(Some) Spren Not Liking Shardblades

[treblkickd]

I've tried to peruse all of the spren/shardblade threads floating around but couldn't find anything recent that really talks about what we know re: spren disliking shardblades. My point with this thread is that it is not clear that all Nahel bonding spren have an aversion to shardblades. So what do we know? Forewarning: sorry about the length - this was all very much a thinking-out-loud kind of deal.

 

1) Syl doesn't like them. She is repulsed by Dalinar's shardblade, and also (I think?) mentions being drawn to Kaladin in part based on his choice to refuse the shardblade that he wins. As far as I can recall, however, Syl never provides justification for how she feels. It comes of as instinctual - and to speculate a little - has a similar feel to her offhand comment about Cryptics (which she cannot explain or justify when asked about it).

 

2) Shallan has a shardblade, and has also recently acquired Pattern. Shallan has had a shardblade for quite some time, but has also had no trouble attracting a spren over that period. One could argue that b/c Shallan doesn't summon her shardblade often (or at all?) that Pattern might just be ignorant of it, but that seems very unlikely.

 

3) Wyndle, who seems to have retained more knowledge/memory than Syl or Pattern since crossing over, doesn't immediately recognize the shardblades (or honorblade + shardblade) that Darkness and his minions have. He just says, "There's something about those weapons they carry...", which seems to express mild curiosity and an acknowledgement that they aren't normal weapons, but no distaste or animosity. Also possibly relevant: Wyndle boasts about creating gardens that both Cryptics and honorspren enjoy, implying that he occupies some sort of neutral position in spren politics.

 

4) The Knights Radiant of the past obviously possessed both Nahel bonded spren and shardblades; we've seen this first-hand with Wind Runners, Stonewards, and (presumably) Dustbringers.

 

5) Renarin apparently sees a spren, with implications that it is a Nahel bonding spren, and he is reluctant to accept a shardblade, grimacing when he receives it. There's lots of vague speculation involved in including this last point here just b/c we don't *know* that Renarin sees and/or is developing a bond with a Nahel spren, but this seems to be the consensus best-guess for what's going on with him.

 

 

From #'s 1 and 2 above, along w/ Jasnah's comments about the Honorspren/Cryptic tensions, it could well be that Syl's dislike of shardblades is a symptom, or in some way related to, the disagreement between different factions of spren. #3 doesn't provide much in the way of hard evidence, but I think everything we see from Wyndle is consistent with the above. #4 strongly suggests that whatever dislike for shardblades that Syl/Honorspre or a broader subset of spren have is probably a relatively recent (ie post-Recreance) development. #5 could imply that Renarin's spren - assuming that he's getting one - is on the Honorspren side of any spren politics.

 

All together, I think there's solid evidence that some spren not liking shardblades might be more of a political thing than anything to do with a fundamental evil-ness of shardblades. Another alternative is that the shardblades that we've seen shunned by spren (Dalinar's, the one Adolin gives Renarin, also Amaram's?) have both been in circulation among the Alethi of late, and we've seen ample evidence of the Thrill (assumed to be Odium-related) as a pretty widespread thing in Alethela. So it's possible that spren (or maybe still just some spren) are turned off by specific shardblades, depending on how they've been used recently, and/or what flavors of shard/investiture (assuming the Thrill involves any Odium related investiture) may have touched them recently. Or perhaps the most likely conclusions is that both of the above are going on, i.e., honorspren are repulsed by Odium while those less aligned with Honor are not, and it's divides such as this that lead to spren politics.

[vikorr]

I'm guessing it has to the with the betrayal of the spren. Windrunners were the major group at Feverstone, and Syl is a windrunner spren. Most weapons would, according to the theories, somehow be linked to the betrayal / death of spren.

 

It appears that the larger weapons tended to belong to Windrunners...and perhaps not suprisingly, the shardbearers using those tend to favour windstance.

 

Of course, likely anything - this is all supposition.

[GalaticSoldier]

I'm thinking this has to do with how Fabrials and perhaps shardblades work.

 

Combine that with Alice's post from here: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/5956-dawnshards-and-their-relationship-to-the-listeners/

 

That if considered in another light implies the following: It's been noted that fabrials work by attracting spren, then trapping them in a gem to immitate a bond of soulcasting.

 

So, if shardblades are using a very advanced form of fabrial like tech, that means that each shardblade may convievably have trapped spren inside of it that are powering it.

Syl's discomfort then may be because it's only Honor Spren who are trapped inside.

[Gloom]

I believe that those KR who abandoned their blades at Feverstone basically killed their spren. Those spren were by and large the spren of Windrunners and Stonewardens. Sylphrena may see the blades as both executioners and corpses. She is the only spren who has thus far shown any reaction to a Shardblade.

