Storm-light might not be the only source of energy

[Arook]

Sorry if this is a little confusing. 

 

To start, I want to make a distinction for this topic: Storm-light only equals spiritual energy gain from exposure to storms.

 

Lift interlude spoiler

I got to thinking this morning in the lift interlude we see surge binding without the use of storm-light. Lift is able to convert physical energy directly into spiritual energy for use in her surges. Now from Wendal we know lift's ability is unusual and was given to her. 

 

What if the storms are not the original source of spiritual energy for The Radiants, or at least not the only source?

 

Urithiru is apparently located closest to honor and west of Alethkar

 

Origin is to the east of Roshar 

 

Storms are a build up of spiritual energy some place off the coast of Roshar that explodes out on a weekly basis. I feel storms consist of 2 waves.The first is the storm wall the physical wave of matter blown out of the origin. The second is a wave of spiritual energy trailing the first. This wave temporarily folds the physical realm into the spiritual during this time the gems exposed to the second wave fill with storm-light. During Kaladin's time in the storm he hits a spot in the storm where all his pain is gone and he sees a massive inhuman face in total darkness. After he sees the face, his one sphere burst to life.

 

I think that dark face belongs to odium, and it's also what started the belief that Jezrien rides the storm.

 

All spiritual energy is essentially the same and each shard can choose to power any magic system is my understanding. If I remember correctly,  Ruin could have powered Allomancy if he wanted to. Roshar is different than the other shard worlds, Sel being the closest. Roshar has such large amounts of loose spiritual energy compared to the others, on Sel the loose energy appears to be confined to the cognitive and spiritual realm. Most other systems have some special access (breath, metal, pattern, whatever the hell Hoid does). Storm-light appears to be pure Spiritual energy

 

I wonder if honor had a different way of providing spiritual energy to his followers and, maybe that source is why Urithiru could not be in Alethkar. Placing the oath gates near that power source would make sense.

 

[Kurkistan]

Interesting theory.

[Isomere]

I think honor used sound waves to power his magic system.

[Aether]

Um, what? Why?

[Arook]

I think honor used sound waves to power his magic system.

Is this a gut feeling or do you have some reason to think that? I am very intreasted to hear your reasoning

Edited January 11, 2014 by Arook

[Vortaan]

I thought we had WoB that Odium isn't actually on Roshar right now, just in the system. I'd buy the face being more Cultivation or maybe one of the Unmade/Ten Fools, though. 

[Bean]

Yeah he is on a different planet in the Roshar system named Braize. 

 

 

All spiritual energy is essentially the same and each shard can choose to power any magic system is my understanding. If I remember correctly,  Ruin could have powered Allomancy if he wanted to.

 

Yes ruin could. However they are somehow different. We know that ruin is more effective at powering Hemalurgic powers and preservation at allomantic. So they are similar but not the same. I think it has been stated that any shard could power any others magic system.

 

Are you theorizing that Honor was directly powering the radiants?

 

Lift interlude spoiler

We do see lift metabolizing spiritual power from food, but wyndel is pretty confused by that. I read that as he thought that using stormlight was the only way to power surge binding.

 

 

But if the high storms are a result of the shattering then you are right there must be an alternative. maybe they had a big stormlight battery.

[Aether]

But if the high storms are a result of the shattering then you are right there must be an alternative. maybe they had a big stormlight battery.

This idea has been proposed before, and while it might be that they increased somewhat in power after the shattering, I find it more or less impossible that they were caused by it. Remember that Roshar's Fauna and Flora are all completely dominated by it. It is a harsh environment, and they have had to adapt in strange and unusual ways just to survive. The Prelude is placed 4'500 years before the rest of the book. The Recreance possibly around 2'000 years after that. The Rosharan life forms cannot possibly have developed in only around 2'500 years.

[Oudeis]

The Rosharan life forms cannot possibly have developed in only around 2'500 years.

 

...unless there was an extant deity whose Intent was to help things grow in a way that would best allow them to adapt to their current environment.

[Aether]

...unless there was an extant deity whose Intent was to help things grow in a way that would best allow them to adapt to their current environment.

I considered including a line about that, but I didn't think it necessary. I think such a massive shift in the ecology of Roshar would be noted, even with the lack of trustworthy historical documents that modern Roshar seems to have. Plus, by this point, Dalinar has experienced several visions in several different epochs, and I think he would have noticed if the Rosharan life forms were any different back then. Especially in the Feverstone vision, the landscape looks just as barren as ever.

