Theory: What happened to Honor

[Spook]

Hey, I'm new here, so it's possible this theory has been discussed already, but here it is.

My idea is that Honor/The Almighty/Tanavast was the Shardbearer that Kaladin killed.

Evidence:

1. Look at Cenn's description of what happens in the beginning of the book. First, thunder for no apparent reason. "He could hear faint thunder. That was odd. The sky was cloudless." Then, a Shardbearer appears out of nowhere. He is "in gleaming armor that seemed to radiate light." "The plate was gilded." Then the kicker: "It was like...like the Almighty himself had taken form to walk the battlefield." That really got my attention.

2. Kaladin, while in the slaver caravan, thinking back on what happened with Amaram, thinks this: "Were there men who had honor. No, Kaladin thought. Honor died eight months ago." This could be a clue from BS that the shard Honor literally did die eight months ago, on the battlefield.

3. When Amaram comes to talk to Kaladin and kill his men, he enters in the middle of a conversation. "'...why Thaidakar would risk this?' Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. 'But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?' 'He was Veden, Brightlord,' the stormwarden said. 'Nobody I recognize.'" Nobody knows who the Shardbearer is. He seems to come out of nowhere.

4. Dalinar's talk with the Almighty at the end has a few different things. "He had dark skin and pure white hair...[his clothing] seemed made of gold." Remember the plate that was gilded? Just a thought. I don't remember what Vedens look like, but if they have dark skin or light hair or both, that would be more evidence. Also, he says "I am dead. Odium has killed me." See the next point.

5. Looking at the actual scene of the death, there are some more interesting things. Again, the gold armor. Kaladin also describes him as a "beautiful divinity," another description of him being god-like. Then, when the Shardbearer kills Cenn, Dallet, and others, Kaladin decides to go after him. "Anger boiled inside of Kaladin." "Was he running to get vengeance, or was he trying to protect his highmarshal?...Did it matter?" He is filled with hatred, and doesn't really care why he's doing what he's doing. Then, when the Shardbearer kills almost all the rest of his men, you can really see it. "Something drove him forward, against all logic, against all sense. Sickened, agonized, enraged." The definition of odium is hatred or rage. (also, the shame and hatred involved in a dishonorable act, but that's not the sense I'm using here) I would suggest that Odium influences Kaladin here to kill Honor. Just as insane people are more easily influenced by Ruin on Scadrial, Odium would be able to control to some extent people who are feeling hatred. Kaladin, as he has lost his friends and the people he tried to protect for so long is very vulnerable. When it says that something else drove him to do it, that says to me that Odium was influencing him. In that way, Odium killed Honor through Kaladin.

If anyone could contribute any further evidence, (what do Vedens look like, or anything else) or criticism, I would appreciate it.

[Squallor]

That is quite a bit of evidence you have there, but I still don't know if I agree. The problems that I have are that of motivation and means on Honor's part, why would he be sauntering around as a normal shardbearer in the first place? If he was the Almighty, how did Kaladin - someone who is relatively low on the fighting prowess food chain at this point in time - actually manage to kill him?

Another thought, how does this line up with Dalinar's timeline? I haven't read the book since it was first released, so I am a bit rusty, but I thought Dalinar started having the visions about a year before the present action of the book, which would put these recordings prior to when the Almighty dies according to you.

The only thing might cause the Almighty to be this shardbearer would be if he was trapped in some way in a mortal body, which seems unlikely to me. My intuition says that these god/holy references are in a comment on the divinity of shardbearers in general, and how at one point they were Honor's chosen ones. Maybe this one shardbearer was a bit like Dalinar in that he could draw a bit more power from the shardplate then most people could.

[Sprouts]

Seems odd and not honorable at all for Honor to go around killing various people on the battlefield, such as Cenn. However I like the idea behind the theory, and I'm definitely interested in that shardbearer.

[Spook]

I definitely agree that the main problem is the motivation behind it. The only thing I can think of at the moment is how the Almighty says "I am sorry" at the very end of the vision, like it might have been his fault. Perhaps he stopped being very honorable, and this in some way caused his downfall. The reason I feel like I might be right about this is just that it really seems to me like something that BS would do, something kind of subtle, but having the main character do something that seems right and awesome but that actually messes everything up.