 

An appeal from the Cryptics:

On behalf of the free society of Cryptics, I would ask that you to cease and desist lumping all spren together based on the actions of one renegade Honorspren. Sylphrena is not even a good candidate to represent her own spren type, let alone the multitudes of other spren who exist within the cognitive realm. She is a criminal and should she approach you we would advise caution. She entered the physical realm illegally and is suspected of a multitude of other crimes. The very fact that she bonded to a dangerous renegade slave who repeatedly disregarded the wishes of his superiors should be evidence enough of her poor judgement and anti-establishment type thinking.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this. If you encounter Sylphrena, please contact us by thinking about it really really hard.

The Board of free Cryptics.

[Beautor]

I believe that those KR who abandoned their blades at Feverstone basically killed their spren. Those spren were by and large the spren of Windrunners and Stonewardens. Sylphrena may see the blades as both executioners and corpses. She is the only spren who has thus far shown any reaction to a Shardblade.

 

An appeal from the Cryptics:

On behalf of the free society of Cryptics, I would ask that you to cease and desist lumping all spren together based on the actions of one renegade Honorspren. Sylphrena is not even a good candidate to represent her own spren type, let alone the multitudes of other spren who exist within the cognitive realm. She is a criminal and should she approach you we would advise caution. She entered the physical realm illegally and is suspected of a multitude of other crimes. The very fact that she bonded to a dangerous renegade slave who repeatedly disregarded the wishes of his superiors should be evidence enough of her poor judgement and anti-establishment type thinking.

 

Thank you for taking the time to read this. If you encounter Sylphrena, please contact us by thinking about it really really hard.

The Board of free Cryptics.

 

Love it. I also tend to agree with your belief that Syl dislikes shardblades because of what happened at Feverstone Keep, but I will reserve judgement for another couple weeks until WoR is in my hands. I'm sure we will get more clues (and more mysteries) then.

[Asha'man Logain]

Great ideas. I never considered that honorspren may have a unique perspective on shadblades. Until we get more information though, I'm gonna stick with personal pet theory, which is:

 

I believe that the shardblades were made by Honor or at least by an Honor influenced process. The blades come into the physical realm from the spiritual, and retain aspects of their spiritual properties. The blades will cut any non-living thing, but when it encounters a living being the part that would have cut it phases back into the Spiritual realm. The intent I believe was to make it safer for the KR to fight thunderclasts, midnight essences and such, without the possibility of harming those civilians and others who may be around in need of rescuing.

 

I also think that Odium either corrupted the blades, or the shattering of Honor corrupted them. (Either way it's Odium's fault.) I think what happens now, is that although the blades still try to function the way they were designed, when they phase out to the spiritual realm, they retain their severing ability normally only associated with their physical manifestation. This results in the severing of the spiritual connections, and somehow burning eyes.

 

~Logain

 

EDIT:  I forgot to tie it in to the spren. OOPS.

 

The spren are mostly Cognitive and  are therefore closer to the spiritual realm. They see the severing of a being's spiritual aspect as the ultimate murder. I would postulate that a severed spiritual aspect prevent travel to whatever afterlife may exist on Roshar. (we know for a fact that there is an afterlife on Scadrial, but I do not know if it is the same 'place' as the one Rosharans would go to, or even if there is one on Roshar. It could very well be that the low investiture on Scardial leaves the rest free to create an afterlife, perhaps the high investiture on Roshar makes one nonexistent)

 

EDIT2: On re-reading my post I find I did not make clear that is all wild speculation. I may not have been clear and nothing written should be taken as WOB or even a quoted and cited theory.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Asha'man Logain

[vikorr]

I believe that the shardblades were made by Honor or at least by an Honor influenced process. 

 

In Dalinar's WoR vision, it appears that this is incorrect. The formation of the Knights Radiant surprised Honor.

[AerionBFII]

Maybe they have been tainted by so much meaningless violence after the KR left them.

 

I can't remember the quote but during dalinar's vision when the KR left their shardblades, dalinar approached the glow seemed to dim 

but vanished completely when the other soldiers came to steal them? or was that the spren bond breaking? 

 

Like minutes after the soldiers began to slaughter each other, i think that tainted them somehow.

[FollowYourMuse]

Maybe they have been tainted by so much meaningless violence after the KR left them.

 

I can't remember the quote but during dalinar's vision when the KR left their shardblades, dalinar approached the glow seemed to dim 

but vanished completely when the other soldiers came to steal them? or was that the spren bond breaking? 

 

Like minutes after the soldiers began to slaughter each other, i think that tainted them somehow.

 

I theorize that it is the combination first the betrayal broke the bond with the spren. (killing or making them forget who they were) 

And then  the plates and blades became tainted/corrupted by their use.

