Why is Kaladin different from the other Radiants? (Spoilers)

[Shards of Mist]

It seems to me that there is a marked difference between Kaladin and the reaction his Ideals invoke and the other Radiants.

When he says the second Ideal:

"I will protect those who cannot protect themselves," he whipsered. The Second Ideal of the Knights Radiant. A crack shook the air, like an enormous clap of thunder, though the sky was completely clear. ... Kaladin exploded with energy.

A burst of whiteness washed out from him, a wave of white smoke. Stormlight. The force of it slammed into the first rank of Parshendi, tossing them backward, and Teft had to hold his hand up against the vibrancy of the light.

When he says the third Ideal:

"I will protect even those I hate," Kaladin whispered through bloody lips. "So long as it is right." ..... Kaladin gasped a deep breath as if coming fully awake for the first time. The entire hallway went black as the Stormlight in every lamp down the length of the hall winked out.

For a moment the stood in darkness.

Then Kaladin exploded with light.

It erupted from his body, making him shine like a blazing white sun in the darkness.

..... Behind Kaladin, frost crystallized on the ground, growing backwards away from him. A glyph formed in the frost, almost in the shape of wings.

We don't ever see the other Radiants, or Radiants in training, have markedly visual examples of their change. Is it just his specific order? Or are Kaladin and Syl different than the other Nahel bonds?

Also there's this:

The voice faded. For a moment, Kaladin thought he saw shadows of a world that was not, shadows of another place. And in that place, a distant sky with the sun enclosed, almost as if by a corridor of clouds.

This is right before he first is able to lash himself to the wall, so maybe every Radiant will eventually see a part of Shadesmar, but so far only the Radiant orders involved with soulcasting and now Kaladin have done so that we see.

Finally, I've mentioned this in other posts, but why is it that Kaladin, a man named for Kalak, is of the order of Jezrien? Shallan is in the order of her namesake, yet Kaladin isn't? Have we seen anyone else named for the Heralds in the series yet? It seems pretty suspect that Kaladin would be named for a Herald and be a superpowered Radiant, yet be of a different order.

Mostly just some random musings on all this, but it gets me thinking. Just seeing if any others had some thoughts to add, or maybe contradictions to mull over.

[synobal]

I think it has to do with the nature of the Wind Runners, they seem to be a strictly warrior order of the knights radiant. The elsecallers, lightbenders, truthwatchers, and Bondsmiths don't seem to be combat oriented. 

 

I think he is the only combat oriented one we have seen so far. Except maybe Lift who is an edge dancer, but she isn't a warrior she is just a kid. A strange one at that as well. 

[name_here]

Has anyone else except Dalinar even gotten to their second Ideal yet?

[synobal]

Has anyone else except Dalinar even gotten to their second Ideal yet?

 

No, the only other person who has been a surge binder for very long that I know of is Shallan and they don't make any oaths other than the first. 

 

Dunno about the edge dancers but lift doesn't seem like the sort to be taking oaths. 

[kaos]

Pretty sure Lift said her oath (I will remember those who have been forgotten) before she used ReGrowth on Gaw.

[dionysus]

Because the only other Radiant we have seen make it to the second oath is Dalinar and the Stormfather went out of his way to say don't expect much in the way of help from him.

 

Not saying you are wrong, just that we don't have much evidence from other radiants.

[dionysus]

Because the only other Radiant we have seen make it to the second oath is Dalinar and the Stormfather went out of his way to say don't expect much in the way of help from him.

 

Not saying you are wrong, just that we don't have much evidence from other radiants.

 

Edit. Forgot about Lift, she did receive a power-up I believe to let her use regrowth but nothing like the explosion of light and force Kaladin gets.

[shinintendo]

Did we ever saw someone state their ideal on screen for the first time? maybe every surgebinder got similar effect on each new ideal he/she states.

[Riverseo]

I have a very slight and insubstantial theory that Kaladin and maybe the other new KR are being setup as the new Heralds...sort of...I can see a KR vs Original Heralds conflict, as the original Heralds seem to have either lost their way or they just don't care.

At the very least I can see the windrunner oaths could cause conflict within the KR, the whole protect even those you hate, it seems the highest standard out of any of the other radiant oaths we have so far seen.

[PudgyNinja]

I think it's probably the nature of the Windrunners, more than anything else.  

 

The only other Radiant we've really seen progressing is Shallan and the Lightweavers seem to be about concealment, disguise, deception, etc.  Doesn't really make sense for them to burst with white light in the middle of a high stress mission, the way it would a Windrunner.

