Question about Syl's travels

[DiamondMind]

Why did Syl "die" when Kaladin is falling into the chasms? It makes sense that she was slowly losing her mind beforehand because he was breaking his oaths, but what caused the snap then? It doesn't seem that he was doing anything wrong- in fact, he was sacrificing himself trying to protect Dalinar. 

 

Anyone have any ideas?

[+Aletus]

Thats a good thing to bring up. I'm not sure. At that point, Kaladin was having difficulties drawing in stormlight iirc, maybe she sacrificed herself in a way, to keep him from being killed in the fall. 

[Aleksiel]

I've been wondering the same. Syl said she was as dead as his oaths, so something Kaladin did at that moment must have broken another oath.  He broke the first ideal when he agreed to Moash's plan - choosing the destination before the journey and death before life. I'm still trying to figure it out. So, probably something he did at that exact moment before Syl's scream broke the second ideal, though he really attempt to protect Dalinar from an assassination. Perhaps Kaladin's reasons for protection were no longer acceptable?

[Aminar]

I think it was more that she broke the rules.  She allowed him stormlight despite his broken oaths, and it weakened her enough to kill her, instead of just leaving her dying.

[happyman]

I think it was more that she broke the rules.  She allowed him stormlight despite his broken oaths, and it weakened her enough to kill her, instead of just leaving her dying.

 

I wrote an earlier post answering this, but while writing it, I came up with a much better answer.

 

I think that the betrayal that killed Syl at this point was the betrayal of Syl herself.  Don't get me wrong; the bond was weakening because of Kaladin's earlier mistakes.  At the moment he killed her, though, he actively and insistently tried to use Syl's powers knowing full well that she didn't want him to do so.  That is not honorable, and deep down, he knew he was betraying her very essence by trying.  That is what I think happened.

[skaa]

Syl implied in WoK that her bond with Kaladin is a form of exchange: Kaladin gets his abilities from her, and she gets... something... out of him in return:

 

"I'm behind what is happening to you," she said, voice soft. "I'm doing it."

Kaladin frowned, stepping forward.

"It's both of us," she said. "But without me, nothing would be changing in you. I'm... taking something from you. And giving something in return. It's the way it used to work, though I can't remember how or when. I just know that it was."

 

 

Whatever it is that Syl was getting from Kaladin (a power of some sort, probably some kind of Investiture present in the humans of Roshar), she could no longer get it after Kaladin broke his oath to protect. But she was still bonded to him, so if she wanted to, she could still give him her Surgebinding gifts... at a cost to herself. Because she no longer received whatever it is from Kaladin that gave her power, she had to use whatever power she had left, slowly depleting it.

 

When Kaladin first noticed his trouble with sucking in Stormlight, you'll notice that he was still able to do it after talking to Syl. I don't know if Syl sacrificed herself willingly in that particular case, or if Kaladin was somehow able to force her sacrifice. Anyway, that one act of Stormlight infusion already weakened her. And when he fell down the chasm later on, I believe that Syl sacrificed her last ounce of power to protect Kaladin. That's why she died.

 

It's like how the Returned like Vasher (who possessed another form of Splinter: the Divine Breath) could Awaken things at no cost to themselves as long as they had Breaths from others given to them. But once they run out of regular Breaths, performing any kind of Awakening will use up their Divine Breath, and they'll die.

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Aminar]

Syl implied in WoK that her bond with Kaladin is a form of exchange: Kaladin gets his abilities from her, and she gets... something... out of him in return:

 

 

Whatever it is that Syl was getting from Kaladin (a power of some sort, probably some kind of Investiture present in the humans of Roshar), she could no longer get it after Kaladin broke his oath to protect. But she was still bonded to him, so if she wanted to, she could still give him her Surgebinding gifts... at a cost to herself. Because she no longer received whatever it is from Kaladin that gave her power, she had to use whatever power she had left, slowly depleting it.

