[OB]Eshonai and Timbre, A Theory With No Evidence

[NotBurtReynolds]

Now I know there has been tons of discussions and well-reasoned arguments as it relates to if Timbre is somehow Eshonai, or is just a 'regular' Radiantspren, or something else entirely. I believe Timbre has to either be Eshonai or be the result of something equally spectacular. And I have no evidence to support it . My only "evidence" is the way we seen flashbacks move narratively. We're going to have an Eshonai book. We know she ends up dead in a chasm. After what we've seen revealed in the final flashback scenes of Shallan and Davilar, I find it hard to believe that Eshonai's last scene is just going to be her drowning, without something spectacular happening. Spectacular as in Eshonai somehow ends ups turned into Timbre..Or combined with Timbre...Or something else I don't understand the mechanics of  But it has to be something more major than, 'Eshonai drowns somehow, Timbre hides underneath her'.

[RShara]

I would suggest using one of the existing threads for the discussion, as duplicate threads are frowned upon.  Here is one that has a similar starting point: 

 

[NotBurtReynolds]

I didn't put my post in that thread because its a bunch of theorizing. As I mentioned, I don't have a theory(the title was a joke). Just a had a feeling I wanted to voice, given how the other books have been structured.

Edited December 15, 2017 by NotBurtReynolds

[RShara]

Okay, well Timbre says that her grandfather was killed in the Recreance.  So she really can't be Eshonai.

[NotBurtReynolds]

7 minutes ago, RShara said:

Okay, well Timbre says that her grandfather was killed in the Recreance.  So she really can't be Eshonai.

Okay, well I think you missed the point of my post. Wasn't trying to come up with a definite answer, because I don't have one. And, I've been reading that thread, interesting stuff, but not what I wanted to discuss. I just wanted to have a mention my thoughts about how flashback character arcs have been written and how they may be written in the future, without getting into all the specific mechanics of what can and cannot happen Realmatically. Thank you for shooting me down so succinctly.

[RShara]

Brandon's said that the flashback character doesn't have to be alive during their book.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be mean.  I can see where you're coming from and why you think that Timbre could've been Eshonai. But alas, it's not the case.  So goes many of my own theories

[NotBurtReynolds]

55 minutes ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Now I know there has been tons of discussions and well-reasoned arguments as it relates to if Timbre is somehow Eshonai, or is just a 'regular' Radiantspren, or something else entirely. I believe Timbre has to either be Eshonai or be the result of something equally spectacular. And I have no evidence to support it . My only "evidence" is the way we seen flashbacks move narratively. We're going to have an Eshonai book. We know she ends up dead in a chasm. After what we've seen revealed in the final flashback scenes of Shallan and Davilar, I find it hard to believe that Eshonai's last scene is just going to be her drowning, without something spectacular happening. Spectacular as in Eshonai somehow ends ups turned into Timbre..Or combined with Timbre...Or something else I don't understand the mechanics of  But it has to be something more major than, 'Eshonai drowns somehow, Timbre hides underneath her'.

I'm not saying Timbre is Eshonai...Like I said, no theory, no guess. I'm only saying that I think it's something more spectacular than "Timbre's a regular Knightspren who was hiding underneath Eshonai". That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[RShara]

I took Eshonai's last scene to be in the battle with Adolin in WoR. 

[NotBurtReynolds]

2 minutes ago, RShara said:

I took Eshonai's last scene to be in the battle with Adolin in WoR. 

I'm speaking of the scene we're going to see from her POV in her book. The last moments of Eshonai, as it were, from her eyes. I don't recall Kal's from WoK, but we got major information from Shallan's last flashback scene and much, much more from Dalinar's. I just think that the time period between her battle with Adolin and Venli finding her corpse is going to be very revelatory, given what we've gotten previously from the flashback chapters. Maybe not, though. Maybe it's as straightforward as Eshonai drowned before she could actually bond Timbre, a la Elhokar, and Timbre hid just like his Cryptic did. Or maybe it's something else. And with Brandon, I tend to err on/wish for, the 'something else'

[Messremb]

I had a crazy thought, but I haven't thought it through much yet. What if Eshonai's spirit web or cognitive self some how latched on to Timber as she died. a few reasons I could see for this are that we don't really understand how the parsh bonding with the radiant spren works, it may be even more involved than the normal Nahel bond. The thing that seems most important to me is that she died in a highstorm! What if she and timber were bonding as she died, and part of her latched on to timber. I guess this would still mean she is dead, but also still kind of alive. It could at least explain how we will get her flash back as a relevant part of the story.  

[RShara]

It could be.  Her flashbacks will definitely be interesting.

[Cenanin]

4 hours ago, RShara said:

Okay, well Timbre says that her grandfather was killed in the Recreance.  So she really can't be Eshonai.

Nope. Venli says that and then Timbre pulses with "irritation." 

Venli doesn't understand what Timbre is trying to say, that's why Timbre was irritated.

[RShara]

Venli does, in fact, understand what Timbre is saying.

Quote

“This bond was supposed to be impossible,” she whispered to Timbre.

Timbre pulsed to Peace.

“I’m happy too,” Venli whispered. “But why me? Why not one of the humans?”

