A Thought About Feruchemy

[Chaos]

I was talking with my friend Jeremy (he's TimeMaster11 on here) about what magics on Roshar are of which Shards. Is Surgebinding just of Honor, or a mix of Cultivation? It was interesting to think about, though there are no easy answers, since we don't know much.

But it made me think about Feruchemy, and how it was the balance of Ruin and Preservation. I recall a topic on TWG where happyman was deciphering the "30 magic systems" of WoK, and he basically used some math to find all possible combinations of Shards to get you to 30.

Well, we know this way of thinking isn't right. There are just three Shards on Roshar. I think it's likely that the "30" magics are the smaller magic systems. There are, after all, ten Surges in Surgebinding. I wouldn't be surprised if other magics, like Voidbinding, have ten powers as well. That is what the back cover seems to convey.

Anyways, it doesn't matter how you count them; that's not what my thought is. I was thinking more about, if Surgebinding is of Honor, and two other magics of Odium and Cultivation, respectively, why aren't there more magic systems? Feruchemy is a balance of Ruin and Preservation, shouldn't there be combinations of these Shards too? Just going through combinations of it:

Honor

Cultivation

Odium

Honor-Odium

Honor-Cultivation

Odium-Cultivation

Honor-Odium-Cultivation

So that's seven theoretical magic systems... We definitely don't see that many (by magic systems, I'm referring to big things like Surgebinding, not individual Surges, just like I count there to be three magics in Mistborn: Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy, not 3*16 of them). That possibly suggests that not all Shards can interact to form a new magic system. Why would this be?

Well, I think we forget sometimes that Ruin and Preservation are a special combination. They are perfect opposites, and that particular interaction lent a "balance" very easily. Not all Shards have opposites like this. Endowment doesn't. Perhaps it isn't just the mixing of two Shards' power that grants a third magic system, but the mixing of two compatible Shards. If you stuck Preservation and Endowment on a world, would they necessarily create a third magic system from that interaction? I don't think so. The Shard Intents don't seem to mesh well enough to form a particular magic.

That's all I really had for you guys today, but I can't resist mentioning a possible categorization method for Shards. Kerry and I were talking about this a while back, so give her plenty of credit for this scheme, too.

Let's first assume the Shards split into four quadrants, similar to Allomancy. Since there are sixteen Shards, this is certainly a possible orientation. There are three divisions we currently noticed (so we don't have any idea what the last quadrant would be). Ruin and Preservation feel very elemental, dealing with physical things. Endowment and Cultivation, while maybe not necessarily paired, feel quite like Enhancement Shards. In one quadrant we thought was filled, we have more mental, emotional powers, because they seem to deal not with growth or direct change, but with human feelings: Honor, Odium (hating things is certainly an emotion!), and whatever Aona and Skai are. When my theory of Love and Devotion was around, that made the quadrant extremely "emotional," but now we're figuring it is more like Devotion for Aona and possibly Unity for Skai. Either way, they are much more similar to Honor than Preservation, in that like Honor, it deals with a human, cognitive characteristic.

I liked the names Elemental, Emotional, and Enhancement (because I thought it was cool to have three E's) and Kerry preferred Physical, Mental, and Enhancement for those three categories. I have to agree with Kerry, there, because it feels more like Allomantic categorization, which is a cool symmetry. (Although we're both baffled with what a "temporal" Shard could be, so take this all for a grain of salt)

So a possible categorization could be something like this, down below. Mind you, we have no idea if there is an "external" or "internal" dynamic to this table. If you want, just look at the Table of Allomantic Metals and imagine we are dealing with Shards instead of metals, and disregard which Shards are on the outer ring or inner ring.

Physical:

Ruin, Preservation (definitely paired)

Unknown, Unknown

Mental:

Honor, Odium

Aona--probably named Devotion, Skai--potential name of Unity, maybe.

Third Quadrant, all unknown.

Enhancement:

Endowment, Cultivation

Unknown, Unknown.

A couple of notes: 1. Endowment and Cultivation certainly don't need to be paired, and 2. Kerry also thought Honor-Aona and Odium-Skai seemed like a more natural pairing. Take your pick.

I didn't really have much of a point in sharing this, except that it may not be necessary for all combinations of Shards to form a new magic. Perhaps paired Shards can, but Brandon has said that not all Shards have an opposite like Ruin and Preservation do.

