Theory: The 10 Essences are Linked to the 10 Surges

[Shardbearer]

One of the things I see on this forum is that everyone seems to assume that the 10 Essences are linked to the 10 Orders of KR. You can see this because people post things along the lines of Kaladin's attributes are Protecting/Leading.

 

Personally, I am inclined to believe that the Essences are linked to the Surges instead. That would make Kaladin Protecting/Leading/Just/Confident.

 

The reason I believe they are linked this way instead of to the Orders is that each Order has 4 unique Ideals other than the First, and it makes sense to me that the 4 Ideals are derived from the 4 attributes of that Order's Surges.

 

Other than that, I don't really have much to go on.

[Moogle]

I like this theory. It elegantly explains why there's only five Ideals for each group of Radiants. I'm curious as to whether that means the Orders share Ideals.

[Shardbearer]

I don't know, they could have different interpretations for the same Attributes and word the Ideals differently.

[Natans]

I maybe be wrong. But Teft said that which order had different ideals based in the "Way of Kings" that had 40 parables.

 

So 10 order x 4 unique ideals( the fist one are shared among all) = 40 ideals.

 

One ideal for parable.

 

This make sense given the fact that Nohadon wrote the book was a guide book for the KR. What is futher confirmed given the fact that Gavilar was "studying" the book to understand what are the "Most important words that a man can say" AKA the 40 (plus one) Ideals.

 

But upvotes for you, I liked your thoughts about the matter they make sense =)

Edited November 12, 2013 by Natans

[Shardlet]

First off, long time no see shardbearer, welcome back.

 

However, I am inclined to disagree.  But, only based on the table in the AA where each essence is associated with a number (which appears to be based on the names of the Heralds), a gem, divine attributes, etc. and the KR table in the front of the book.  We know that each order is associated with a specific Herald.  The symbol for each order further reflects a gemstone apparently associated with that order.  Each order is in a position analogous to an image of a Herald which corresponds back to the AA table.  These two tables jive very nicely together.  This one-to-one correlation suggests to me that each order has only two divine attributes associated with it, these being the ones which correspond to the Herald associated with the order and the gem color depicted in the order's symbol.  (That is, of course, not to say that individual members of each order cannot personally reflect the divine attributes of another order). 

[Argent]

This makes all sorts of sense.

[Shardbearer]

I maybe be wrong. But Teft said that which order had different ideals based in the "Way of Kings" that had 40 parables.

 

So 10 order x 4 unique ideal( the fist one are shared among all) = 40 ideals.

 

One ideal for parable.

 

This make sense given the fact that Nohadon wrote the book was a guide book for the KR. What is futher confirmed given the fact that Gavilar was "studying" the book to understand what are the "Most important words that a man can say" AKA the 40 (plus one) Ideals.

 

But upvotes for share you thought they make sense =)

 

Hmm, that throws a bit of wrench in my theory, but it could still work. The 40 parables could be related to the 20 Attributes, with 2 different interpretations for each attribute. That way you would still have 40 unique Ideals among the Orders.

 

It's certainly possible that the 20 Attributes weren't ever formalized until way after Nohadon wrote his book. Someone read the parables and decided that it would make a nice bit of symmetry to come up with 2 Attributes for each Essence for each parable.

[Shardbearer]

First off, long time no see shardbearer, welcome back.

 

However, I am inclined to disagree.  But, only based on the table in the AA where each essence is associated with a number (which appears to be based on the names of the Heralds), a gem, divine attributes, etc. and the KR table in the front of the book.  We know that each order is associated with a specific Herald.  The symbol for each order further reflects a gemstone apparently associated with that order.  Each order is in a position analogous to an image of a Herald which corresponds back to the AA table.  These two tables jive very nicely together.  This one-to-one correlation suggests to me that each order has only two divine attributes associated with it, these being the ones which correspond to the Herald associated with the order and the gem color depicted in the order's symbol.  (That is, of course, not to say that individual members of each order cannot personally reflect the divine attributes of another order). 

 

Yes, which was one of my concerns with this theory too. However, I can't find anything to make me think that each Order might not have 2 patron Heralds, one for each Surge.

 

Edit: I got sucked back in here after finding out about the Steelhunt.

Edited November 12, 2013 by shardbearer

[Bloodfalcon]

Yes. Love it. Thank you and your mind. Whether or not it is true, it opens up plenty of room for fresh thought.

[Unknowingly]

Edit: sorry for the diuble post, my computer is being wierd

Edited November 13, 2013 by Connor the Shardholder

[Unknowingly]

If you are right and a Herald is instead associated with each surge rather than each order, effectively giving each order 4 divine attributes...

Does that mean each Herald possibly only had acess to one surge but it was super charged? Like having a permanent duralumin pewter burn.