Timbre pulsed to Irritation, then the Lost.

“That many? I had no idea the human betrayal had cost so many of your people’s lives. And your own grandfather?”

Irritation again.

“I’m not sure how much I trust the humans either. Eshonai did though.”

She's clearly getting specific responses and replying to them.

The second Irritation is about how much she doesn't trust humans.

[Cenanin]

5 hours ago, NotBurtReynolds said:

Now I know there has been tons of discussions and well-reasoned arguments as it relates to if Timbre is somehow Eshonai, or is just a 'regular' Radiantspren, or something else entirely. I believe Timbre has to either be Eshonai or be the result of something equally spectacular. And I have no evidence to support it . My only "evidence" is the way we seen flashbacks move narratively. We're going to have an Eshonai book. We know she ends up dead in a chasm. After what we've seen revealed in the final flashback scenes of Shallan and Davilar, I find it hard to believe that Eshonai's last scene is just going to be her drowning, without something spectacular happening. Spectacular as in Eshonai somehow ends ups turned into Timbre..Or combined with Timbre...Or something else I don't understand the mechanics of  But it has to be something more major than, 'Eshonai drowns somehow, Timbre hides underneath her'.

There's a ton of evidence. Here's some.

Timbre doesn't communicate in language. It communicates in Rhythms. 
THEY ARE THE SPREN OF PARSHMEN LONG DEAD - Stormfather to Dalinar.
 

I don't feel like writing a lot more. But the evidence that the Parshmen are born with a spren inside their gemheart, I call it a soulspren is a lot.Even the definition of the word Timbre points to it being a Parshendi, or at least heavily related to them.

tim·bre

ˈtambər/

noun

 

1. the character or quality of a musical sound or voice as distinct from its pitch and intensity. (the Rhythms).

5 minutes ago, RShara said:

Venli does, in fact, understand what Timbre is saying.

She's clearly getting specific responses and replying to them.

The second Irritation is about how much she doesn't trust humans.

I disagree that she fully understands what Timbre is saying. Because he's not saying anything. I think he is communicating with her but she's confusing what it means. Something is being lost in translation I think.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Chaos

[RShara]

Grandfather, and an actual number of dead spren seems pretty specific.  It would be odd that Venli comes up with these or misunderstands something into these concepts  There's also this part right after it.  It's clear Venli understands what Timbre is saying.

 

Quote

Timbre pulsed to Praise.

“The listeners?” Venli whispered to the spren. “We didn’t do that good a job of resisting Odium. As soon as we got a hint of power, we came running back to him.” That had been her fault. She had driven them toward new information, new powers. She’d always hungered for it. Something new.

Timbre pulsed to Consolation, but then it blended, changing once again to Resolve.

Venli hummed the same transformation.

Something new.

But also something old.

She walked to the two sailors. They immediately stood at attention, saluting her as the only Regal on the ship, holding a form of power. “I know who you were,” she said to the two of them.

 

 

Quote

tim·bre

ˈtambər/

noun

 

1. the character or quality of a musical sound or voice as distinct from its pitch and intensity. (the Rhythms).

Venli names Timbre, so the name doesn't have relevance to who Timbre is.

Also, there's a WoB somewhere that I'm trying to find, where Brandon says the SF sometimes uses the wrong terminology for things.  Ah hah, here it is.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/81-shadows-of-self-newcastle-uk-signing/#e5723

Quote

BlackYeti (paraphrased)

In Words of Radiance, the Stormfather refers to himself as a Sliver, how is this the case when he is apparently a Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Stormfather is a Cognitive Shadow, but he doesn't know the correct terminology. Terms such as splinter and Sliver don't really apply to him.

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by RShara

[Kaymyth]

Brandon doesn't always spell things out for us. He knows his readers are smart, and thus lets us intuit some things.

The exchanges between Venli and Timbre suggest heavily to me that their bond carries a certain level of empathic communication that we're not seeing explicitly. This sort of thing can be difficult to write. I think Brandon opted for this approach for very practical reasons: to allow the text to flow more freely and cut down a bit on word count.

[Ymawgat]

I'm pretty convinced Eshonai will come back in the next book and have a nahel bond with her own willshaper spren.

Source: I want her to.

[Cenanin]

3 hours ago, RShara said:

Grandfather, and an actual number of dead spren seems pretty specific.  It would be odd that Venli comes up with these or misunderstands something into these concepts  There's also this part right after it.  It's clear Venli understands what Timbre is saying.

 

While I agree it is specific. I think they are communicating in images/thoughts/experiences, and I think Venli is misunderstanding what Timbre is trying to convey to her somehow. Or it is right but when Timbre is referring to grandfather it's not what we think he means. The Spren are strange. It may seem straight out spelled out but I don't think it is. I think there is too much evidence that the Parshendi naturally carry a spren in their gemheart from birth, that spren is what I believe Timbre is. I don't believe it is Eshonai, but I believe it lived in Eshonai's gemheart her whole life. 

[RShara]

...But Eshonai saw Timbre herself before she died.  Timbre was flying around her for weeks.