 

EDIT: While writing this post, I remember that Dalinar noticed the poor quality of the buildings in the "Starfalls" vision, which would not have been possible with Highstorms to mow them down with every passing. I went back and checked, however, and there is this line to justify how they could have been standing, even with Highstorms that far back:

 

He burst out in the violet moonlight. He was in a small lait - a wide rift in the stone with good enough drainage to avoid flooding and a high stone outcropping to break the Highstorms.

- Chapter 19, page 297 of the Way of Kings hard-cover.

It should also be noted that cities likely well over two thousand years old have been built to either completely avoid or break away the effects of a Highstorm, such as Kholinar (which has been proven to exist way ofer 4'500 years ago), Kharabrant and Sesemelex Dar.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Aether

[Oudeis]

Someone remind me of all of the visions...

 

We've got the one with the midnight essences where he points out that it's too dark to see anything, like spren.

 

We've got Feverstone Keep, which is set on a barren plain. Keep in mind Roshar isn't necessarily barren, the grass just hides from people. Even without highstorms, they would still be barren places.

 

We've got the Kholinar one with Nohadon, set in the middle of a city with dead monsters and humans filling the streets. Not really a ton of rockbuds he might have seen.

 

Spoiler for WoR Readings:

The Purelake's surface would look the same, whether Highstorms exist or not.

 

I admit, I haven't memorized every vision he's had. Am I missing any? Or, can anyone go to one of the visions and point out to me any time he sees one single thing that is adapted to the Highstorms? The best we've got is, that city from the first vision is built on the leeward side of a rock, which I admit is some evidence for the other side. But not enough, I think, to disprove this idea.

[Aether]

I admit, I haven't memorized every vision he's had. Am I missing any? Or, can anyone go to one of the visions and point out to me any time he sees one single thing that is adapted to the Highstorms? The best we've got is, that city from the first vision is built on the leeward side of a rock, which I admit is some evidence for the other side. But not enough, I think, to disprove this idea.

Read my edits to my latest post. I haven't bothered to check, but I do think Dalinar remarked upon the structure of Feverstone as well, and how it survived Highstorms, or something. I can check if you'd like.

[Oudeis]

It should also be noted that cities likely well over two thousand years old have been built to either completely avoid or break away the effects of a Highstorm, such as Kholinar (which has been proven to exist way ofer 4'500 years ago), Kharabrant and Sesemelex Dar.

 

Kholinar was built to fit the rock formation, and possibly to protect against the more-frequent monster attacks of Desolations. Its storm-breaking potential might be a side-effect.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Darnam

[Aether]

And what of Kharbranth? Of Sesemelex Dar? Of the High stone outcropping from the "Starfalls" vision? Are those too the result of side-effects?

 

One time might have been a side-effect, but we've been shown several examples of structures built with protection against Highstorms in prehistoric Roshar. There is a pattern that seems increasingly unlikely to be one of coincidence. There is also the line from Kaladin's out-of-body experience of "no one rides the Storms anymore", which more or less proves that there were at least something similar to today's Highstorms back then.

 

There are signs that the Storms might have been less frequent in prehistoric Roshar. Perusing the "Highway to the Sun" chapter, I found this quote:

"Storming weather," the man muttered. "How long's it going to last? Been eight weeks already."
Eight weeks? Forty days of winter at once? That was rare.

- From chapter 52, page 725 of the Way of Kings Tor hard-cover.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Aether

[Arook]

If Roshar is one of 2 medium size contients its possible that life there was created there to survive massive hurricanes and now that there are the high storm normal weather is gone and replaced them and the plant and animal life just continued. But i think that the high storms have been around during the epochs. Dalinar comments that the house is next to a large rock out cropping or something to protect to from the storm wall

[Oudeis]

And what of Kharbranth? Of Sesemelex Dar? Of the High stone outcropping from the "Starfalls" vision? Are those too the result of side-effects?

 

We don't know that Kharbranth or Sesemelex Dar are any older than 2 thousand years, do we? So, we've got one city built inside a massive, natural wall, two cities which could be recent adaptations to the Highstorms, and one city, so far in the past they don't even know how to mine, with flimsy buildings that happens to be next to a rock. I don't think we're stretching coincidence yet.