 

When Kaladin first noticed his trouble with sucking in Stormlight, you'll notice that he was still able to do it after talking to Syl. I don't know if Syl sacrificed herself willingly in that particular case, or if Kaladin was somehow able to force her sacrifice. Anyway, that one act of Stormlight infusion already weakened her. And when he fell down the chasm later on, I believe that Syl sacrificed her last ounce of power to protect Kaladin. That's why she died.

 

It's like how the Returned like Vasher (who possessed another form of Splinter: the Divine Breath) could Awakening at no cost to themselves as long as they had Breaths from others given to them. But once they run out of regular Breaths, performing any kind of Awakening will use up their Divine Breath, and they'll die.

She's getting intelligence. By bonding him she is allowed to observe the physical world whithout losing her mind. Pattern and Syl have explained this before.

[skaa]

She's getting intelligence. By bonding him she is allowed to observe the physical world whithout losing her mind. Pattern and Syl have explained this before.

 

This is the Cosmere, Aminar, so you have to think Realmatically. She's getting intelligence, yes, but how? Via Investiture, of course. Kaladin and Syl Invest in each other. Syl's Investiture grants Kaladin various Surgebinding and fighting abilities, while Kaladin's Investiture grants Syl intelligence and additional power that she could then transform back into Kaladin's Surgebinding.

 

What I'd like to know is how Kaladin's honorable actions (or whatever it is Syl feeds on) are transformed into Investiture for Syl, Realmatically speaking. One possible explanation is that actions are Spiritual entities that can directly be transformed into pure Investiture (which is Spiritual in nature) by the spren. But I'd be interested to see if Brandon is willing to give the actual answer in one of his future interviews.

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Aminar]

I don't think it's investiture, which so far has been pretty spiritual in nature. Stormlight, breaths, etc. Intelligence, like Spren, is cognitive. If anything we're seeing the transferance of a third force... Identity perhaps.

[skaa]

I don't think it's investiture, which so far has been pretty spiritual in nature. Stormlight, breaths, etc. Intelligence, like Spren, is cognitive. If anything we're seeing the transferance of a third force... Identity perhaps.

 

But Investiture can grant intelligence. Remember the Mistwraiths on Scadrial? Quite unintelligent, until they receive "Blessings" via Hemalurgic Investiture and become Kandra. In the same way, Syl got her sentience and intelligence through Investiture that she somehow obtained through Kaladin, the Spiritual power granting her a Cognitive boost.

 

Or do you have an alternative Realmatic explanation for it?

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Azul]

Posted this elsewhere but can put it again here.  First the scene.

 

 

He would not die this way! The sky was his! The winds were his. The chasms were his.

He would not!

Syl screamed, a terrified, painful sound that vibrated Kaladin’s very bones. In that moment, he got a breath of Stormlight, life itself.

 

By this time Kaladin has made two conflicting oaths, one not being very honorable at all as well as his hatred for Amaram.  The things had begun to weaken the bond between himself and Syl.  We see that Syl is slowly losing hersel and Kaladin is having difficulity infusing.  I think at the point he is falling he forces the stormlight and in doing this shreads the bond between him and Syl which is what 'kills' her.  I'm sure it likely involves spiritwebs and such but I just don't understand that well enough to work it into the explination

Edited March 7, 2014 by Azul

[Aminar]

But Investiture can grant intelligence. Remember the Mistwraiths on Scadrial? Quite unintelligent, until they receive "Blessings" via Hemalurgic Investiture and become Kandra. In the same way, Syl got her sentience and intelligence through Investiture that she somehow obtained through Kaladin, the Spiritual power granting her a Cognitive boost.

 

Or do you have an alternative Realmatic explanation for it?

Those spikes carry a piece of the person who was sacrificed on the spike, which is what grants the intelligence.

I would guess the same applies to Nightblood and breaths.

I think you're looking too far into it... She's getting a piece of Kal's mind to hold memories in while in the physical realm.

[marianmi]

Syl was getting intelligence.

With a weakening bond, Syl was losing herself. Kaladin could not surgebind.

Sometimes, he would see her around, acting like a windspren. He would talk to her, and she would become "conscious" for a few seconds, and Kaladin would surgebind again. Then she would become mindless again, take off, and Kaladin would stop surgebinding.

