Darkness Identity

[Bloodfalcon]

I don't remember exactly why we decided that Darkness was Nalan. I think it was because it seemed like he used Windrunner abilities, and had a Just-type demeanor, right? The thread in the steel-hunt forum suggests it was just kind of.... decided on. Mostly based on the Just thing, and the fact that Darkness has papers. 

I'm curious because he is described several times has having a mark underneath his eye, and we have a Herald who has just that in the drawing of his face - Kalak. He also has the Transportation surge, and we don't know exactly how that will play out for him. We assume Transportation is used by Jasnah to do Shadesmar stuff, but why couldn't it be used for fast transport in the Physical world? Lift does think it would be impossible for him to have followed her. That could be explained by a Windrunner's speed or something like that, but a Transportation surge might do the trick as well.

It is starting to come up again in conversation as though we are sure Darkness is Nalan, but the physical description with the mark fits Kalak dead on, soooooo... thoughts?

EDIT: I just found a picture online of Kalak with no mark, so I was wrong, but I was referring to the one on the Surgebinding chart. That might have been something that was just an effect on the art, but I figured it was worth talking about. One instance of a mark is better than none, right?

Edited December 18, 2013 by Bloodfalcon

[Shardbearer]

I do see the scar on the surgebinding chart, but not on the chapter heading picture of him. Hmm...

[11thorderknight]

Yeah, I noticed this as well on the Surgebinding chart. It's definitely there. Also, definitely NOT there in the Herald chapter icons. This could be because Brandon decided it would be too obvious a giveaway. 

 

In the Ym interlude, Darkness is described as appearing in the shadows, and Ym is uncertain how he got there. Given how Jasnah's shadow acting weird is a first sign of her spren type, shadows could easily have something to do with physical access to Shadesmar (I mean, even the name matches...).

 

However, Darkness' behavior is so spot-on for a corrupted Nalan, that's it's hard to argue with. 

 

I guess we'll find out eventually.

[Shardlet]

Yeah, I think it is an artifact of the 'stone' look of the background of the surgebinding chart. Looks like a crack to me. 

[Shardbearer]

Yeah, I think it is an artifact of the 'stone' look of the background of the surgebinding chart. Looks like a crack to me. 

Yeah, but the crack isn't on any of the other faces.

 

I do think that Darkness is Naln, but that picture is something to consider.

[Shardlet]

Seems to me that if it was part of the picture, it would also be on the chapter headings.  I also note that there are several other cracks in the 'stonework' of the border.

[Moogle]

It's Nalan (most likely) for a few reasons:

• Chapter heading for Lift's Interlude has his picture.
• He says that the law is 'all they have left' (paraphrased), fitting the attribute of Just to a T. He's working as a lawman.
• 'No one is beyond my reach', attribute of Confidence.
• His nickname is Darkness, and his Order's gem is a smokestone. He dresses in black. He likes shadows.
• Can't be Jezrien, as Darkness notes that he drools.
• Can't be Kalak, as we had a POV from Kalak and they are nothing alike. A thousand years will do a lot, but the personalities are just completely different. Darkness has some pent up arrogance (Edgedancers are frivolous) and is completely uncaring. Kalak, by contrast, is a tempest of emotions and seems like a pretty friendly guy from the short glance we got of him. Following the corrupted attributes theory of Heralds, Kalak should be corrupted Resolute - either suresighted to the point of insanity, or else a complete anxious wreck. Nalan should be a corrupted version of Just, which fits.
• Can't be Taln. We see him at the end.

 

I can't see it being anyone other than Nalan. The only choices are Ishar and Nalan, and of the two...

Edited December 18, 2013 by Moogle

[Shardlet]

It's Nalan (most likely) for a few reasons:

• Chapter heading for Lift's Interlude has his picture.
• He says that the law is 'all they have left' (paraphrased), fitting the attribute of Just to a T.
• His nickname is Darkness, and his Order's gem is a smokestone. He dresses in black. He likes shadows.

 

I can't see it being anyone other than Nalan.

  

The first two points are reasonable evidence.  The third point is kinda weak to my view and a bit circular.  If you want to be sneaky at night, shadows and dark clothes are usefeul.  The name 'Darkness' was given to him by lift because of his dark clothes shadowyness.  I've read the threads on it and I've seen the evidence presented.  I'm just not personally convinced.  I don't have any problem with people being convinced that he is Nalan (although, I admit that I would prefer that it wasn't stated as if it were established fact in people's posts).  I would note though, that he doesn't have to be a Herald.