I realize there are holes in my theory, I realize we don't know everything yet. But I don't think you've got very much more evidence to support your theory than I've got to support mine. I don't expect to convince you I'm right, just that that you can't prove I'm wrong. I'm gonna keep believing this until you can prove to me that it isn't true, and if I turn out to be wrong, you are welcome to one hearty "I told you so."

[Aether]

"Sesemalex Dar," Sigzil said, nodding, pulling off another boot. "Yes, it is the capital of the kingdom of Emul, and is one of the most ancient cities in the world. It is said that the city - and, indeed, the kingdom - were named by Jezrien himself."

- From chapter 55, page 168 of the Way of Kings Tor hard-cover edition.

I'd like to note that the Bells of Khararbranth are said to have been used to warn of Highstorms in ancient times. While hardly conclusive, I do not think they'd have such a legend associated with them if it was a recent construction. Also, the main shaft of the Palanaeum is said to have been made by the Dawnsingers, further indication of Kharbranth's age.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Aether

[Oudeis]

I'd like to note that the Bells of Khararbranth are said to have been used to warn of Highstorms in ancient times. While hardly conclusive, I do not think they'd have such a legend associated with them if it was a recent construction. Also, the main shaft of the Palanaeum is said to have been made by the Dawnsingers, further indication of Kharbranth's age.

 

Both valid points, then. I take them under consideration, and admit that they are evidence of flaws in my theory.

[Aether]

Both valid points, then. I take them under consideration, and admit that they are evidence of flaws in my theory.

As in mine. That comment about the winter weather still bugs me. Something was different back then, I just do not think a complete reversal of Roshar's ecology is necessary to accommodate it. +1

Edited January 13, 2014 by Aether

[Isomere]

Is this a gut feeling or do you have some reason to think that? I am very intreasted to hear your reasoning

My thoughts on sound as the focus of Roshar come from this thread: The Focus on Roshar Basically, I'm suggesting that stormlight (like the mists of Scadrial) allows us to bypass the focus similar to how Elend used Allomancy with no metals to burn.

There is good evidence that sound has been used as a focus for magics on Roshar. Consider the dawnsingers, Dawnchant, the Dawncities, the Vanrial, the Parshendi song, the Eternal Words, etc. There is evidence that soulcasting creates an associated sound, but unless the casting is very dramatic the sound is not audible. One example where the sound did occur is when Jasnah removes the stone debris for Taravangian. “And then, briefly, Shallan heard a sound. A low thrumming, like a distant group of voices, humming together a single, pure note. Jasnah’s hand sank into the rock. The stone vanished.” (From chapter 5). Humming can also make it easier to Soulcast (Ch 42). Other examples of sound include the heartbeat for summoning a shardblade, the verbal request for a boon from the Old Magic, and the rhythm of battle with the thrill. Shallan's drawings also apparently uses rhythm, and have ties to cultivation and soul-sprouts: “When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page. Charcoal for sinew, paper pulp for bone, ink for blood, the paper’s texture for skin. She fell into a rhythm, a cadence, the scratching of her pencil like the sound of breathing from those she depicted.”(from Chapter 7)

[Swimmingly]

My thoughts on sound as the focus of Roshar come from this thread: The Focus on Roshar Basically, I'm suggesting that stormlight (like the mists of Scadrial) allows us to bypass the focus similar to how Elend used Allomancy with no metals to burn.

There is good evidence that sound has been used as a focus for magics on Roshar. Consider the dawnsingers, Dawnchant, the Dawncities, the Vanrial, the Parshendi song, the Eternal Words, etc. There is evidence that soulcasting creates an associated sound, but unless the casting is very dramatic the sound is not audible. One example where the sound did occur is when Jasnah removes the stone debris for Taravangian. “And then, briefly, Shallan heard a sound. A low thrumming, like a distant group of voices, humming together a single, pure note. Jasnah’s hand sank into the rock. The stone vanished.” (From chapter 5). Humming can also make it easier to Soulcast (Ch 42). Other examples of sound include the heartbeat for summoning a shardblade, the verbal request for a boon from the Old Magic, and the rhythm of battle with the thrill. Shallan's drawings also apparently uses rhythm, and have ties to cultivation and soul-sprouts: “When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page. Charcoal for sinew, paper pulp for bone, ink for blood, the paper’s texture for skin. She fell into a rhythm, a cadence, the scratching of her pencil like the sound of breathing from those she depicted.”(from Chapter 7)

I think that this is more of an analogy, probably informed by Brandon's own experiences as a writer. Though the "snipping free a bud of their soul" is quite ominous, if not outright unnerving. Foreshadowing much?