And I think assuming a misunderstanding when there's no evidence of such is..well, a really big assumption.  Add to that Ico's statement that his father is a deadeye, and his daughter ran off to become a Radiant spren ("chasing dreams"), I think it's pretty obvious that Timbre is a Willshaper spren.

It's possible that Listeners are born with a spren in their gemhearts (though I find it unlikely, because spren aren't born that way?), but that spren is not Timbre.  Timbre is a Radiant spren. She grants surges.  There's no way Eshonai, or a spren that Eshonai was born with, would grant surges.

Edited December 16, 2017 by RShara

[Kaymyth]

41 minutes ago, Cenanin said:

While I agree it is specific. I think they are communicating in images/thoughts/experiences, and I think Venli is misunderstanding what Timbre is trying to convey to her somehow. Or it is right but when Timbre is referring to grandfather it's not what we think he means. The Spren are strange. It may seem straight out spelled out but I don't think it is. I think there is too much evidence that the Parshendi naturally carry a spren in their gemheart from birth, that spren is what I believe Timbre is. I don't believe it is Eshonai, but I believe it lived in Eshonai's gemheart her whole life. 

It's definitely not Eshonai; it's the Radiant spren that was following Eshonai around. And we have this WoB:

Quote

 

Oathbringer Houston signing (Nov. 18, 2017)
#1 Share

 

Play/Pause

 

Vulcronos [PENDING REVIEW]

Is Book Four still planned to be Eshonai's viewpoint?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

Yes.

Vulcronos [PENDING REVIEW]

And, would she have been a Willshaper?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

She would be the same Order as her sister.

Source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8413

 

Plus there's the fact that Venli's bond with Timbre settled into place when she spoke the First Ideal. It's pretty obvious that Timbre is a Radiant spren.

[Calderis]

And the deadeyes on the Reacher's boat is Captain Ico's father (possibly Timbre's grandfather), and the Honorspren on their ship speaks of his the way the Stormfather made spren after the Recreance, and he was made/descended from those spren. 

The familial relationships are clear. 

 

Then you have Eshonai's mother in the WoR interludes speaking from her delusions of the past about Eshonai's "Day of first Transformation" implying that the Parsh are not born with spren, but go into the storm to bond one as a coming of age. 

Venli is obviously having a conversation with Timbre. With the information given, and the other information we've received in the books, including Venli having a Nahel bond, Timbre can't be Eshonai. 

Edited December 16, 2017 by Calderis

[Cenanin]

7 hours ago, Kaymyth said:

It's definitely not Eshonai; it's the Radiant spren that was following Eshonai around. And we have this WoB:

Source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8413

 

Plus there's the fact that Venli's bond with Timbre settled into place when she spoke the First Ideal. It's pretty obvious that Timbre is a Radiant spren.

I still don't know why people say a Radiant spren was following Eshonai around, and there's no proof that Timbre is an existing Radiant spren. 

How will book 4 be Eshonai's PoV if she's dead, which she obviously was.

[BeskarKomrk]

5 hours ago, Cenanin said:

I still don't know why people say a Radiant spren was following Eshonai around, and there's no proof that Timbre is an existing Radiant spren. 

How will book 4 be Eshonai's PoV if she's dead, which she obviously was.

First of all, Brandon has said that the characters who have the flashback sequence in the book can be dead (so Eshonai can be dead and still have the flashbacks in Book 4).

Timbre says that their grandfather was killed in the Recreance. As far as we know, all the spren killed in the Recreance were Radiant spren. That would imply their grandfather was a Radiant spren, and if Timbre is the same kind, that they are too.

There was a spren in Eshonai's Interludes in WoR that was following her around, with an appearance very similar to that of Timbre. In fact, it may well have been Timbre. Either way, likely a Radiant spren.

[Kaymyth]

13 hours ago, Cenanin said:

I still don't know why people say a Radiant spren was following Eshonai around, and there's no proof that Timbre is an existing Radiant spren.

Seriously? You're claiming that there's no proof of Timbre being a Radiant spren in the exact same post you quoted me citing two examples of said proof? I'll recap:

1. A WoB where Brandon clearly states that Venli belongs to a Radiant Order (the same one Eshonai would have been).

2. Venli actually swearing the First Ideal of the Radiants in order to bond Timbre.

I really don't know how much clearer it has to be.

Quote

How will book 4 be Eshonai's PoV if she's dead, which she obviously was.

The flashbacks will be in Eshonai's POV, while Venli picks up as a modern-day major viewpoint character.

[Vortaan]

7 hours ago, Cenanin said:

I still don't know why people say a Radiant spren was following Eshonai around, and there's no proof that Timbre is an existing Radiant spren. 

How will book 4 be Eshonai's PoV if she's dead, which she obviously was.

Also: if Eshonai turned into a spren, how did she manage it? Fused are invested by Odium to pull off their trick. How would Eshonai have managed the same without intervention from Cultivation or Honor? If Timbre is Eshonai, then why does bonding with Venli not destroy Venli like the other Fused do to their hosts? There are many many problems with the idea that Eshonai is Timbre. I thought the same when the preview chapters were coming out but there is a lot of evidence in the book as to who Timbre actually is that disproves all of it.