 

Edit: Oh see! Now you've edited your post on me and made my numbering incorrect.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Shardlet

[Moogle]

Apologies for post editing! My post seemed far too bare to actually effectively argue the theory.

 

And while I agree Darkness might not be a Herald, we have Brandon's statements that we saw basically all the Heralds (or had reference made to them) in TWOK. Darkness was at Gavilar's assassination. The pieces fit too neatly. I am very confident he's Nalan, ~95%.

[marianmi]

@Moogle: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/4887-darkness-manipulated-the-parshendi-to-kill-gavilar/

[Bloodfalcon]

Seems to me that if it was part of the picture, it would also be on the chapter headings.  I also note that there are several other cracks in the 'stonework' of the border.

 

Yeah, after noticing that my only thought was that the art was done by 4 separate artists. I would think it would be a detail Brandon would make sure to tell them, but can't say for sure. It is also possible that the two variations are like timestamps of his image, and the mark is something new. Doubtful, I know, but something to consider.

 

 

It's Nalan (most likely) for a few reasons:

• Chapter heading for Lift's Interlude has his picture.
• He says that the law is 'all they have left' (paraphrased), fitting the attribute of Just to a T. He's working as a lawman.
• 'No one is beyond my reach', attribute of Confidence.
• His nickname is Darkness, and his Order's gem is a smokestone. He dresses in black. He likes shadows.
• Can't be Jezrien, as Darkness notes that he drools.
• Can't be Kalak, as we had a POV from Kalak and they are nothing alike. A thousand years will do a lot, but the personalities are just completely different. Darkness has some pent up arrogance (Edgedancers are frivolous) and is completely uncaring. Kalak, by contrast, is a tempest of emotions and seems like a pretty friendly guy from the short glance we got of him. Following the corrupted attributes theory of Heralds, Kalak should be corrupted Resolute - either suresighted to the point of insanity, or else a complete anxious wreck. Nalan should be a corrupted version of Just, which fits.
• Can't be Taln. We see him at the end.

 

I can't see it being anyone other than Nalan. The only choices are Ishar and Nalan, and of the two...

 

Some good points here. I, along with others, pointed out pretty quickly that Darkness fit Nalan's Just pretty quickly after reading the interlude, but a thousand years shouldn't do just a lot to these people - it appears they are going insane. So I don't consider that a real reason to dispose of the possibility. 

[Smidge]

There are other explanations for Darkness knowing things besides being a herald. He wouldn't be the only character - we still don't know how Szeth knows the things he seems to know about lashings / voidbringers. There are other immortal characters floating around (Axies). Who knows what the old magic could do regarding knowledge or immortality. There's secret societies floating around (Ghostbloods, Envisagers). There's the dreams Dalinar gets - if this sort of thing isn't unique Darkness could be getting his info from there.

 

It's certainly possible Darkness is a herald, but there are definitely other possibilities as well and it's hardly the sure thing some people are treating it as.

 

 

Apologies for post editing! My post seemed far too bare to actually effectively argue the theory.

 

And while I agree Darkness might not be a Herald, we have Brandon's statements that we saw basically all the Heralds (or had reference made to them) in TWOK. Darkness was at Gavilar's assassination. The pieces fit too neatly. I am very confident he's Nalan, ~95%.

 

All the heralds being characters in book 1 is another misconception that seems to be getting thrown around a lot. I think this comes from this Brandon quote:

 

I believe every one of the Heralds is mentioned or shown somewhere in the first book

 

Mentioned or shown. Obviously all the heralds are mentioned in the book, we know all their names, after all. And 4 are shown that we know - Kalak, Jezrien, Taln, and very likely Shalash. Also they are all quite literally shown in the chapter heading pictures. This quote is not saying that every herald makes an on-screen appearance in book 1.

[Shardlet]

 Obviously all the heralds are mentioned in the book, we know all their names, after all. And 4 are shown that we know - Kalak, Jezrien, Taln, and very likely Shalash. Also they are all quite literally shown in the chapter heading pictures. This quote is not saying that every herald makes an on-screen appearance in book 1.