It's a spacial thing - further she would get from Kaladin, she would lose herself more.

Remember in TwoK when she went back for the leaves, she was afraid she would lose herself being that far away from Kaladin.

 

I don't think Syl died though, as the KR spren died. She was still "alive" when she was arguing with Stormfather, not mindless...

Edited March 7, 2014 by marianmi

[Morsk]

I think she broke like a pairing fabrial would, if used when the gems are too far apart. In this case it's not physical distance, but because the bond is weaker, but anyway:

“Proximity is a problem right now ,” she said. “The farther the pairs grow from one another, the weaker their interaction, and that causes them to crack more easily. You don’t see it with something light like a spanreed, but when working with heavy weights . . .

[Aleksiel]

But if that was when Syl died (before Kal falling in the chasm), then how did he survive without her? If she was no more, how could he inhale stormlight to heal himself? We saw he no longer could do it in the camp. How did they survive if not for Kal's surge or healing through stormlight? 

[skaa]

Those spikes carry a piece of the person who was sacrificed on the spike, which is what grants the intelligence.

I would guess the same applies to Nightblood and breaths.

I think you're looking too far into it... She's getting a piece of Kal's mind to hold memories in while in the physical realm.

 

I'm under the assumption that Investiture-- you know, the power of creation responsible for all the magics in the Cosmere-- is by definition responsible for the Nahel bond.

 

I wonder why you think that Hemalurgy is not a manifestation of Investiture. I thought that was common knowledge around here.

 

Ancient 17th Shard Question and Answer (Paraphrased)

CHAOS

This one is a personal favor... See, for metals that have Feruchemy, this verb is "charge". A metal is Feruchemically charged. But, you've been using the term "charge" for Hemalurgic metals, too, which I think is confusing. Before HoA I called Hemalurgic metals "Imbued" metals. I humbly petition to have that be the official term, because it's just confusing otherwise.

BRADON SANDERSON

The Seventeenth Shard members use the term of Invest for all of those type of things. However, what they use in world is different on each world. For example WoK is infuse.

I just prefer using Brandon's own terms than invent my own. The correct term already exists. I don't see how that is "looking too far into it."

 

Anyway, to restate my on-topic point: I believe that a bondspren cannot feed on the Investiture it needs when its bonded human has broken his oaths. With the loss of that Investiture source, the bondspren will have to use up its own Investiture reserves to Invest Surgebinding abilities on that human. In the case of Syl (and all the bondspren of the Lost Radiants), her human forced enough Investiture out of her that its sentience-granting effect was lost, and thus she "died".

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Aminar]

I didn't say it wasn't. I said the intelligence portion of it is cognitive residue. There's a difference.

[skaa]

I didn't say it wasn't. I said the intelligence portion of it is cognitive residue. There's a difference.

 

Ah, then we agree. The Investiture that Syl received from the Nahel bond granted her a Cognitive boost (intelligence). When the Investiture was no longer replenished by the bond (Kaladin's fault), it decreased every time Kaladin tried to use his abilities, until the level was so low that the Cognitive boost disappeared. Kind of like how the Heightenings fade when a person loses the necessary amount of Breath, a problem that can be fatal to a Returned.

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Aminar]

I don't think she's getting investiture though. Spren don't seem to need it. They more give it out. Like a spike. I honestly think she gets physical intelligence and that's it because that is a lot. Why would it need to be more? I suppose in a way she's getting a piece of Kal's soul. But that's not investiture either.

[skaa]

I don't think she's getting investiture though. Spren don't seem to need it. They more give it out. Like a spike. I honestly think she gets physical intelligence and that's it because that is a lot. Why would it need to be more? I suppose in a way she's getting a piece of Kal's soul. But that's not investiture either.

 

I think I explained my position already. I think it's Investiture because Hemalurgy is Investiture. You Invest a spike by getting attributes from someone, creating a Hemalurgic spike. You Invest someone with a Hemalurgic spike by spiking him at a particular spot. A human Invests a bondspren by performing certain actions that the bondspren is attracted to, creating a Nahel bond and giving her sentience. The bondspren Invests the human in turn, granting Surgebinding abilities.

