at all.

 

I'm curious about people's thoughts on this topic in general. Mainly, though, I'm interested in one question:

 

What should the Parshendi have done when Gavilar bragged that he was going to return their gods?

 

At this point, I'm leaning in the direction that assassinating Gavilar was the only option available to them, and that unfortunate luck (gemhearts, the fact that Gavilar had already gone through with his plan) were responsible for how poorly circumstances have turned out.

 

What were their alternatives?

 

Edit: BEFORE ASKING QUESTIONS PLEASE PERUSE THESE QUOTES:

A few quick questions:
 
1. -When were the "Sons of Honor" (and their motives) mentioned? Is this from in the book or somewhere else? (I was reading rather quickly and haven't been able to do a re-read yet).
 
2. -Similarly, how do we know that them saying something would reveal them to Odium? (Or are you saying that if more people had looked into it then they were risking others bringing the Unmade back?) As a tag on question, they discuss the Unmade as their gods--is Odium the Unmade, or are the Unmade a part of Odium (perhaps as a Sliver/Splinter)? 
 
3. -Finally, we don't know why Gavilar told the listeners about his plan. Was he really bragging about it? Or was there something else? It could be he was asking them about their thoughts and they freaked out--maybe because they were afraid of anyone knowing about their gods, they decided to just kill him and bury the whole issue?

 
1. Amaram goes into this at length in his PoV. Choicy bits:
Even with Amaram’s reputation, he’d been able to pass into the camp with ease. He turned back to his paper. I do not exult in this success, he wrote. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis.
...
It was happening. It was really happening. The Sons of Honor had, at long last, achieved their goal. Gavilar would be proud.

2. I am saying that if they told people about the Unmade, then people would be able to discover that they were more than religious fabrications. Eshonai specifically worries about this. Choicy bit:
 
“Our people are crumbling,” Eshonai said. “We’re being weathered away. We moved to Narak and chose a war of attrition. That has meant six years with steady losses. People are giving up.”
“That’s not good,” Mother said.
“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”
 
The Unmade were once Parshendi who were turned into things of pure destruction. Rlain explains it best:

“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people  .  .  . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”
 
3. Yes. Gavilar said he was going to do it. Here's that:
 
Kill the man. Kill him, and risk destruction. For if he had lived to do what he told them that night, all would have been lost. The others who had made that decision with her were dead now.

 

 

4. Has it been confirmed that the Unmade are Parshendi gods or is that the prevailing theory?

 

Yes. Quoth the WoR:

“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?” “They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people  .  .  . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

Edited March 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Gloom]

I believe that the Parshendi would have sued for peace years earlier if it wasn't for Sadeas murdering those Parshendi who attempted to surrender. Sadeas made it clear to the Parshendi that surrender was not an option and peace was off the table. Were it not for Sadeas, it is likely that the war on the Shattered Plains may have ended long before TWoKs began.

I think that, while Gavilar contributed to the state of affairs, Sadeas actions were the final blow.

[darkanimereal1]

A few quick questions:

 

-When were the "Sons of Honor" (and their motives) mentioned? Is this from in the book or somewhere else? (I was reading rather quickly and haven't been able to do a re-read yet).

 

-Similarly, how do we know that them saying something would reveal them to Odium? (Or are you saying that if more people had looked into it then they were risking others bringing the Unmade back?) As a tag on question, they discuss the Unmade as their gods--is Odium the Unmade, or are the Unmade a part of Odium (perhaps as a Sliver/Splinter)? 

 

-Finally, we don't know why Gavilar told the listeners about his plan. Was he really bragging about it? Or was there something else? It could be he was asking them about their thoughts and they freaked out--maybe because they were afraid of anyone knowing about their gods, they decided to just kill him and bury the whole issue?

[Guest Shash]

Given our present information, I'm inclined to think the Parshendi did what was best. I'll withhold total judgement pending additional information. Here's a few things that I'm wondering:

How, exactly, did Gavilar stumble on to the secret of returning the Parshendi gods? Was he manipulated into it by a third party? Taravangian, perhaps? I haven't checked out an in depth timeline, but when was his Day of Brilliance? It must have been before the assassination of Gavilar and even before creation of Szeth as Truthless. Could Taravangian be to blame?

Has it been confirmed that the Unmade are Parshendi gods or is that the prevailing theory?

Also, I find it hard to believe that the Parshendi didn't give Szeth instructions for if he found Gavilar's secret rock. Unless they didn't fully comprehend the nature of Truthless and didn't trust passing that information on to anyone.

There's a lot to think about here. In fact, it's almost time to make a BOLO (be on look out) list and do a second, more thorough reading.