 

Actually, not all of the Heralds are mentioned.  Off, the top of my head, the ones we KNOW we've seen are Jezrien and Kalak.  We pretty much Universally agree that we've seen Shallash.  And, obviously, it is commonly believed that we have seen Nalan.  We have heard mention of Jezrien, Ishar, and Shallash.  We have mention of Nalan if you count the imprint of the relief of Nalan with the sword of Justice.  I don't recall off-hand any other specifically mentioned Heralds.  That leaves a lot of Heralds.  

 

Note: The Ars Arcanum, does not count as the text of the book.  It is even reasonable that the Prelude doesn't count as well since it is a 'Prelude to the Stormlight Archive" and not a 'Prelude to the Way of Kings'.  Something that might well be asked of Brandon.

 

Note 2: It has been 4500 years not 1000 years since the nine abandoned the Oathpact.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Shardlet

[Moogle]

There are other explanations for Darkness knowing things besides being a herald. He wouldn't be the only character - we still don't know how Szeth knows the things he seems to know about lashings / voidbringers. There are other immortal characters floating around (Axies). Who knows what the old magic could do regarding knowledge or immortality. There's secret societies floating around (Ghostbloods, Envisagers). There's the dreams Dalinar gets - if this sort of thing isn't unique Darkness could be getting his info from there.

 

• Szeth knows very little of the Heralds, whereas Darkness has very intimate knowledge of Jezrien's state of droolingness.
• Axies is an Aimian, and has blue nails. His shapechanging abilities appear to be related to his race as a whole, as does his immortality (the 'Curse of Kind', which refers to him being an Aimian I assume). Darkness is very clearly human.
• The Old Magic might be able to make someone immortal. it could even be Axies' thing. This wouldn't explain the fact that Darkness is a Surgebinder, or that he knows the Heralds, or how he had such strong opinions on the Edgedancers.
• We know very little of the secret societies. What do we do know is that Kabsal, a member of one, seemed no better informed than the average person. He thought Urithiru was a myth!
• Envisagers similarly had corrupted knowledge/useless knowledge on the level of Szeth.
• Dalinar's dreams do not provide up to date knowledge on anything. Dalinar's knowledge extends thousands of years into the past, and no sooner. This is at odd with Darkness' modern knowledge of Jezrien.

 

 

 

It's certainly possible Darkness is a herald, but there are definitely other possibilities as well and it's hardly the sure thing some people are treating it as.

 

There's other possibilities, yes, but to be blunt: they are all incredibly farfetched. This isn't a matter of 'teaching the controversy', or anything. You don't need to spend equal time on every theory for something. We have to explain things about Nalan:

• He's apparently immortal, or at least has intimate knowledge of the Radiants, who were around thousands of years ago.
• He can Surgebind.
• He is killing Surgebinders without much difficulty. He obtained a Shardblade. He's obviously very talented.
• He is traveling with other people with Shardblades, and has been seen talking to important people and has a very important quest of stopping the Desolation.
• The chapter icon for Lift had Nalan on it, despite the fact that there were next to no themes of justice/confidence to be found in it without some stretching.
• He has a big thing for law.

The easiest explanations for this, given our knowledge, is that Darkness is a Radiant or Herald, most probably of the Skybreakers. Of the two, I lean towards him being Nalan, a Herald. An explanation should be as simple as possible and explain as much as possible. Your ideas involve things we know next to nothing about, like secret societies being involved with Heralds. I think that everyone should be privileging the Nalan hypothesis as the most likely at this point in time. It's odd not to, I think.

[Bloodfalcon]

 

• Szeth knows very little of the Heralds, whereas Darkness has very intimate knowledge of Jezrien's state of droolingness.
• Axies is an Aimian, and has blue nails. His shapechanging abilities appear to be related to his race as a whole, as does his immortality (the 'Curse of Kind', which refers to him being an Aimian I assume). Darkness is very clearly human.
• The Old Magic might be able to make someone immortal. it could even be Axies' thing. This wouldn't explain the fact that Darkness is a Surgebinder, or that he knows the Heralds, or how he had such strong opinions on the Edgedancers.
• We know very little of the secret societies. What do we do know is that Kabsal, a member of one, seemed no better informed than the average person. He thought Urithiru was a myth!
• Envisagers similarly had corrupted knowledge/useless knowledge on the level of Szeth.
• Dalinar's dreams do not provide up to date knowledge on anything. Dalinar's knowledge extends thousands of years into the past, and no sooner. This is at odd with Darkness' modern knowledge of Jezrien.