A long, rambly post aside, I think I made my point: Ruin and Preservation's interaction is special among Shards, and we shouldn't create generalizations about additional magic systems because Feruchemy exists.

[SOM1else]

I really like this theory. I think I am going to espouse it. I'm pretty sure you right about Honor and Odium being paired rather than an Odium-Skai pairing, Odium is the opposite of Honor just like Ruin is the opposite of Preservation. Like I've said before I am 100% sure that Odium is not synonymous with Hate when refering to a Shard but instead refers more to this deffinition

the reproach, discredit, or opprobrium attaching to something hated or repugnant:

the second deffinition makes more sense for it to be paired with Honor because that definition makes Odium a synonym of Dishonor.

[Chaos]

I really like this theory. I think I am going to espouse it. I'm pretty sure you right about Honor and Odium being paired rather than an Odium-Skai pairing, Odium is the opposite of Honor just like Ruin is the opposite of Preservation. Like I've said before I am 100% sure that Odium is not synonymous with Hate when refering to a Shard but instead refers more to this deffinition the second deffinition makes more sense for it to be paired with Honor because that definition makes Odium a synonym of Dishonor.

That's my thought as well. However, what makes me second guess that a little is the fact that if they are paired, shouldn't this theory predict an Honor-Odium magic system?

[Joe ST]

On a slight tangent, based on Feruchemy, I'd say that joint-Shard magics are quite a bit of effort to the Shards involved, compared to their single-Shard-powered counterparts. This is possibly due to their lack of similarities (in that they are opposites). Maybe the effort is lessened by having a common focus, or something. But it does seem to be that whereas the single-Shard magic is split up (Allomancy has 16 (+special 'god' metals) mistings and the x16 mistborn one, which is probably just a combination of all 16(+) sDNA's), Feruchemy (as the only example of a cooperative venture) only has one type of sDNA (unless Feruchemical mistings have been confirmed, then you can throw me out by the ear).

The shard table is interesting, though possibly flawed in that the last quadrant being temporal doesn't stop the other shards from being able to see the future? I dunno, it's a nice thought. But 10 is obviously a much more important number on Roshar.

[Zas678]

That hasn't happened yet, but it will by AoL. That's where we get Twinborns from.

[Chaos]

Oh, duh, Joe, that makes this way easier. For there to be a "mixed" magic system, Shards must share a focus.

That was easy.

Though I guess we'll have to see how the magics in Stormlight Archive work to be more precise about this.

[Joe ST]

Ahhh, there goes my 'theory' then. Unless its a by-product of time, or Sazed's merger/meddling. If he has 'merged' the Shards somehow, then it'd be easier to justify the splitting of sDNA just as the other Shards seem to have split naturally into a set of powers. Maybe that's what you get when you shatter a Shard, a set of 'natural' powers.

Back to the Shard-table, being that each Shard is part of the whole of Adonalsium, maybe each Shard isn't wholly in one part of the table (explaining their temporal-like abilities to read the future).

So Adonalsium shatters into 16 pieces, each 'different' in some way to the others; some (like Ruin/Preservation) are polar opposites, others kinda not so much (Devotion and Unity? Cultivation) It seems quite arbitrary, so it's either 'natural' in that it split in any old way, or its 'unnatural' in that it didnt split into things that dont polarize well. Like, this thing was GOD, which by my definition would mean he was EVERYTHING, but where's Apathy/Carefree/Null&Void, where are the guys that are not extreme. Maybe that absence nulls my No Polarized Shards proposition, since they are all extreme.

Hmmm, I've run out now... *get's his coat*

[Comatose]

Ahhh, there goes my 'theory' then. Unless its a by-product of time, or Sazed's merger/meddling. If he has 'merged' the Shards somehow, then it'd be easier to justify the splitting of sDNA just as the other Shards seem to have split naturally into a set of powers. Maybe that's what you get when you shatter a Shard, a set of 'natural' powers.

Back to the Shard-table, being that each Shard is part of the whole of Adonalsium, maybe each Shard isn't wholly in one part of the table (explaining their temporal-like abilities to read the future).

So Adonalsium shatters into 16 pieces, each 'different' in some way to the others; some (like Ruin/Preservation) are polar opposites, others kinda not so much (Devotion and Unity? Cultivation) It seems quite arbitrary, so it's either 'natural' in that it split in any old way, or its 'unnatural' in that it didnt split into things that dont polarize well. Like, this thing was GOD, which by my definition would mean he was EVERYTHING, but where's Apathy/Carefree/Null&Void, where are the guys that are not extreme. Maybe that absence nulls my No Polarized Shards proposition, since they are all extreme.