[happyman]

I definitely agree that the main problem is the motivation behind it. The only thing I can think of at the moment is how the Almighty says "I am sorry" at the very end of the vision, like it might have been his fault. Perhaps he stopped being very honorable, and this in some way caused his downfall. The reason I feel like I might be right about this is just that it really seems to me like something that BS would do, something kind of subtle, but having the main character do something that seems right and awesome but that actually messes everything up.

I'm pretty sure by the time of "Way of Kings," Honor would be completely unable to violate his Shard's intent in any meaningful way. Way of Kings happens after Hero of Ages, after all, and Ruin's original personality was well and truly gone by the time of Hero of Ages, and apparently had been for all of known history. Running over innocent people just because they are on the other side seems radically unlikely for Honor. It does, however, match what the people on Roshar do all the time.

[Morderkaine]

Child of Tanavast. Child of Honor. Child of one long since departed.

*emphasis added

"Long since departed" seems to indicate to me that Honor has been dead for quite some time. Although, after reading your evidence, I am inclined to believe there's something special about the Shardbearer Kaladin killed. My personal opinion is that he was a Herald. I'm guessing Ishar.

On a side note apparently Peter found this topic interesting enough to Tweet about.

http://twitter.com/...670516039008257

[Chachel]

Another thought, how does this line up with Dalinar's timeline? I haven't read the book since it was first released, so I am a bit rusty, but I thought Dalinar started having the visions about a year before the present action of the book, which would put these recordings prior to when the Almighty dies according to you.

According to the book, the visions began "a few months ago".

Dalinar's timeline:

A few months into Kaladin's time as a bridgeman, i.e. after he gains the loyalty of the other bridgemen, Dalinar has his twelfth vision in ch. 19:

"Each of the visions was different. This would be the twelfth one he'd seen. Only twelve? he thought. It seemed like so many more, but this had only begun happening to him a few months ago." p. 295

On "The Way of Kings":

"Were the words of this book the cause of his problems? The visions had started several months after he'd first listened to readings from it." p. 370

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Do you remember TLR? And how it took a Mistborn tapping the mists and hitting his one weak point to bring him down?

Take that and increase that by about ten orders of magnitude.

If that Shardbearer was the Almighty, then Kaladin, someone who, at that point, had no remarkable magical talent, would be going up against someone with the power of a GOD. Not a Splinter, not a Sliver, but a full blown SHARD. I refuse to believe that that would happen.

The only way I could see it happening is if Honor lost his Shard, and the only way we've seen that happen is by dying. So no, it would not work.

I agree that that scene definitely has relevance in what happens from here on, but I really doubt it's on a Shard level.

[Spook]

Yeah, I guess I'm pretty convinced from the "Child of one long since departed" that it can't be Honor, unless he somehow lost his Shard a while ago, but that would make him not Honor anymore. He's probably a Herald.

In Kaladin's defense from everyone who thinks he would not win unless he were fighting someone completely human:

1. The Shardbearer is arrogant and thinks he's unbeatable, making him grow lazy.

2. Remember, Kaladin is already using Stormlight. Not consciously, but Cenn noticed in the beginning "something surrounding the squadleader" while he's fighting. "A warping of the air, like the wind itself become visible."

I think he has a pretty decent chance against at least a Herald who thinks he's a normal spearman.

[firstRainbowRose]

I haven't read all of the comments yet, but I wanted to jot down a couple of my own.

1: To the common solder ALL shardplate would be amazing. If I remember correctly (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) the old radient's shardplate seems to glow. Maybe it's someone who has found a way to do that?

2: To the comment of honor dying -- it's just in Kaladin's mind that honor is dead. To him, what happened killed his ability to believe there were honorable men in the world.

3: I think Kaladin's anger was fueled by the Lust or whatever Dalinar and everyone calls it. Either that or else a rage at the loss of his brother, brought to the surface by the death of the kid who reminded him of his brother.

I do agree that there's something odd about this shardbearer, but I'm more inclined to think it was one of the heralds than the shard himself/herself.