So then nalan would have pressure(I think) but it would be far beyond what any radiant could do even with their 'combination' surges. Also the incresed dexterity, speed, strength and healing would also be magnified in a Herald.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Connor the Shardholder

[Ethrien]

Its a cool idea, but I've got some of the same issues as others, regarding tables not quite lining up.

 

My main issue is with the Surgebinding table (Raw Version, Recent Update). In it we get a nice line up between Orders of Radiants and the Heralds in the border. What we don't get is a nice line up between Surges, and Heralds. We can make Jezriens Surge the left most of the two at the top or the top most of those at the far left, neither looks more correct than the other to me. How I'd approach it is to take the extra aspects from the supporting Heralds/Orders instead of Surges.

 

So Windrunners would take both Protecting/Leading from Jezrien, their Herald; then one of Pious/Guiding from Ishar and one of Just/Confident from Nalan, the two supporting Heralds. Which leaves us with four possible combinations depending on how you want to choose the bonus attributes.

 

1. Protecting/Leading/Guiding/Confident; Using only the secondary attributes.

2. Protecting/Leading/Guiding/Just; My favorite for reasons given below.

3. Protecting/Leading/Pious/Confident

4. Protecting/Leading/Pious/Just

 

I'm split between having each Order keep their primary attribute as something special to them and a pet theory I've had for a while that each secondary attribute is a lesser form of the next Order's primary. A societies Leader decides Justice for their subjects; a Confident person is ofttimes Brave; Obedience is a small part of Love, people who practice Healing need to be Learned in medicine; Giving is easy if you can Create what you give; Honest people aren't Wise but they'll still often tell you what you need to hear; a Guide Protects us by keeping us on the safe path. It's not a particularly strong theory, some of the justification above are kinda weak and I completely left out Careful-Resolute; Builder-Dependable; Resourceful-Pious; because I couldn't come up with good justifications. However I like the way it fits into this.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Ethrien

[Swimmingly]

It's always nice to remember that the tables and charts in Sanderson's books aren't always entirely true. Perhaps, over time, things were lost.

[marianmi]

Let's also remember that Syl was attracted by Protecting/Leading, not by Protecting/Leading/Just/Confident.

And the attributes are those that attract a spren. And there is 1:1 between spren and order. => there is 1:1 divine attributes to order.

[Shardbearer]

Let's also remember that Syl was attracted by Protecting/Leading, not by Protecting/Leading/Just/Confident.

And the attributes are those that attract a spren. And there is 1:1 between spren and order. => there is 1:1 divine attributes to order.

 

How do we know she was attracted only by Protecting and Leading and not the others also?

 

Obviously, Kaladin doesn't appear to be all that confident through most of the book, but people have already theorized that KR have to grow into their second attribute.

 

Kaladin does show himself to be someone who cares about justice a great deal. Everytime he is let down by someone's lack of honor it is because they act unjustly.

[marianmi]

About the "having to grow into the second attribute", I believe I am one of the first proponents. "Having to grow" means more like gaining a true understanding, and thus a level of acceptance, than developing it.

 

Kaladin: has shown his desire to protect in numerous occasions, with Tien and in the army. He's also a good leader, his squad being one of the best. In fact, he was displaying these attributes in Amaram's army when he attracted Syl, but she did not truly gain consciousness until later, when Kaladin was doing anything but leading and protecting. When Syl first started talking to Kaladin, she asked him why was he giving up (on protecting/leading). Only when Kaladin accepted the fact that protecting/leading is not about saving his soldier's life, and that sacrifice is acceptable for a greater good - gaining a much higher level view of what protecting means - he was able to understand the second ideal, and the words came to him. Similarly Shallan struggles with the truth. This is not actually about her lies to Jasnah, those are more to set the scene. Only when she admits and accepts the fact that she killed her father, she is able to create the bond and start soulcasting. Remember that she could see multiple symbolheads, but when soulcasting she was talking to only one of them, i.e. the one that she bonded with (as a side note, I wonder if the "truth" she told was required to create the bond, or is something required each time she soulcasts.) So Shallan's issue was not that she was not telling the truth, but more that she was not facing the truth. I am very excited about WoR and hope to see a confident Shallan, very much changed from the first book.

 

With this said, I see nothing about Just/Confident as primary attributes for Kaladin. Yes, he was not confident at times, but this was a direct result of his issues with protecting and leading. And his sense of justice is skewed by his interactions with the lighteyes. You can find most of the divine attributes in all proto-Radiants, that's why for example there are multiple threads about Dalinar's order - he is just, confident, protecting, leading, and several others... There are maybe 4 orders he could be in. But I think if you squint, you see that their primary attributes are highly tied to the issues that each are dealing with. And Kaladin's theme was: "can you protect by killing?"

Edited November 17, 2013 by marianmi

[Shardbearer]

I see your point. Upvote.