[Seloun]

I'm not convinced Gavilar was part of the Sons of Honor, or, more accurately, that he was exclusively a member of the Sons of Honor. Gavilar appears to have shared his visions with Taravangian (something he didn't do with Dalinar) which seems to imply a certain amount of closeness there. Restartes is also the second person he assumes sent Szeth after Thaidakar (and before Sadeas).

 

All of the secret societies seem to know each other pretty well. Maybe it's because they're all really good at espionage, but another possibility is that they're all splinters of a single organization (possibly lead by Gavilar) that had a falling-out near Gavilar's assassination.

 

Back to question, though...

 

I don't think it was the right decision, no. It seems pretty clear that the Parshendi were being manipulated, what with Szeth being conveniently available for them to use. It feels like they were railroaded into it by a third party somehow. I also don't know why explaining the situation to Gavilar was necessarily off the table; I don't see 'everyone looks into ways to control Parshendi' is a necessary conclusion from 'tell Gavilar it's a bad idea'.

[Moogle]

A few quick questions:

 

1. -When were the "Sons of Honor" (and their motives) mentioned? Is this from in the book or somewhere else? (I was reading rather quickly and haven't been able to do a re-read yet).

 

2. -Similarly, how do we know that them saying something would reveal them to Odium? (Or are you saying that if more people had looked into it then they were risking others bringing the Unmade back?) As a tag on question, they discuss the Unmade as their gods--is Odium the Unmade, or are the Unmade a part of Odium (perhaps as a Sliver/Splinter)? 

 

3. -Finally, we don't know why Gavilar told the listeners about his plan. Was he really bragging about it? Or was there something else? It could be he was asking them about their thoughts and they freaked out--maybe because they were afraid of anyone knowing about their gods, they decided to just kill him and bury the whole issue?

 

1. Amaram goes into this at length in his PoV. Choicy bits:

Even with Amaram’s reputation, he’d been able to pass into the camp with ease. He turned back to his paper. I do not exult in this success, he wrote. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis.

...

It was happening. It was really happening. The Sons of Honor had, at long last, achieved their goal. Gavilar would be proud.

2. I am saying that if they told people about the Unmade, then people would be able to discover that they were more than religious fabrications. Eshonai specifically worries about this. Choicy bit:

 

“Our people are crumbling,” Eshonai said. “We’re being weathered away. We moved to Narak and chose a war of attrition. That has meant six years with steady losses. People are giving up.”

“That’s not good,” Mother said.

“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”

 

The Unmade were once Parshendi who were turned into things of pure destruction. Rlain explains it best:

“You spoke of the Parshendi,” Dalinar said. “This has to do with the red eyes?”

Rlain nodded.

“What does it mean, soldier?” Dalinar asked.

“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people  .  .  . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

 

3. Yes. Gavilar said he was going to do it. Here's that:

 

Kill the man. Kill him, and risk destruction. For if he had lived to do what he told them that night, all would have been lost. The others who had made that decision with her were dead now.

 

 

4. Has it been confirmed that the Unmade are Parshendi gods or is that the prevailing theory?

 

Yes. Quoth the WoR:

“It means our gods have returned,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time, slow and reverent. He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people  .  .  . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

 

The listeners are also known as the ancients.

 

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,

Of one who seeks to take control,

Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.

They are his spren, his gift, his price.

 

And there's also these two, that associate the eyes of gods with the eyes of the Unmade:

She looked to her stormforms, who saluted and broke apart, moving in warpairs. Eshonai stepped back, folding her arms, watching as these visited each other division in turn. The new rhythms thrummed in her skull, though she stayed away from the Rhythm of Peace, with its strange screams. There was no fighting against what she had become. The eyes of the gods were too strongly upon her.

 

“Our people are crumbling,” Eshonai said. “We’re being weathered away. We moved to Narak and chose a war of attrition. That has meant six years with steady losses. People are giving up.”

“That’s not good,” Mother said.

“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”

It seems, based on this, that the Unmade are similar to the Heralds and Returned (of Warbreaker). Each of the original listeners received a Splinter of Odium, and had their old lives stripped from them with the Splinter fitted to them. Or I mean, this is getting into speculative territory, but it seems pretty clear that the Unmade were once things that were un... made. Also, we've got a list of them (I made a thread about it, I can link it if you want) - it seems there were ten, to match the ten Heralds, though we've only heard the names of 6 (and some of those might be duplicates.) To further speculate, it seems that when humans arrived on Roshar (listeners were there first, obviously - their biology matches that of all Rosharan life, complete with the ability to bond spren like all the animals) the Nahel bonding spren 'betrayed' the listeners and gave themselves to men, who could provide for them more. Some of the most angry Parshendi might have decided to accept Odium into their lives and sacrifice themselves for revenge.