 

The difference between Brandon's Cosmere works and many other fantasy books is that Brandon has actually made an underlying system behind all the magic systems: Realmatics, the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Realms and how Investiture affects all three. Basically, every single bit of magic in the Cosmere is simply a manipulation and transfer of Investiture to create an intended effect on the Realms. It makes the whole thing a bit more organized, almost scientific, with specific terminology that applies to all the Cosmere stories. It's something that I and a few other fans really, really like about these books.

 

The terminology already exists. Why not use it?

Edited March 7, 2014 by skaa

[Aminar]

Because there are three realms, not two. Spren are the first we've really seen of the cognitive realm, they operate on different rules. Thought isn't investiture. It can be encoded via invesiture but that feels wrong here. We're seeing a new system, something more than just investiture. Think of it as Syl modifies Kaldin's spiritweb, Kal modifies Syl's thoughtweb. You're approach nullifies statements made by two character's who know more about their existence than we do. Syl and Pattern have explained themselves plenty well. They get the ability to think in the physical realm. They get knowledge and experience of the physical world. That's a perfectly thorough explanation. They would know and say if they were getting some kind of mystical power out of the deal too.

[Djerf]

Quote

He would not die this way! The sky was his! The winds were his. The chasms were his.

He would not!

Syl screamed, a terrified, painful sound that vibrated Kaladin’s very bones. In that moment, he got a breath of Stormlight, life itself.

 

He betrays the first oath, journey before destination, but more than that, he forces power thru a faulty conduit. Imagine your self hanging over a cliff holding on for dear life to a old and weak rope that holds your weight but no more, if you just hang there and hope to be saved this rope will not break but if you try to climb up the added strain will snap it.

 

 

Off topic, Investiture =/= intelligence, you need to look no further than Preservation in it's final days, the full power of a shard behind it but still dumber than dirt and getting dumber by the hour. The nature of the Nahel bond would be that the spren gets an increased physical presence and the human gets and increased spiritual presence.

This quote lends credibility to this idea.

 

The spren betrayed us, it’s often felt.

Our minds are too close to their realm.

That gives us our forms, but more is then

Demanded by the smartest spren,

We can’t provide what the humans lend,

Though broth are we, their meat is men

One of the Parshendi song epigraphs.

 

Their minds are closer to the cognitive realm than mens minds which are firmly situated in the physical realm.

[skaa]

Because there are three realms, not two. Spren are the first we've really seen of the cognitive realm, they operate on different rules. Thought isn't investiture. It can be encoded via invesiture but that feels wrong here. We're seeing a new system, something more than just investiture.

You're ignoring the effects of the Heightenings on the Cognitive aspect of Nalthians, the Cognitive quadrant of Feruchemy, the Cognitive effects of the Kandra Blessings, of Tin, Gold, Atium and the Atium alloys. Even Soulstamp-based transformations on Sel depend on the Cognitive Realm. Every single one of those things are forms of Investiture. So is the Nahel bond interaction.

[clariscy]

I believe the answer is simple. When sly says she is as dead as kaladin's oaths she means that she too can rise again if the circumstances change. I believe in the fall Syl chooses to sacrifice herself for Kaladin and in doing so she breaks an oath, she gives too much in their bond and she pays the price. I believe that when Kaladin hears the voice asking him what did you do, it is referring to Syl choosing to put more faith into Kaldin than she received. Syl invested Kaldin with the last force she had, her essence manifest in the physical realm. She created a conduit of power for him built of her own being, because she believes in his honor.

[jefftucker0525]

Maybe Syl can transform Investiture into intelligence, but cant actually directly obtain investiture, however she can grant another the ability to obtain/use Investiture so long as the follow the precepts, so when Kaladin broke his Oaths he lost his ability to use Stromlight, so Syl could no longer create intelligence with Investiture because she had none to use unless she was right next to Kaladin at which point he could slightly Invest so she could then create intelligence.