Hmmm, I've run out now... *get's his coat*

This discussion of why Feruchemy splits interests me. Originally, I just assumed: of course it is splitting, it's been 300 years or whatever. But this makes me think. The final empire has lasted 1000 years, and Allomancy has split up enough that full mistborn are rare. All Feruchemists, however, have all the powers. And yet, the noble population will have been actively breeding allomancers, in the hopes of strengthening their houses, while the Terris people have been in a strict breeding program. Also, all present day Feruchemists were the result of recessive Feruchemy in the Terris population, since the original Feruchemists were all changed into Mistwraiths and Kandra. My question is this then: If Allomancy is newer than Feruchemy, and the nobles have better conditions to pass down their powers in, why did allomancy break down faster, and why did Feruchemy only begin to break down after Sazed took control of both shards, and the Terris blood began to mix with other races? I have to get ready for work now, but I'm interested to see where this topic goes.

[Chaos]

I asked Brandon (via Mi'ch) once what the origin of Feruchemy was. He didn't seem to understand what I was saying, but he said that Terrismen typically kept the genes in their own population. So typically, they mated with other Terrispeople (he apparently compared it to Jews, who despite the diaspora, kept fairly insular). Hence, the power of Feruchemy never had room to split.

I guess it splits once the Terrispeople start breeding outside of that ethnicity.

[SOM1else]

I wonder if the feruchemical powers were granted to the first humans of scadrial. back when ruin and preservation would have been experimenting with their powers creating life before humanity had more preservation then ruin. these humans would have the spiritual and physical makeups to use ferichemy, but until they got more preservation than ruin they didn't have the cognitive ability to use it.

Oh and I wrote up a big post about the magic we have seen on roshar and what shards they connect to during school today but I wasnt able to post it. I have it saved to my student drive so on monday I'll upload it

[Quantum Toast]

Let's first assume the Shards split into four quadrants, similar to Allomancy. Since there are sixteen Shards, this is certainly a possible orientation. There are three divisions we currently noticed (so we don't have any idea what the last quadrant would be). Ruin and Preservation feel very elemental, dealing with physical things. Endowment and Cultivation, while maybe not necessarily paired, feel quite like Enhancement Shards. In one quadrant we thought was filled, we have more mental, emotional powers, because they seem to deal not with growth or direct change, but with human feelings: Honor, Odium (hating things is certainly an emotion!), and whatever Aona and Skai are. When my theory of Love and Devotion was around, that made the quadrant extremely "emotional," but now we're figuring it is more like Devotion for Aona and possibly Unity for Skai. Either way, they are much more similar to Honor than Preservation, in that like Honor, it deals with a human, cognitive characteristic.

I liked the names Elemental, Emotional, and Enhancement (because I thought it was cool to have three E's) and Kerry preferred Physical, Mental, and Enhancement for those three categories. I have to agree with Kerry, there, because it feels more like Allomantic categorization, which is a cool symmetry. (Although we're both baffled with what a "temporal" Shard could be, so take this all for a grain of salt)

This brings the Physical/Cognitive/Spiritual thing to mind for me, though I suppose if there were only three Shard categories that'd mean they wouldn't be divided evenly.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I'd say that it does split into a Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual, but with an unknown fourth part. Perhaps Adonalsium's power outside or in between the three Realms?

[Zas678]

I don't think so. Brandon, who understands more than Sazed does, has stated many time about the Three Realms. Not the four.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I did not say anything about a fourth realm, I said the fourth quadrant of the 16 Shards. Four for Physical, four for Spiritual, four for Cognitive, and four for something else.

[Zas678]

Ah. That makes more sense.

[Truthless]

And four for FAMILY .

[SOM1else]

And four for FAMILY .

Maybe a fourth group of shards who are kinda' a bit of all the others?

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Maybe a fourth group of shards who are kinda' a bit of all the others?

That's pretty much my thinking. This could be Chaos' "Enhancement" quadrant if it means influencing other Shards.

[FellKnight]

Maybe a fourth group of shards who are kinda' a bit of all the others?

Or how about a Destruction/Entropy quadrant? (Physical-Mental are opposites in a way, so too would be Enhancement and Entropy) sidebar: Entropy would be an awesome Shard name, if it wasn't basically what Ruin did.