 

We also saw Dalinar take some oaths, but I think we can probably agree that the Stormfather seems to be approaching being bonded to a human differently from the others.

[grinachu]

Finally, I've mentioned this in other posts, but why is it that Kaladin, a man named for Kalak, is of the order of Jezrien? Shallan is in the order of her namesake, 

 

I thought Shallan was in that order as well, but do we have confirmation? Taln calls Shallan's one of Ishi's knights. 

Edited March 11, 2014 by grinachu

[shinintendo]

Why are the Windrunners need to follow so many ideals compare to others? maybe they get more power the more ideals they got.

or maybe the more the power is "cheatery" the more it needs balance with so many ideals. we know BS loves to keep the powers in check aka Sanderson first law of magic.

[PudgyNinja]

Why are the Windrunners need to follow so many ideals compare to others? maybe they get more power the more ideals they got.

or maybe the more the power is "cheatery" the more it needs balance with so many ideals. we know BS loves to keep the powers in check aka Sanderson first law of magic.

 

I'm not sure what you mean.  Each of the different branches have their own ideals.  The only exception we're aware of right now is Lightweavers, who apparently trade in Truths instead of oaths.

[shinintendo]

I'm not sure what you mean.  Each of the different branches have their own ideals.  The only exception we're aware of right now is Lightweavers, who apparently trade in Truths instead of oaths.

I don't see Shallan break her bond if she lie one more time. Honor spren seems to be very strict on their followers, why is that? in my comment I asked for theories regarding this.

[MistWit]

Probobly just somthing with Windrunner oaths but it might have somthing to do with the fact that honorspren don't seem to be returning and syl broke the "rules" to bond with Kaladin. Maybe he is more powerful beouse of this.

[PudgyNinja]

I don't see Shallan break her bond if she lie one more time. Honor spren seems to be very strict on their followers, why is that? in my comment I asked for theories regarding this.

 

Shallan probably isn't going to break her bond if she lies.  After all, she's bonded to a liespren.  But make no mistake, I'm certain that she could break the bond between her and Pattern.  Pattern is very interested in lies and truth and the way they interact, the way one can become the other.  Shallan could probably break her oath by denying the truth.  Repressing the memories she recovered and not seeking the truth like she currently is. 

[shinintendo]

But you can still see that honor spren is much more strict, say he ignore a person in need. BAM Syl gone. and it's static conditions, there won't be a change in them. Shallan will get over her problems in time, she'll have no difficulty keeping the bond.

 

Let's say Shallan had 10 traumatic experiences in the past that she needs get healed from, is facing 1 trauma = 1 ideal.

I mean I see no measurement between one KR type ideals to another.

Edited March 11, 2014 by shinintendo

[Moogle]

Shallan probably isn't going to break her bond if she lies.  After all, she's bonded to a liespren.  But make no mistake, I'm certain that she could break the bond between her and Pattern.  Pattern is very interested in lies and truth and the way they interact, the way one can become the other.  Shallan could probably break her oath by denying the truth.  Repressing the memories she recovered and not seeking the truth like she currently is. 

 

Syl was not dead, so far as I can tell.

 

When Kaladin is speaking the Third Ideal, she and the Stormfather are fighting. She tells the Stormfather that he "CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE [Kaladin] SPEAKS THE WORDS!" She seemed likely to be in Shadesmar, rather than dead.

 

Because Pattern previously became her Blade, he had to be in the Physical. And yet, when Shallan spoke a 'truth' in TWoK, it seemed like he was in the Cognitive.

 

I'm theorizing, then, that Shallan broke her oaths by lying to herself about her mother's death. This kicked Pattern back into the Cognitive, like Syl. Spren might only die if the Knight summons them in Shardblade form (locking them into the Physical) and then betrays their oaths. This would explain why the Radiants threw off their Shards like trash when breaking their oaths, rather than causing the Recreance when not in Shards.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Moogle

[PudgyNinja]

But you can still see that honor spren is much more strict, say he ignore a person in need. BAM Syl gone. and it's static conditions, there won't be a change in them. Shallan will get over her problems in time, she'll have no difficulty keeping the bond.

 

Let's say Shallan had 10 traumatic experiences in the past that she needs get healed from, is facing 1 trauma = 1 ideal.

I mean I see no measurement between one KR type ideals to another.

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

 

I doubt Kaladin and Syl's bond would break if he failed to help someone in need (depending on the circumstances).  Kaladin has failed to protect people on several occasions, and while it's upsetting to Syl (and him), their bond was unaffected.  The thing that came between them was that he became an oathbreaker.  Swearing to both protect the king and to help assassinate him.  

