Spren/Sentience

[FellKnight]

Quote from

Objects with almost sentient behavior like nightblood in Warbreaker share important links with the Spren from tWoK. If you understand the spren you will understand a lot about the connection between the books.

This seems like it could be very big if we can figure it out. So what does it mean?

Conejcture: The in the above quote, I am equating "Spren" with "Syl", as she is the only Spren we have yet seen (to our knowledge) that demonstrates "almost sentient" behaviour. I could be off-base here, as Brandon does not say that Nightblood necessarily shares important links only with sentient Spren, but implies that it may be all Spren, but I'm going with this for now.

What we know:

- Nightblood was invested with 1,000 breaths (which we surmise is the Shardic focus or embodiment of Endowment on Nalthis).

- Syl is the link that allows Kaladin to access the powers of Honor. As she becomes closer to sentient, Kaladin gains more and more Surgebinder power.

- Szeth may or may not have a similar focus point to allow him to access his Surgebinding powers (the Oathstone?), however, it is unlikely that this is something Brandon would overlook, so it lends credibility to the idea that Szeth's Oathstone somehow is a Spren.

Some questions:

- Are the Seons similar to the Spren in this way ("almost-sentience")? If so, how do they fit into the big picture? Brandon says that we are close with the idea that the Seons are Splinters of Aona, but did not go so far as to confirm it.

- Did Spren (and Seons) exist prior to the Splintering of their respective Shards?

- If they did not, how did the Surgebinders of the past access their powers?

- Were those powers stronger back then (i.e. do you have stronger powers if you connect to the magic system directly though the Shard's intent(the words of Honor), rather than through a Splinter, similar to the idea of how Lerasium-mistborn were stronger than biological mistborn)?

- Therefore, is Kaladin stronger than Szeth (or would he be if he discovers the remaining vows)?

- What, if anything, would happen to Nightblood if Endowment was Splintered?

I hope that should be enough to start a discussion, but I'm sure I missed many good questions too...

Fell

[Zas678]

Honorspren (like Syl) were around before Honor died (and he may not have shattered- that's just an idea going around). Nohaden talks about them in one of Dalinar's flashbacks.

[CrazyRioter]

We don't have a clue how Szeth comes by his powers, although somebody over at Stormblssed suggested it involves some kind of hemlugy-parallel type thing.

Kaladin is probably able to get more power then Szeth from the stormlight, he definitely got a power boost from the Second Ideal.

As for Nightblood, my gut says Nightblood is already invested and nothing would happen to him if Endowment was killed and Splintered. my gut could be wrong however.

[FellKnight]

Honorspren (like Syl) were around before Honor died (and he may not have shattered- that's just an idea going around). Nohaden talks about them in one of Dalinar's flashbacks.

True, he may not have been Splintered, but that does seem to be Odium's M.O. at the moment. Good catch on the fact that Spren were around back in the day (I've just started my first re-read of tWoK, having now been through the other books, so I hope to catch more stuff on the second time 'round). Then start annoying topics

Fell

[happyman]

Seems to me the Seons should definitely be considered in this context as well. I still don't see the connection, though. I hate flailing around blindly! Makes me wonder why I like Brandon's work so much.

Oh, yeah. He gives good answers!

I would like to add that Brandon's Warbreaker Annotations make it clear that Nightblood really does change and learn more than Vasher admits. Something is very odd about Nightblood, Seons, Spren, etc.

Also, we don't know how many Spren could be sentient in the right environment.

[Elwynn]

I'd also like to point something else out.

When Aona died and the Shaod became the Reod, all seons linked to a possible elantrian lost sentience. It took fixing the Dor and re-establishing/finishing the Shaod to cure them.

Likewise, I think when honor died the spren lost their sentience.

Now, is there something broken? Like with the Dor? And that's preventing them going back to themselves? It's obvious Syl just had to find someone like Kaladin, or possibly explicitely him. But if something is fixed (highstorms?) will all Nahel-bond capable spren regain their sentience?

[FellKnight]

I'd also like to point something else out.

When Aona died and the Shaod became the Reod, all seons linked to a possible elantrian lost sentience. It took fixing the Dor and re-establishing/finishing the Shaod to cure them.

Has it been confirmed that it was the death of Aona that caused the great earthquake/chasm? I was under the impression that Aona's death was not linked with that event directly.

Likewise, I think when honor died the spren lost their sentience.

Now, is there something broken? Like with the Dor? And that's preventing them going back to themselves? It's obvious Syl just had to find someone like Kaladin, or possibly explicitely him. But if something is fixed (highstorms?) will all Nahel-bond capable spren regain their sentience?

An interesting idea if true...

Fell

[Elwynn]

Has it been confirmed that it was the death of Aona that caused the great earthquake/chasm? I was under the impression that Aona's death was not linked with that event directly.

No, it hasn't.

However the whole ordeal: the chasm, aona and skai dying, the reod, can all be attributed (in my mind) to Odium visiting and killing the shardholders of that world.

