Cultivation and Honor (Spoilers)

[cris34b]

This is my first post, so I'm going to have to ask you to stick with me here.

 

Honor, aka the Almighty, as we all know, is dead, splintered by Odium. My first thought was 'Oh, then the Spren must be his splinters.' WRONG. The spren have been around during the time of the Almighty, as shown by one point in the book (possibly a Words of Radiance spoiler)

in which the Almighty talks about how the Knights Radiant forming was not of his doing, but something that surprised him.

This says that Surgebinders existed during the time the Almighty was alive, and thus so did the spren (Nahel Bond). However, that does not mean the Spren are not -of- the Allmighty. I believe that all spren are a form of the Almighty's investiture in the world, as they seem to have all -bonded- with specific emotions/elements/abilities.

 

WoR spoiler

Side note, in Words of Radiance, it is revealed that the spren are able to be seen zipping by from the Origin by the Parshendi before they manifest into their commonly seen forms. This tends to support the idea that the spren, along with the Highstorms, are a product of Honor which, despite his death, continues on, possibly because the Spren are already living things and, like humans in Elantris, did not die just because their creator did. This would also excuse the continued existence of the ever-so-rare Surgebinder.

 

Now, second part of this theory. If the spren are all from Honor, what does that leave Cultivation? Well, that leaves him with Shinovar. Think about it. Unlike what Ruin and Preservation did, fighting for power, Honor and Cultivation decided to split up the land, they made a deal of sorts. Honor would get the land and shape it any way he wanted so long as it didn't mess with Cultivation's area. Thus the mountains around Shinovar so that Cultivation's land wasn't effected by the Highstorms.

 

This would explain many things. First of all, it explains the lack of spren in Shinovar, since Honor has no sway there. Second, it would explain why the Shinese revere farmers and hate warriors, since warriors have to do with Honor, and farming has to do with Cultivation. Thirdly, it might explain the Shinese reverence of rock. The mountains that separate Shinovar from the rest of Roshar could be a holy symbol of their god's protection.

 

 

Small side theory, I think Cultivation might actually be a man, since at the end of WoK, when Taravangian is talking to Szeth, he says, "Sometimes I wonder if the Lifebrother himself sent you to me." I know the Lifebrother is a nickname for one of the Heralds, and the Herald might have been an Edgedancer, which would explain Lifebrother, you know, growing plants and healing people could have to do with Life, but that is just a side theory. (thanks for the comments. I believe the Lifebrother might still be a Herald, though not Cultivation, and I do feel slightly stupid for posting this part.)

 

WoR spoiler

Other side theory, as recently shown in Words of Radiance, the spren seem to zip from the origin before slowing down and becoming the form commonly seen. Thus, the lack of spren in Shinovar, might simply be a result of the mountains blocking the spren's path. But this begs the question; why can spren exist in a sealed building and not in Shinovar? So the lack of spren is likely caused by something more magical than a mountain.

 

WoR spoiler

Now for a whopper. In Words of Radiance, Syl tells Kaladin that she is the ONLY HONOR SPREN to have come to Roshar. But -wait a minute- Kaladin has the same abilities as Szeth. Note that even in Seth's point of view, we never see him with a spren? At one point, Brandon says about Mistborn, that Ruin could power Allomancy, and Preservation could power Hemalurgy, but they choose not to, because they aren't as good at it. Well, this brings to mind that Szeth is Shinese, and that the Shin have no spren, so perhaps this is why he is Truthless. Szeth has done the unspeakable, and has been granted the powers of Honor in the only way Cultivation could grant. Cultivation gave him possibly weakened surgebinding skills in exchange for his nature as Truthless. (Update: Brandon has confirmed that Szeth does not have a spren! What could this mean for the story? I wish I knew.)

 

Szeth's  people, under the command of Cultivation, who I believe not only is still alive, but occasionally communicates with his/her people, gave Szeth a Shardblade as mentioned in the before quoted conversation with Taravangian. Not only does this mean Kaladin has the potential to be an immensely more powerful Windrunner but also gives an implication that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation.

 

I say this because perhaps Szeth wished for the powers of a Radiant, and so got Windrunner powers, but in return for the great cost of being eternally enslaved, doomed to kill, and yet seemingly absolved of all sins he is forced to commit, for this is the price their god made him commit. 

 

Any thoughts?

Edited February 5, 2014 by cris34b

[hoser]

Welcome cris34b!  Please accept an introductory upvote. 

 

One nitpicky point.  Posts with WoR spoilers are meant to be in the WoR subforum or enclosed in spoiler tags.  The moderators can move the thread, but until or unless, you could put spoiler tags on the WoR content to protect the experience of those who don't want to deal w/spoilers. 

 

I find a lot of wonderful thought here.  I've been wondering about the Lifebrother and I am delighted to see your thoughts on what he might involve.  I want to add some information gleaned from interviews that you may not be aware of. 