 

I'm not convinced Gavilar was part of the Sons of Honor, or, more accurately, that he was exclusively a member of the Sons of Honor. Gavilar appears to have shared his visions with Taravangian (something he didn't do with Dalinar) which seems to imply a certain amount of closeness there. Restartes is also the second person he assumes sent Szeth after Thaidakar (and before Sadeas).

 

The quote I've given above has Amaram claiming Gavilar would be proud of what they've done. The group's name - the Sons of Honor - is also incredibly suggestive, since the name Honor would have come from Gavilar's highstorm visions. How do you explain these things if Gavilar was not a SOH?

Edited March 12, 2014 by Moogle

[DiamondMind]

The quote I've given above has Amaram claiming Gavilar would be proud of what they've done. The group's name - the Sons of Honor - is also incredibly suggestive, since the name Honor would have come from Gavilar's highstorm visions. How do you explain these things if Gavilar was not a SOH?

 

The small group of those he confided in could have formed up by themselves after Gavilar had died to continue his work. Though Seloun's point that Restares was mentioned by Gavilar as sending Szeth might have simply been because he was an untrustworthy person like Sadeas, not that they were working against each other. 

 

About the main point, I think we still don't have enough details about what exactly the Unmade are and what Gavilar was trying to do. Assassinating him could have been the only response, though I'm not convinced that there weren't other options.

 

[Seloun]

 

The quote I've given above has Amaram claiming Gavilar would be proud of what they've done. The group's name - the Sons of Honor - is also incredibly suggestive, since the name Honor would have come from Gavilar's highstorm visions. How do you explain these things if Gavilar was not a SOH?

 

I actually think Gavilar was playing the secret societies off of each other, or that he was involved with several of them at once. As mentioned before, Taravangian talks about Gavilar as if they had been allied:

 

 

It had worked. Just as the Diagram instructed, Taravangian was king of Jah Keved. He had taken the first major step toward unifying the world, as Gavilar had insisted would need to happen if they were to survive.

 

That was, at least, what the visions had proclaimed. Visions Gavilar had confided in him six years ago, the night of the Alethi king’s death . Gavilar had seen visions of the Almighty, who was also now dead, and of a coming storm.

 

Unite them.

 

“I am doing my best, Gavilar,” Taravangian whispered. “I am sorry that I need to kill your brother.”

 

Gavilar also thinks it's very possible Restarte is the one who sent Szeth.

 

Amaram's thought that Gavilar would be proud is his own interpretation. It's not really obvious that Amaram actually knows about Gavilar's visions or that he's interpreting what Gavilar wanted correctly (for example, it might be secondhand through Restartes post-assassination). The stated goals of the Sons of Honor are pretty inconsistent with what we've seen of Dalinar's visions, which doesn't mention much if anything about returning the Heralds or the Church to power. Based on Taravangian's interlude, it seems like a safe bet that Gavilar's visions were the same as Dalinar's.

[Guest Shash]

Well I feel foolish. May as well have asked, "Tanavast was Honor's Shardholder, right?" That's the problem with reading a book in a few hours - you enjoy all of it and retain little of it. Definitely time for a thorough reread.

[darkanimereal1]

First off: Moogle, thank you very much. That was an incredibly in depth answer. I obviously need to go back and re-read the end of the book (it got to the point where I was reading it as quickly as I could to try to finish it that night so that I could go back to actually taking care of my house the following day xD). But that is a huge help.

 

How, exactly, did Gavilar stumble on to the secret of returning the Parshendi gods? Was he manipulated into it by a third party? Taravangian, perhaps? I haven't checked out an in depth timeline, but when was his Day of Brilliance? It must have been before the assassination of Gavilar and even before creation of Szeth as Truthless. Could Taravangian be to blame?

 

Well, Szeth was definitely made Truthless after Taravangian's Day of Brilliance, since that is the day that Taravangian came up with the idea to make a Truthless with one of the Herald's blades (which he deduced were with the Shin) in order to achieve his ends.

 

With that in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if Taravangian knew that Szeth, the Truthless he created, would be used to assassinate Gavilar. Considering the fact that Taravangian then arranges to obtain Szeth's oathstone and proceeds to use him for similar assassinations, it's not unlikely. Plus, Taravangian does not mention any major failures of the Diagram. If he didn't want Gavilar dead by his own creation's hand, I would have counted that worth mentioning.

[DiamondMind]

Well I feel foolish. May as well have asked, "Tanavast was Honor's Shardholder, right?" That's the problem with reading a book in a few hours - you enjoy all of it and retain little of it. Definitely time for a thorough reread.