[Chachel]

3: I think Kaladin's anger was fueled by the Lust or whatever Dalinar and everyone calls it. Either that or else a rage at the loss of his brother, brought to the surface by the death of the kid who reminded him of his brother.

I do agree that there's something odd about this shardbearer, but I'm more inclined to think it was one of the heralds than the shard himself/herself.

I agree that the mystery shardbearer could be a herald. It could also be one of the Ghostbloods, as Amaram speculates:

"'...why Thaidakar would risk this?' Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. 'But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?'

'He was Veden, Brghtlord,' the stormwarden said. 'Nobody I recognize. But I will investigate.'" p. 701

(Minor note: it's called the Thrill, but lust pretty much describes it too.)

[happyman]

I'm certain that the Shardbearer Kaladin killed will be important in the long run. I see no reason to think he's a Herald, though. I'm pretty certain Kaladin was using Stormlight when he killed the Shardbearer; that probably evened the odds slightly, although Kaladin was still skilled out the ears to do it, even against a normal shardbearer.

EDIT: Following Chaos' correction.

Edited August 2, 2011 by happyman

[Chaos]

I'm certain that the Shardbearer Kaladin killed will be important in the long run. I see no reason to think he's a Herald, though. I'm pretty certain Kaladin was using Stormlight when he killed the Shardbearer; that probably evened the odds slightly, although Kaladin was still skilled out the ears to do it, even against a normal shardholder.

You mean Shardbearer, not Shardholder.

[Cheese Ninja]

Am I the only one that thinks Kaladin killed Shallan's brother? There's a ghostblood link and both of them are Vedens who died in the past year. Plus it makes for good drama later on. I don't think that Shallan's family owned that set of blade and plate, just that the Ghostbloods supplied it to Helaran so that he could kill Amaram in the battle, no one expected Helaran to get killed.

There was that matter of the strange collection of maps they’d found in his study. What did they mean? He’d rarely spoken of his plans to his children. Even her father’s advisors knew very little. Helaran—her eldest brother—had known more, but he had vanished over a year ago, and her father had proclaimed him dead.

[Mad_Scientist]

Interesting. I like that idea a lot.

I remember that Brandon commented in an interview about there being a "mysterious death" in the book that could bear some looking into, but he didn't say what he meant precisely. Theories as to who he was referring to ranged from Gaz(who may or may not be dead) to Shallan's brother to others, but I've never seen anyone suggest this specific idea for her brother.

[Cheese Ninja]

Which I guess still leaves some questions, when was Honor/Tanavast killed by Odium, and by what means? What happened to Honor (the shard), did Odium Splinter it, or is it free to be picked up if someone can find it?

[CrazyRioter]

given that we know Odium Splintered the two Shards whose holders he killed on Sel, I suspect Honor has been Splintered. But obviously we don't have any solid proof of that.

[pmj812]

I think that we know what happened to Honor.

"Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above."

The world is dead. The sky is dead. The storms are the last vestige of life, and for all their violence, Roshar and everything on it would die without them.

The storms and the spren are the splinters of Honor. When Odium struck the fatal blow most of the world was dead or dying already. Honor instituted the highstorms with his last breath as a desperate, last-ditch effort to keep Roshar alive.

[Dros]

I think that we know what happened to Honor.

"Above silence, the illuminating storms - dying storms - illuminate the silence above."

The world is dead. The sky is dead. The storms are the last vestige of life, and for all their violence, Roshar and everything on it would die without them.

The storms and the spren are the splinters of Honor. When Odium struck the fatal blow most of the world was dead or dying already. Honor instituted the highstorms with his last breath as a desperate, last-ditch effort to keep Roshar alive.

I like that except for one thing. Aren't the Stroms getting stronger? I would think the storms would eventually be getting weaker, not stronger. The Highstorms becoming more powerful denotes a force still actively creating them and increasing the ferocity. If the Storms are just remnants, the kinetic energy needed to sustain them would be slowly ebbing away.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Except that there's a precedence for this.

After Leras died, the mists still snapped people, and this was egged on by Ruin because it was killing people, making things easier for him. (Do I have that right?) Which would mirror pretty well what's going on with the Storms.

[Aashyma]

There's one more reason against the Shardbearer being a Herald: the swords of Heralds disappear after they die remember?