I base this off of the letter writer in part 2 epigraphs of tWoK

One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say

Bold print mine

Edited June 3, 2011 by Elwynn

[CrazyRioter]

True, he may not have been Splintered, but that does seem to be Odium's M.O. at the moment. Good catch on the fact that Spren were around back in the day (I've just started my first re-read of tWoK, having now been through the other books, so I hope to catch more stuff on the second time 'round). Then start annoying topics

Fell

no such thing as an annoying topic as long as it's legitimately trying to discuss the books.

edit: also, I think I heard that Brandon said that the earthquake that created the Chasm and caused the Reod was a natural event. Although if Aona had been alive she might have been able to stop the earthquake from doing enough damage to the landscape to break AonDor and Elantris. Or at least helped the people fix the problem sooner. So maybe the Reod was indirectly Odium's fault.

Edited June 3, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Zas678]

One thing about Spren- Dalinar doesn't see a single one in any of his visions. Although Nohaden talks about Honorspren, there is no other evidence to show that non-sentinent spren are around before then.

[happyman]

If Seons are aspects of Aona's consciousness or power, like some of us theorize, then Aona being splintered probably happened well before any of the events in Elantris.

[Joe ST]

well the downfall of the first Fjordell Empire might be a good place to look....

[Chachel]

If Seons are splinters of Aona, or aspects of her consciousness or somehow linked to Aona, wouldn't it make sense to have Aona's shard's name be something along the lines of Devotion/Service? Seons are paragons of devotion.

[happyman]

If Seons are splinters of Aona, or aspects of her consciousness or somehow linked to Aona, wouldn't it make sense to have Aona's shard's name be something along the lines of Devotion/Service? Seons are paragons of devotion.

Yes, and this is part of the evidence in favor of Seons being aspects of Aona's consciousness. They seem to be dedicated to a fundamental ideal, just like other shards are. As stated, though, this tends to push Odium's involvement on Sel significantly further into the past. The Reod is then just a natural disaster with really nasty side effects that may have been avoidable if Aona had still been around. Who knows?

[Chaos]

Wow, there's a lot to comment on in this thread.

I think the primary connection between Seons, spren, and Nightblood is how they get their Cognitive aspects. We don't know a lot of Realmatic theory, but it seems to me Syl is taking some of Kaladin's Cognitive power, and she's trading it and giving back some Spiritual power in the form of Surgebinding. Seons could be drawing the Cognitive aspect from their master as well.

The problem with that way of thinking about it is that Nightblood doesn't bond with just one person. In fact, there's no indication he draws his consciousness from any source. He got it all in the front end, with the thousand Breaths. That would be enough Spiritual power that, with a Command (which would act as a sort of Cognitive seed), can bring Nightblood to sentience. It's interesting that Brandon calls Nightblood "almost-sentient." I'd imagine that means he is "pretty close to sentience but still is an imitation of it."

So okay, let's skip the whole issue of where they get their Cognitive power, because the mechanics of that seems to differ between books. Syl's consciousness, I think, comes from the Nahel bond. Nightblood's comes from the Breaths plus a Command. Seons come through mysterious processes that we don't yet understand.

I would note that the one indication of Splintering that we have doesn't deal with the consciousness of a Shardholder, merely the Shard's Spiritual power. The power is what Odium Splintered from Aona. So I don't think it is accurate to say that Seons are "aspects of Aona's consciousness." That consciousness died. Its the power that is being split, and Seons could be those Splinters of Aona.

(Part of the problem is that I would love to say "They are Splinters of Endowment" or some Shard name, but we don't know Aona's Shard, so we're using some imprecise language)

Of course, they aren't just Splinters of Aona. Splinters are like Divine Breath, they are not sentient in their own right. There needs to be something else to give them that Cognitive power. This could be how Seons are "created." You grab those Splinters, and then give them an Aon to focus their consciousness. Or something.

Now, Seons are certainly of Aona, so their Devotion/service aspect makes sense. They are Splinters of that Shard, and that Shard had a specific Intent which colors the way Seons act. That is very similar to the way Syl operates. I'd need to read Way of Kings again to see if Syl does, in fact, act like some fragment of Honor or something.

However, that also has a problem, because it seems Honorspren aren't necessarily Splinters of Honor. That largely depends on when Honor died, so they could be Splinters, but we also need to be open to the idea that they aren't. The only Splinter we know of are the Divine Breath. Nightblood is a lot of interesting things, but I don't think those thousand Breaths he is Invested with makes him a Splinter. He's a different thing.

Brandon's comments could simply refer to how things gain sentience rather than any information about Splinters.

About the Reod thing -- I’m with CrazyRioter on this one. I could have sworn that Brandon said the Reod was just an earthquake. I guess you could blame it on Odium on killing the Shardholders, but that’s like saying that everything can be blamed on Adonalsium Shattering. Technically, it’s true, though it isn’t immensely illuminative.