 

Actually, I'm not sure that the Unmade are the Parshendi gods, just that they are equivalent to the Heralds. Someone made a topic about that, earlier, and it made sense. 

 

The quotes Moogle gave are suggestive, but they do not prove that the Unmade are the gods. They certainly hold a place in the mythology, but I don't think they're the same. There is a contradiction of them being splinters of Odium and "those who gave themselves up." 

[Moogle]

Actually, I'm not sure that the Unmade are the Parshendi gods, just that they are equivalent to the Heralds. Someone made a topic about that, earlier, and it made sense. 

 

The quotes Moogle gave are suggestive, but they do not prove that the Unmade are the gods. They certainly hold a place in the mythology, but I don't think they're the same. There is a contradiction of them being splinters of Odium and "those who gave themselves up." 

 

The Returned on Nalthis are Splinters of Endowment, or have them. Brandon has been unclear on terminology before. Splinters are supposed to be sentient things that never been human, but he's said that Returned have them. So... here's the WoBs:

 

 

Skyler

If a returned gives away his/her breath they die right? So why doesn't Vasher die after he gives his to Denth?

Brandon Sanderson

They will die the moment they run out of breath to harvest. Once a week their body needs a breath in order to survive. Each Returned has one single superpowered breath. Imagine it as one breath that propels them up through the Heightenings, but it is only a single breath. It's what we speak of in Shard world terminology as a Splinter. And when the seventh day comes, if a Returned does not have another breath for his body to consume to keep him alive, his body will actually eat his divine breath and kill him. So they don't die immediately after they get rid of the breath, they're sort of put into a state of limbo where if they don't find more breath by the time that their feast day comes, then they will die. (Vasher did not give his Returned breath to Denth, just a number of normal breaths.)

 

 

Gordon

The paintings (I think there were at least two, right?) that remind Lightsong of his dreams and the Manywar etc. Is the Artist someone we know? If not, will we eventually meet him/her in a later book? Does the artist hope to affect Lightsong this way, or is it just some guy giving abstract art to his God?

JARED

Is the artist that painted those paintings Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Hoid did not make the paintings. The goal of those paintings—and this is spoilery, by the way—the paintings are actually what the text implies that they are. They are abstract paintings which Lightsong, having a touch of the divine, is able to see and read into things that aren't necessarily there.

Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of Warbreaker. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

I was not trying to make the artists anyone specifically important. In the case of those paintings, they are wonderful artists — I think they are two separate artists, if I'm thinking of the two paintings that you're indicating. As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them.

 

I am afraid that I don't see this contradiction at all. The connection is actually quite strong evidence - there is definitely a sort of 'unmaking' for the Returned. They lose most of their memories, though they do keep somewhat to what they were. This seems similar to the Unmade according to Rlain. They were once Parshendi who gave themselves up and got a Splinter of Odium, just like the Returned.

 

And in any case, even if they are Splinters, it's possible that the listeners who became Unmade are just shells for them and the Splinters inside of them are the ones driving them around. This also solves your contradiction. It's also fairly well supported by the stormform spren half-taking over Eshonai.

 

I'd also like to note these two quotes which link the eyes of the Unmade and eyes of the gods:

She looked to her stormforms, who saluted and broke apart, moving in warpairs. Eshonai stepped back, folding her arms, watching as these visited each other division in turn. The new rhythms thrummed in her skull, though she stayed away from the Rhythm of Peace, with its strange screams. There was no fighting against what she had become. The eyes of the gods were too strongly upon her.

 

“Our people are crumbling,” Eshonai said. “We’re being weathered away. We moved to Narak and chose a war of attrition. That has meant six years with steady losses. People are giving up.”

“That’s not good,” Mother said.

“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”

Edited March 12, 2014 by Moogle

[DiamondMind]

I'd also like to note these two quotes which link the eyes of the Unmade and eyes of the gods:

She looked to her stormforms, who saluted and broke apart, moving in warpairs. Eshonai stepped back, folding her arms, watching as these visited each other division in turn. The new rhythms thrummed in her skull, though she stayed away from the Rhythm of Peace, with its strange screams. There was no fighting against what she had become. The eyes of the gods were too strongly upon her.

 

“Our people are crumbling,” Eshonai said. “We’re being weathered away. We moved to Narak and chose a war of attrition. That has meant six years with steady losses. People are giving up.”

“That’s not good,” Mother said.

“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us.”

 

Ok, you convinced me with that last quote, for it's the only one with direct parallelism between the two. Have an upvote! (Though i don't think you need any more.) 

[name_here]

Probably the Parshendi should have tried to talk Dalinar out of it and gone to Jasnah to get her to help convince him to put things on hold.