 

I tend to think it is not Honor Spren that were trapped in the plates and blades, but more of an agreement ...   like working with Syl the gravity spren hold the rock to the wall for Kaladin,  so maybe other spren were trapped, who have no choice now and are used without that agreement.  

 

Like when Syl says in Wor Chapter 9 - Walking the Grave

“If I toss something upward, it comes back down.”

“Except when it doesn’t.”

“It’s a law.”

“No,” Syl said, looking upward. “It’s more like… more like

an agreement among friends.”

[Dros]

I don't know, I got the impression that it was Dalinar's Blade in particular she didn't care for. She never before and has not since, mentioned a dislike for other Blades, has she? However, I will concede it may have been situational, i.e. it was the first time she focused her observation on a Shardblade. But IMO it didn't seem she was making a blanket statement about all Blades.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Dros

[WitSpren]

I think that the Almighty said someting like - he was suprised that the Spren were able to mimic what he had given the Heralds.    That and Syl reaction to Dalinar's giving up his blade and the vision where all 300 KRs gave up their Shardplate and Shardblades & it faded visably.    and a few other things, gives me the impression that when Kal completes his KR conversion (such as confronting Amaram but not killing him - Not seeking Vengence) that it will complete his bond to Syl and she will Morph to the Physical realm as his (on call) Shardplate & Shardblade.    Hence the Glow as that signifies her bond to specifically him.      This will probably have reprocussions for her as she can never go back.    That relates to the KR at the Purelake talking to herself (she was actually talking to her shard).      It also might have meaning in th Adonalin talking to his Shardblade, maybe the blade was created by a spren that is almost compatable with him, that he has developed a sort of link.    So the KR betrayal of the Spren was to abandon them (locked & powerless in the Shardplate & Shardblades) to be used by non-KR quality people.    This un-justified use hurts the attached/traped physical manufestation spren.      

 

Anyway, back to Dalinar, I think that Syls comment had to do with the fact that he was not a good spiritual match for the shardblade Spern & so it was blocking him from meeting his own true spren,     Maybe Syl could feel that.

 

I also think that Syl's appearance as Full Size, and her changing appearance later after the Betrayal at the Tower, is a sign that Kal & she are getting real close to the Change.     This Amaram confrontation may be the last step for them - can't wait!!!

[beef man]

I didn't read this throughly but the shard-bonding relationship is an issue I have seen commented here and there all over the forms. Could it simply be different plates and blades belonged to/were compatible with different KR powers/styles?

[StormLight_Luc]

Adding to WitSpren post I had the idea that the shards, both plate & shard are in fact the corpses of the spren that once bonded to the men and women that became the KR.

Maybe the way to kill spren is that they can't exist in the physical realm without a bond keeping them there and as such, when the KR broke their oaths (reasons unknown for them all to do so) weren't able to survive. Not being able to return to the cognitive realm/Shadesmar without the bond, the shards/physical body remain but not the spirit/spren that allowed them to work as Dalinar saw in his visions.

Ditto the reason why Dalinar's shads glow is because somehow their resonate with the acts of valor that he does, an echo of the vows the Radiants once upheld.

[Trill]

Pattern IS Shallan's Shard Blade.  Ivory is Jasnah'a Shard Blade.

Dalinar has visions of the Radiants where their armor glows as "if alive with stormlight".  Their helmets disapear and reapear without being removed like current Shard Blades do.

It is an accepted fact that the Radiants betrayal killed a ton of Spren (per Syl and Pattern.  I believe their are other sources.).  

 

Syl describes the Shards weilded by non Spren bonded hunans as being "wrong".

Navani talks about how Shard Blades, like Shard Plate, didn't dissapear and reapear.  It was only after trying to ornament the blade pomels that this was accidently discovered.

They haven't been able to discover how to even really come close to recreating Shards (with a minor success in half shard shields that don't regenerate once broken)

With all this, doesn't it serve that:

A ) Shard Plate and Shard Blades have a similar origin (probable)

B ) Given the above, if Pattern and Ivory are Shallan and Jasnahs Shard Blade, They may also be able to manifest as Plate (the Radiants, as stated above, were able to dismiss their armor like Blades currently are.)

C )  Shard Blades and Plate are essentially the physical representation of the dead Spren which were killed when the Radiants broke their bond with their Spren. Literally, dead bodies of Spren.

 

D )  Spren aren't repulsed by Shards.  They are repulsed by Shards scavenged when the Radiants broke their bonds with their Spren.  They are repulsed by us using their dead Kins bodies.  A living Shard like Pattern or Ivory isn't repulsive.  They are alive and manifesting themselves.

 

[Yata]

@Trill probably you didn't notice. But this topic is very old, the last reply before your are a couple of weeks before Words of Radiance's release.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Yata