Moogle Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) While doing a small re-read of TWoK, I noticed that in Dalinar's vision it is mentioned that nine out of ten people are dead. This seems very specific. Like, 16% of people falling to Mist-sickness specific. Ten is a special number. In Dalinar's vision, we see the Almighty talk more about the Desolations: “The Knights Radiant,” the Almighty said, standing up beside Dalinar, watching the knight attack the nightmare beast. “They were a solution, a way to offset the destruction of the Desolations. Ten orders of knights, founded with the purpose of helping men fight, then rebuild.” ... "...Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you." It is important to note something special about power imbalances: if your army is twice the size of the other army, and you fight them and win, you aren't going to lose half your men, you're going to lose 1/4 of your men. (Well, not really, there's other factors but the idea is there.) If you're fighting to the extent that when you win, you're down 9/10 people, then you had to have been close to equally matched with your enemy. Why would Odium hold back? Why attack multiple times with a force that is, at best, equal to your enemy? I suspect this has something to do with the Oathpact and rules binding Odium. Honor made things 'fair' when Odium attacked. As to the quote, something I find interesting is the quote that Odium "will take that chance [of appointing a champion] instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often". The foremost is the suggestion that Odium has won before. I get a Wheel of Time vibe here. I think that if Odium selects a champion, he can't "win" when he wins. If he selects a champion, Honor selects a champion, and whichever champion wins gets power over the other champion. Odium usually wins this way, so he gets the Heralds to torture until the next Desolation. (The problem with this is that the Heralds seem to always have to go to Damnation.) The question is what happens if Odium loses. Apparently he's lost without selecting a champion before, but it hasn't permanently harmed him. I think this means that Honor gets power over Odium and can torture him for a few millennia, or force him to help Roshar or something. It has to be something Odium doesn't want to happen again if Honor thinks he'll select a champion. Or it could be something like a "best out of a thousand" chess tournament match. As a further rule, if Odium selects a champion, I suspect Odium is only allowed to kill 9/10 people, and then the Desolation is over and Odium has to wait a minimum of a hundred years or so to do another Desolation. Honor seemed to take it as a given that every single Desolation would result in horrible casualties, but he didn't seem too worried about humanity losing if they get Odium to appoint a champion. The question is what happens if Odium doesn't select a champion, and then he wins. Is he allowed to do whatever he wants to Roshar? This seems to be my reading of it, based on Honor's fears about the entirety of Roshar being turned to dust. Apparently he can't do this if he selects a champion? My thoughts are disorganized in this post, but I'm interested in hearing other theories discussing the rules by which Odium is bound in his Desolations. Does anyone have any theories? Edited February 3, 2014 by Moogle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Darn it moogle I was just putting together some similar musings of my own on those quotes but you beat me to the posting. Guess I'll just post here rather than start a new topic. It would have been entitled "An Easy Guide to Being Less Odious". I was re-reading some of the excerpts the other day and when reading the following statement by Tanavast... Vex Odium, convince him that he can lose, and appoint a champion. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often. This is the best advice I can give you.” ... I saw the statement in a new light and had some ideas on defeating Odium. I had assumed from previous reads that Odium usually appoints a champion, similar to how the Dragon and Moridin scenario went in WoT. It sounds instead like Odium hasn’t ever chosen a champion in the past. That is why he always loses. While being vastly powerful, the shards can’t directly interfere too much on a planet where other shards are present (as evidenced by Vin and Ruin’s interactions). The only way to play a direct role is to infuse some power into a proxy who is fully in the physical realm. Honor chose to create the Heralds with Jezrian being the official “champion” and got the bonus of the spren creating the radiants. This allowed Honor to always win the bouts. The downside was that when the Heralds gave up and broke the bond, they splintered some of Honor’s power and weakened him enough for Odium to have the upper hand and ultimately kill him. Odium feared the same thing happening to him in the past if he chose a champion but now, with Honor out of the way and being desperate to finally win the desolation, he might choose one. Dalinar’s goal then is to rally Honor’s “unintended” champions, the radiants, and make Odium desperate enough to send part of his power into a physical being as well. Somehow sever that champion from Odium and his power might be diminished enough for Cultivation, along with some help from Honor’s splinters, to finally defeat/imprison/banish him permanently. Thoughts? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 Darn it moogle I was just putting together some similar musings of my own on those quotes but you beat me to the posting. Guess I'll just post here rather than start a new topic. It would have been entitled "An Easy Guide to Being Less Odious".... How to Lose Friends and Still Influence People Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 (edited) Darn it moogle I was just putting together some similar musings of my own on those quotes but you beat me to the posting. Guess I'll just post here rather than start a new topic. It would have been entitled "An Easy Guide to Being Less Odious". I really need to work on my thread titles. I had assumed from previous reads that Odium usually appoints a champion, similar to how the Dragon and Moridin scenario went in WoT. It sounds instead like Odium hasn’t ever chosen a champion in the past. That is why he always loses. I'm not so sure on this. I'm thinking here of the Ten Unmade, who seem to mirror the Heralds. We know they existed because Nohadon mentioned that one killed all of his wordsmen. I think they've been used as Odium's champions before. I see Honor's tactics as delay-tactics ultimately. He seemed to have no idea how to actually stop the Desolations, just minimize the damage they caused. He made Odium afraid enough of losing that Odium started designating champions to deal with the consequences of loss. While being vastly powerful, the shards can’t directly interfere too much on a planet where other shards are present (as evidenced by Vin and Ruin’s interactions). The only way to play a direct role is to infuse some power into a proxy who is fully in the physical realm. Honor chose to create the Heralds with Jezrian being the official “champion” and got the bonus of the spren creating the radiants. This allowed Honor to always win the bouts. The downside was that when the Heralds gave up and broke the bond, they splintered some of Honor’s power and weakened him enough for Odium to have the upper hand and ultimately kill him. I think Preservation and Ruin are a special case. They were opposites, so they naturally opposed each other, to the extent that Preservation would let Ruin do nothing and automatically countered him. I don't think Odium and Honor are similar there. I don't think Odium is necessarily interested in destroying all life (he didn't do anything to Sel except kill the Shards there), so I think he's just not expending the power required to kill people on Roshar so he can use it all against Cultivation. It wouldn't surprise me if Honor required Odium to start up the Desolations just to force Odium to invest himself on the planet and reduce his power enough that he couldn't kill Honor or Cultivation. I think Odium's current plans are to kill Cultivation, then move on to Harmony. I do think you have the right idea with the proxy fighting idea. If the Shards are evenly matched, then the only way to really gain an advantage is through your proxies. I think you're also right that the Heralds giving up the Oathpact ultimately resulted in Honor being Splintered by Odium, though I'm not sure how this works exactly. There's no loss of Investiture by Odium. The theory about Shards being Splintered by causing them to go against their own Intent/paradox them might apply? We don't know how Odium managed to kill Honor when Cultivation was there. Something is fishy about that. Odium feared the same thing happening to him in the past if he chose a champion but now, with Honor out of the way and being desperate to finally win the desolation, he might choose one. Dalinar’s goal then is to rally Honor’s “unintended” champions, the radiants, and make Odium desperate enough to send part of his power into a physical being as well. Somehow sever that champion from Odium and his power might be diminished enough for Cultivation, along with some help from Honor’s splinters, to finally defeat/imprison/banish him permanently.' This is an idea I like. Force Odium to give up some power, then take it from him. It's similar to storing atium in Mistborn, actually. I think you've hit on something important here. Does it work the other way, though? When Odium gets the Heralds, is he effectively denying Honor a part of his power? The Heralds come back, I suppose, but wouldn't that be similar to Odium's champion? Eventually the champion would die, and Odium would get his power back. I think that Honor being Splintered is less than ideal. I don't think the Splinters will work together to defeat Odium. I think Honor will have to be re-formed somehow, perhaps in the second set of five books. There's a prophecy about ten people with Shardblades alight standing in front of a wall of black and red and white, which might be the reforming of Honor? Edited February 3, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodfalcon Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 That's a fun thought with the 9/10 stuff. I would love to make a theory about that, maybe around 1/10 people being able to surgebind and withstand the storm or something like that. Unfortunately I don't want to get to into that, because there is that WoB that magic on Roshar is not genetic. Technically it wouldn't have to be, but I still feel like I know so little about what does influence it that I want to just be lazy and wait for the next book. Cool idea though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomeness Summoned Posted February 3, 2014 Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I had forgotten about the Unmade so that could very well be in reference to previous champions of Odium I don't think the Splinters will work together to defeat Odium. I think Honor will have to be re-formed somehow, perhaps in the second set of five books. There's a prophecy about ten people with Shardblades alight standing in front of a wall of black and red and white, which might be the reforming of Honor? I always thought this vision was describing the Heralds standing against an army of listeners. They are described as white/red or black/red marbled so a large force would fit as a wall of those colors coming at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2014 I always thought this vision was describing the Heralds standing against an army of listeners. They are described as white/red or black/red marbled so a large force would fit as a wall of those colors coming at you. Huh, I actually really like this interpretation. The exact epigraph incidentally is "Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.” Perhaps the white comes from the listeners being in an honor-form, or something that gets them some white markings. Ten new Heralds standing before Odium's collected listener forces, bargaining, perhaps? They aren't fighting in the epigraph, it seems. They're described as standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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