So if we had four quadrants with the fourth being Destruction/Entropy, we then have to ask if Ruin really belong in the Physical quadrant (I would say no), and therefore if any Shard-pairings would have to come from opposing quadrants, not from the same quadrant.

Therefore, we could have Odium and maybe Bavadin('s Shard) in the Destruction quadrant. I'm liking this more and more as I write it!

Fell

p.s. Hello 17th Shard! I have enjoyed lurking for awhile now

Edited May 6, 2011 by FellKnight

[Comatose]

If Ruin is a destruction based shard, I think Preservation would be an enhancement shard, which, I think, makes sense. Cultivation and Preservation are similar in that both interact with things (one to cultivate or encourage, one to preserve) in positive ways, but neither would create or destroy. Thus the four quadrants would be physical, mental, enhancement, and destruction? I could live with those. The only problem I see is defining what goes where. What is the difference between a physical shard and an enhancement or destruction shard? The mental elements, I think, are more easily defined, but the areas between physical and the two others seem a little grey.

[SOM1else]

Assuming this table is like allomancy except temporal is a wildcard section, then entropy would be in the enhancment section. Aluminum and whatever the othe metal is don't enhance metals they destroy them.

[Chaos]

Maybe a fourth group of shards who are kinda' a bit of all the others?

Huh, I don't know about that. The way I envision in it my mind, the Shards are each a fragment of creation. Their Intents are sixteen different aspects of creation. I would doubt that there are Shards which are kind of mixtures. Shards are fundamental, as far as I know.

That's pretty much my thinking. This could be Chaos' "Enhancement" quadrant if it means influencing other Shards.

Or how about a Destruction/Entropy quadrant? (Physical-Mental are opposites in a way, so too would be Enhancement and Entropy) sidebar: Entropy would be an awesome Shard name, if it wasn't basically what Ruin did.

So if we had four quadrants with the fourth being Destruction/Entropy, we then have to ask if Ruin really belong in the Physical quadrant (I would say no), and therefore if any Shard-pairings would have to come from opposing quadrants, not from the same quadrant.

Therefore, we could have Odium and maybe Bavadin('s Shard) in the Destruction quadrant. I'm liking this more and more as I write it!

Fell

p.s. Hello 17th Shard! I have enjoyed lurking for awhile now

Hi Fell!

I suppose it is possible. The existence of such a quadrant would largely depend on where Ruin lies. So, here's some food for thought: if Ruin and Preservation are in separate quadrants, what made them such great opposites that those two had to be together? Meaning, why couldn't Ruin balance another Shard in the quadrant Preservation is in?

The way I see it, there is a deeper significance to Ruin and Preservation's pairing, and I think a model which inherently pairs them from the beginning explains that significance much better than "well, they are in separate quadrants but there was something else which drew them together." Might as well reduce a degree of freedom.

(Plus, Preservation does not seem to enhance things. I suppose you could argue that Allomancy enhances an Allomancer, but that's bad logic, because pretty much any magic enhances its users )

The way I read it, Ruin is Entropy, and an Entropy Shard wouldn't be distinct enough to work.

[Joe ST]

The way I read it, Ruin is Entropy, and an Entropy Shard wouldn't be distinct enough to work.

I dunno, entropy is chaos rather than destruction. Entropy is not inherently good or bad, like Ruin/Odium. I just don't know...

[Chaos]

I dunno, entropy is chaos rather than destruction. Entropy is not inherently good or bad, like Ruin/Odium. I just don't know...

So, I did some research on this in MB3, and I have come to the conclusion that, given that Entropy is synonymous with Chaos, it cannot be a Shard.

It is too easy for people to characterize Ruin as simply a force of destruction. Think rather of Ruin as intelligent decay. Not simply chaos, but a force that sought in a rational—and dangerous—way to break everything down to its most basic forms.

It had a need to destroy, yet it was not a force of simple chaos. It didn't act randomly. It planned and thought. And, it didn't seem able to do anything it wanted. Almost as if it followed specific rules...

The key is that Ruin doesn't act randomly. This is because a consciousness controls it. I think an Entropy Shard could not operate on this level. How do you "plan" disorder? And certainly, a consciousness is a key component to a Shard.

[Joe ST]

Yeah I agree, entropy does not a shard make. But for the same reasons as you quoted, Ruin is not entropic merely ruinous...yeah lol.