• WoB is that Cultivation and Honor were romantically involved.
• WoB is that the spren we have seen in tWoK are all of Honor, Cultivation or both. 
• Other WoB is that there are spren that are splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar.
• WoB has spren serving as a release mechanism of sorts for the Honor's post-splintering power.  This, combined with the many more mundane spren in Kaladin-era Roshar compared to Tanavasts visions, suggests to some that some of the Kaladin-era spren are a post-splintering phenomena.

In the final vision of tWoK, Honor claims that "I cannot see the future completely.  Cultivation, she is better at it than I. ..."  I accept Cultivation as female unless it turns out that Honor is not the source of the visions.

 

Given the WoB, I think some of the Nahel bond spren are wholly or partially of Cultivation. 

 

I can look up the WoB quotes if needed, and your thoughtful exposition triggered more that I don't want to put in this non-WoR forum.

Edited February 5, 2014 by hoser

[Shardlet]

Well, you've thought things through.  But I think you missed a couple of details.  We know from WoB that Honor and Cultivation were an item and Wyndle's comments suggest pretty strongly that Cultivation is female.  You've got a couple of things in here that I'm not sure how correct they are, but I haven't been spending that much time here lately so I can't say for sure off-hand.

[cris34b]

So sorry about the spoiler tags, I'm not sure how to put those in, could you tell me so that I can edit it and avoid that next time?

Also, thanks a ton for the input, I didn't know that about the spren being splinters of Adonalsium, probably the Nightwatcher, and possibly the Stormfather, if he is a Spren (?). Also, what makes you feel the Nahel bonds are of Cultivation? The whole process seems a bit honor-related to me when I think it through. You know, with bonds and vows being a thing of honor, and with honorspren.

[hoser]

Spoiler tags can be done with the editor widget just to the left of the font box, which gives a dropdown menu that includes "spoiler" or by hand editing [spoilier]spoiler content[/spoilier] only with "spoiler" instead of "spoilier".

So sorry about the spoiler tags, I'm not sure how to put those in, could you tell me so that I can edit it and avoid that next time?

Also, thanks a ton for the input, I didn't know that about the spren being splinters of Adonalsium, probably the Nightwatcher, and possibly the Stormfather, if he is a Spren (?). Also, what makes you feel the Nahel bonds are of Cultivation? The whole process seems a bit honor-related to me when I think it through. You know, with bonds and vows being a thing of honor, and with honorspren.

WoR spoiler:

The early Shallan chapter and the Dalinar vision lead me to believe that the Nahel bonds are spren creations.  I believe the spren that create them are made of Honor's and/or Cultivation's investiture.  Some of the bonding spren that we didn't see in tWoK could also conceivably be Adonalsium-spren.

 

Edit: grammar, spoiler details

Edited February 5, 2014 by hoser

[cris34b]

Spoiler tags can be done with the editor widget just to the left of the font box, which gives a dropdown menu that includes "spoiler" or by hand editing [spoilier]spoiler content[/spoilier] only with "spoiler" instead of "spoilier".

WoR spoiler:

The early Shallan chapter and the Dalinar vision lead me to believe that the Nahel bonds are spren creations.  I believe the spren that create them are made of Honor's and/or Cultivation's investiture.  Some of the bonding spren that we didn't see in tWoK could also conceivably be Adonalsium-spren.

 

Edit: grammar, spoiler details

Thanks so much for this, I went ahead and edited it. This was a great help, really. 

[Elbereth]

This has provoked some interesting thoughts for me. To expand upon what this would indicate Szeth did... This is what I think you're saying.

Perhaps he became Truthless because he went to Nightwatcher for a boon (big nono in Shinovar for whatever reason) and his boon is Windrunner powers, but his curse is to obey any who have the Oathstone absolutely. He has no choice. The thing about Cultivation giving him an honorblade as the only way to grant him those powers works really well with this, if Cultivation=Nightwatcher (very possible).

[cris34b]

This has provoked some interesting thoughts for me. To expand upon what this would indicate Szeth did... This is what I think you're saying.

Perhaps he became Truthless because he went to Nightwatcher for a boon (big nono in Shinovar for whatever reason) and his boon is Windrunner powers, but his curse is to obey any who have the Oathstone absolutely. He has no choice. The thing about Cultivation giving him an honorblade as the only way to grant him those powers works really well with this, if Cultivation=Nightwatcher (very possible).

Hmm, I'm not sure on Cultivation giving him an Honorblade, since at one point in WoK, (I forget where) Szeth mentions his people giving him a Shardblade before kicking him out of Shinovar. So I think he got the Windrunner powers, and then his people gave him the Shardblade as a sort of finishing touch, a little slap in the face, so to speak.

[marianmi]

I think Szeth was a proeminent researcher/philosopher in Shinovar, up to the point where he discovered something or came up with some ideas/theories that were contrary to everyone else (like Galileo with the round Earth theory), for which he was punished.