[Oudeis]

Is Gavilar's sphere an example of Stormdark?

[Vortaan]

My thoughts on sound as the focus of Roshar come from this thread: The Focus on Roshar Basically, I'm suggesting that stormlight (like the mists of Scadrial) allows us to bypass the focus similar to how Elend used Allomancy with no metals to burn.

There is good evidence that sound has been used as a focus for magics on Roshar. Consider the dawnsingers, Dawnchant, the Dawncities, the Vanrial, the Parshendi song, the Eternal Words, etc. There is evidence that soulcasting creates an associated sound, but unless the casting is very dramatic the sound is not audible. One example where the sound did occur is when Jasnah removes the stone debris for Taravangian. “And then, briefly, Shallan heard a sound. A low thrumming, like a distant group of voices, humming together a single, pure note. Jasnah’s hand sank into the rock. The stone vanished.” (From chapter 5). Humming can also make it easier to Soulcast (Ch 42). Other examples of sound include the heartbeat for summoning a shardblade, the verbal request for a boon from the Old Magic, and the rhythm of battle with the thrill. Shallan's drawings also apparently uses rhythm, and have ties to cultivation and soul-sprouts: “When she collected a Memory of a person, she was snipping free a bud of their soul, and she cultivated and grew it on the page. Charcoal for sinew, paper pulp for bone, ink for blood, the paper’s texture for skin. She fell into a rhythm, a cadence, the scratching of her pencil like the sound of breathing from those she depicted.”(from Chapter 7)

 

The majority of the sounds you point out though are words, which have meaning. I'm more incline to think that language, as the most efficient way of conveying Intent, is more important on Roshar than other Shardworlds, rather than just sound. 

 

The hum when Soulcasting may have originated as a way to communicate to the spren that allowed it. As for the rhythm of battle with the Thrill... don't they also make a lot of references to how a battle is extremely chaotic? I'm not sure I'd take that one as anything other than poetic descriptions.

[Musica]

Storms are a build up of spiritual energy some place off the coast of Roshar that explodes out on a weekly basis. I feel storms consist of 2 waves.The first is the storm wall the physical wave of matter blown out of the origin. The second is a wave of spiritual energy trailing the first. This wave temporarily folds the physical realm into the spiritual during this time the gems exposed to the second wave fill with storm-light. 

 

 

 

maybe someone can answer me (if we have ever actually gotten an answer and I missed it), but can every single Highstorm recharge\power an exposed sphere only once? I mean, if I'm holding a sphere out in a Highstorm and, say, am breathing in it's Stormlight until it is empty, would it automatically fill up again? even if I'm constantly draining it?

because if so, it means that during a Highstorm, a Surgebinder has an unlimited suply of power to draw on, if they choose to brave the outside during a Storm, and that would be rather awesome, if scary and dangerous as hell    

 

and about riding the Storms- Kaladin was only Mind-Riding it, right? because for some reason, the way the voice spoke of people no longer riding the winds sounded like more of a physical riding\flying on them, and we know that there was at least one KR order whose members could actually fly...

[Oudeis]

but can every single Highstorm recharge\power an exposed sphere only once? I mean, if I'm holding a sphere out in a Highstorm and, say, am breathing in it's Stormlight until it is empty, would it automatically fill up again? even if I'm constantly draining it?

because if so, it means that during a Highstorm, a Surgebinder has an unlimited suply of power to draw on, if they choose to brave the outside during a Storm, and that would be rather awesome, if scary and dangerous as hell  

 

I'm pretty sure not... remember that Kaladin had that sphere with him that time he was out in the Highstorm. It's just a gut feeling, but I don't think humans can draw in raw investiture. With the obvious exception aside (please recall that this isn't the WoR spoiler forum and tread carefully when you respond to this) I doubt that a Radiant could inhale stormlight directly from a storm, not without filtering it through a polestone. Perhaps it's an advanced technique further along in the ideals.