 

 

There's other possibilities, yes, but to be blunt: they are all incredibly farfetched. This isn't a matter of 'teaching the controversy', or anything. You don't need to spend equal time on every theory for something. We have to explain things about Nalan:

• He's apparently immortal, or at least has intimate knowledge of the Radiants, who were around thousands of years ago.
• He can Surgebind.
• He is killing Surgebinders without much difficulty. He obtained a Shardblade. He's obviously very talented.
• He is traveling with other people with Shardblades, and has been seen talking to important people and has a very important quest of stopping the Desolation.
• The chapter icon for Lift had Nalan on it, despite the fact that there were next to no themes of justice/confidence to be found in it without some stretching.
• He has a big thing for law.

The easiest explanations for this, given our knowledge, is that Darkness is a Radiant or Herald, most probably of the Skybreakers. Of the two, I lean towards him being Nalan, a Herald. An explanation should be as simple as possible and explain as much as possible. Your ideas involve things we know next to nothing about, like secret societies being involved with Heralds. I think that everyone should be privileging the Nalan hypothesis as the most likely at this point in time. It's odd not to, I think.

 

I agree Darkness is probably a Herald, but the "simple explanation" rule doesn't apply here. In the natural world we use it to make assumptions and it is helpful to us. In story - one used for entertainment - those unexpected twists are essential. Compounded with our knowledge being extremely limited and subject to change.... It is worth embracing every valid argument and not just the convenient ones. 

[Isomere]

My Ars Arcanum is different from the one in Coppermind. I've been assuming my electronic copy is wrong, but does anyone know the story behind how/when this error was changed? Palah is Just/confident in mine, and Nan is learned/giving.

[WeiryWriter]

My Ars Arcanum is different from the one in Coppermind. I've been assuming my electronic copy is wrong, but does anyone know the story behind how/when this error was changed? Palah is Just/confident in mine, and Nan is learned/giving.

 

It was a mistake/typo, Brandon pointed it out at a signing I think.  The correct version is on the Coppermind.

[+Aletus]

Quite honestly I've taken to calling him Agent Smith - he acts as a lawman and has intimate knowledge compared to your average person, but twisted viewpoints or not - I don't think going around and offing people who could become radiants as a Heraldic duty, even a little bit. To me he felt like someone who was justifying his actions - but is likely a member of a soon-to-be-revealed 'other' group. We fast approach only the second book, I think with the flow of things, it's entirely likely. Of course it's also entirely likely that it's just Nalan. 

Edited February 10, 2014 by Blackwood

[Gloom]

 

• Szeth knows very little of the Heralds, whereas Darkness has very intimate knowledge of Jezrien's state of droolingness.
• Axies is an Aimian, and has blue nails. His shapechanging abilities appear to be related to his race as a whole, as does his immortality (the 'Curse of Kind', which refers to him being an Aimian I assume). Darkness is very clearly human.
• The Old Magic might be able to make someone immortal. it could even be Axies' thing. This wouldn't explain the fact that Darkness is a Surgebinder, or that he knows the Heralds, or how he had such strong opinions on the Edgedancers.
• We know very little of the secret societies. What do we do know is that Kabsal, a member of one, seemed no better informed than the average person. He thought Urithiru was a myth!
• Envisagers similarly had corrupted knowledge/useless knowledge on the level of Szeth.
• Dalinar's dreams do not provide up to date knowledge on anything. Dalinar's knowledge extends thousands of years into the past, and no sooner. This is at odd with Darkness' modern knowledge of Jezrien.

 

 

There's other possibilities, yes, but to be blunt: they are all incredibly farfetched. This isn't a matter of 'teaching the controversy', or anything. You don't need to spend equal time on every theory for something. We have to explain things about Nalan:

• He's apparently immortal, or at least has intimate knowledge of the Radiants, who were around thousands of years ago.
• He can Surgebind.
• He is killing Surgebinders without much difficulty. He obtained a Shardblade. He's obviously very talented.
• He is traveling with other people with Shardblades, and has been seen talking to important people and has a very important quest of stopping the Desolation.
• The chapter icon for Lift had Nalan on it, despite the fact that there were next to no themes of justice/confidence to be found in it without some stretching.
• He has a big thing for law.