Edited March 11, 2014 by PudgyNinja

[shinintendo]

I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

 

I doubt Kaladin and Syl's bond would break if he failed to help someone in need (depending on the circumstances).  Kaladin has failed to protect people on several occasions, and while it's upsetting to Syl (and him), their bond was unaffected.  The thing that came between them was that he became an oathbreaker.  Swearing to both protect the king and to help assassinate him.  

Ok I can accept it, but what is your take to Pattern conditions. with Kalladin there is an end to the ideals, you state them all, follow them and that's it. how do you measure Shallan progress? What if she faced all her skeletons in the closet, what can break her bond than?

[PudgyNinja]

Ok I can accept it, but what is your take to Pattern conditions. with Kalladin there is an end to the ideals, you state them all, follow them and that's it. how do you measure Shallan progress? What if she faced all her skeletons in the closet, what can break her bond than?

 

If Shallan were to turn away from a painful truth.  Denied it to herself, I imagine that would hurt the bond.  

 

Let's say that she starts investigating Sadeas' murder and find evidence that Adolin may be the culprit.  But she avoids pursuing it.  She goes into denial and starts making up excuses to herself why it couldn't be true.  Even goes so far as to start believing the lie that she's telling herself.  That's the kind of thing that I think Pattern would have trouble with.  If confronting harsh truths is the way they strengthen their bond, then avoiding or ignoring them would surely hurt it.

Edited March 11, 2014 by PudgyNinja

[Chrono]

Syl was not dead, so far as I can tell.

When Kaladin is speaking the Third Ideal, she and the Stormfather are fighting. She tells the Stormfather that he "CANNOT HOLD ME BACK IF HE [Kaladin] SPEAKS THE WORDS!" She seemed likely to be in Shadesmar, rather than dead.

 

Because Pattern previously became her Blade, he had to be in the Physical. And yet, when Shallan spoke a 'truth' in TWoK, it seemed like he was in the Cognitive.

 

I'm theorizing, then, that Shallan broke her oaths by lying to herself about her mother's death. This kicked Pattern back into the Cognitive, like Syl. Spren might only die if the Knight summons them in Shardblade form (locking them into the Physical) and then betrays their oaths. This would explain why the Radiants threw off their Shards like trash when breaking their oaths, rather than causing the Recreance when not in Shards.

I interpreted it differently. Syl probably was dead. She said as much when Kaladin asked her about it. What probably happened is the second that Kaladin decided to go back for Elhokar, Syl started to come back to life. She was fully restored and made whole when Kaladin spoke the Third Ideal.

As for Pattern, he probably died in the interim between Shallan killing her mother and her going to Kharbranth. Does anyone remember the first time she heard the Cryptic's voice? I swear it was after she went to the alley with Jasnah and nearly summoned her Shardblade. That action may have started to bring Pattern back to life.

[shinintendo]

If Shallan were to turn away from a painful truth.  Denied it to herself, I imagine that would hurt the bond.  

 

Let's say that she starts investigating Sadeas' murder and find evidence that Adolin may be the culprit.  But she avoids pursuing it.  She goes into denial and starts making up excuses to herself why it couldn't be true.  That's the kind of thing that I think Pattern would have trouble with.  If confronting harsh truths is the way they strengthen their bond, then avoiding or ignoring them would surely hurt it.

Sure that works, but say she face her truths and change. she will have no limitation concerning her bond. unlike Kalladin who will still have his.

[PudgyNinja]

Sure that works, but say she face her truths and change. she will have no limitation concerning her bond. unlike Kalladin who will still have his.

 

Sorry, I feel like we're not communicating very well.  Yes, if Shallan faces and accepts the harsh truths that she uncovers, she will maintain her bond.  Similarly, if Kaladin keeps to the oaths he makes, that will maintain his bond with Syl.  I'm just not clear on why you think they're so different.  

[shinintendo]

Sorry, I feel like we're not communicating very well.  Yes, if Shallan faces and accepts the harsh truths that she uncovers, she will maintain her bond.  Similarly, if Kaladin keeps to the oaths he makes, that will maintain his bond with Syl.  I'm just not clear on why you think they're so different.  

Sorry English is obviously not my first language

I mean since Shallan will change she will actually be a different person. she won't have do to anything to keep herself like that.

The new Shallan won't have any problems so the bond restriction of Pattern is useless. I will make a little diagram to make my thoughts clearer:

Shallan face her problems----> Shallan became a different person,no more lies and secrets---> pitfalls of the restriction are gone--> no more need to be in check to break the bond.

Edited March 11, 2014 by shinintendo