The easiest explanations for this, given our knowledge, is that Darkness is a Radiant or Herald, most probably of the Skybreakers. Of the two, I lean towards him being Nalan, a Herald. An explanation should be as simple as possible and explain as much as possible. Your ideas involve things we know next to nothing about, like secret societies being involved with Heralds. I think that everyone should be privileging the Nalan hypothesis as the most likely at this point in time. It's odd not to, I think.

 

Upvote for the Just/confident tone of the post

[Haxors]

How do we know without a doubt that the Heralds are corrupted? As far as I can tell it's all just speculation to say that they are corrupted, (although if Nalan is Darkness then I would agree that they are corrupted). I'm just curious as to where the proof of the Heralds being corrupted comes from, or if it is just a theory that we have all started seeing as fact?

[Awesomeness Summoned]

How do we know without a doubt that the Heralds are corrupted? As far as I can tell it's all just speculation to say that they are corrupted, (although if Nalan is Darkness then I would agree that they are corrupted). I'm just curious as to where the proof of the Heralds being corrupted comes from, or if it is just a theory that we have all started seeing as fact?

I'm pretty sure it's all theory at this point. Just assumptions based on the belief that darkness and his associates at Gavilar's party are actually heralds and they are acting strange. There is a topic that discusses it a bit HERE.

 

Edit: There is a link at the start of that thread which goes to one of the early theories by Argent on the topic.

Edited February 11, 2014 by awesomeness summoned

[Moogle]

How do we know without a doubt that the Heralds are corrupted? As far as I can tell it's all just speculation to say that they are corrupted, (although if Nalan is Darkness then I would agree that they are corrupted). I'm just curious as to where the proof of the Heralds being corrupted comes from, or if it is just a theory that we have all started seeing as fact?

 

It's not fact, but it's a very well-supported theory because of Shallash, Nalan, Kalak, and potentially Jezrien.

• Shallash: Creative/Honest. Is currently destroying art of herself (she's 99% likely to be Baxil's mistress). An odd mixture of anti-creativity and honesty (maybe she feels she doesn't deserve to be venerated and is being truthful by destroying 'lies' of herself).
• Nalan: Just/Confident. Is currently dealing out 'justice' to any Surgebinders he can find dirt on. And everyone's done something wrong at some point.
• Kalak: Resolute/Builder. He was broken at the end of the Oathpact, and seemed whiny rather than resolute. "Jezrien, I can't keep doing this!" He's very possibly the whiny person Nalan was talking to in the Jasnah prologue (though that could be a Radiant or random flunky?).
• Jezrien: Protecting/Leading. Speculated to be the drunk beggar that Szeth sees - being drunk and forcing other people to feed you is about as corrupted as you can make those attributes.

Now, we may be wrong on some of these Heralds, but it seems likely we're right on a few. So that's where the theory of corrupted attributes comes from.

Edited February 11, 2014 by Moogle

[Haxors]

Thanks guys, much appreciated mini info dump lol

[Bloodfalcon]

This thread doesn't need to be resurrected or given a lot of attention, but I did just notice that the marking on Kalak's face also appears on Brandon's website. It seems to be intentional. I don't know what that means - it just seems to confuse me. Can someone tell me where we stand? Do we have proof Darkness is Nalan yet? I thought I had accepted it, but the scar on the face is just mentioned so many times that I kind of want to put it to rest. 

[Moogle]

This thread doesn't need to be resurrected or given a lot of attention, but I did just notice that the marking on Kalak's face also appears on Brandon's website. It seems to be intentional. I don't know what that means - it just seems to confuse me. Can someone tell me where we stand? Do we have proof Darkness is Nalan yet? I thought I had accepted it, but the scar on the face is just mentioned so many times that I kind of want to put it to rest. 

 

Darkness basically tells Szeth he's Nale, Herald of Justice. As to the scar on the cheek, it's likely a reference to Bao Zheng, who is a Chinese figure exemplifying honesty and justice. Bao Zheng also has a crescent shaped white birthmark. It would be crazy for Darkness to be anyone but Nalan.

 

Here's Nalan confirming, though I guess it's not 100%:

 

“Nin,” he whispered. “The one they call Nalan, or Nale, here. Herald of Justice.”

Nin nodded.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Moogle