Jump to content

Theory: Odium pitted Devotion and Dominion against each other


thek9

Recommended Posts

Maybe more baseless speculation, than theory, since we don't have much evidence available here, but I've always wondered how Odium was responsible for the splintering of at least 3 shards. Honor, you can kind of understand, in that Odium spent a lot of time in the Rosharan system, and probably invested less of himself in the population than Honor did, or somehow got the better of Honor with the Oathpact. I guess we will find out in the Stormlight Archive.

 

But Devotion and Dominion? He managed to splinter both of them, despite not being long on Sel (in relationship to his time in the Rosharan system, anyway). You would think Devotion and Dominion together could've beat Odium on their home turf. The most logical conclusion I can make is that Odium somehow was able to pit Devotion and Dominion against each other. They are not opposites in the manner of Ruin and Preservation, and may have some natural conflict, but I think that Odium (perhaps by his very nature, and/or by clever manipulation of world events) somehow amplified and/or set them against each other. Hoid's letter says that Aona and Skai are both dead, not that Odium killed them, which Hoid probably would've said outright, if it was true. Odium was responsible, but did not act directly against them (as he could not have overcome them directly, especially in so short a time on their homeground, given how long it took him to kill Honor).

 

This could also have led to the split between Shu-Korath and Shu-Dereth. I realize that split occurred after the splintering, but the societal forces that Odium set in motion earlier could have made such a split inevitable, even far later in the timeline.

Edited by thek9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps that's why Honour is splintered and Cultivation isn't? Odium pits Cultivation against Honour, and rather than mutually annihilate each other, Cultivation survives, meaning that he has to deal with her personally and invest himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to disagree that Devotion and Dominion are not polar opposites.

 

People are interpreting Devotion as love, but it's so much more. It's mindset. To use the cake example below, you can indeed love and control a cake at the same time, but you cannot devote yourself completely to it, and dominate its "life" completely. The 2 simply aren't compatible.

Now when it comes to Aona Skai battling. I can see that because they ARE opposites. Especially in a Mexican stand off situation. Skai kills Aona. Rayse kills Skai. Etc.

Concerning the Letter. You gotta understand. BS has 9 more books planned for SA, and that sly devil has who knows how many more Cosmere books. BS is very aware that the .17th Shard takes every word he utters and picks it apart for information. He doesn't, and shouldn't, lay all his cards on the table. Long story short, what he doesn't say is almost as important as what he does say.

 

EDIT: Rewrote paragraph 2

Edited by DocHoliday
Content
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to disagree that Devotion and Dominion are not polar opposites.

 

...

Concerning the Letter. You gotta understand. BS has 9 more books planned for SA, and that sly devil has who knows how many more Cosmere books. BS is very aware that the .17th Shard takes every word he utters and picks it apart for information. He doesn't, and shouldn't, lay all his cards on the table. Long story short, what he doesn't say is almost as important as what he does say.

 

Certainly, they are related to each other, but I wouldn't exactly call them opposites, at least not in the Ruin/Preservation sense.  But regardless, I don't think it really matters whether you consider them complements or opposites or something else, in any of those cases Odium could still provoke, start, and/or enhance conflict between them.

 

As far as the letter goes, what it doesn't say (that Odium himself killed Aona/Skai directly–which wouldn't have had to happen if Odium just provoked/tricked them into killing each other) is exactly what I was referring to. Sure, anything could be a false trail, but the wording is suspicious.

 

Furthermore, the letter states that it was "Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse." This could suggest that Dominion and Devotion working together would have been a threat to Rayse (which would imply that Dominion and Devotion did not have to be at each other's throats) or that someone might potentially have picked up both Shards. Maybe it's a bit of a stretch and I'm over-reading, but it is suggestive.

 

EDIT: Removed incorrectly remembered quote reference

Edited by thek9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Brandon has said that Ruin and Preservation are the only Shards with directly opposing intents.  I will find the quote, when I get a chance.

I find that very hard to believe, but I will await your quote. Surely, though, he would have mentioned that when he answered this:

 

Interview: May, 2010 Chaos

Are Shards all paired? Does Endowment have a counterpart?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. Also, yes and no. Not all Shards have perfect counterparts like Ruin and Preservation.

 

Source: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27endowment%27 (Number 3)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to disagree that Devotion and Dominion are not polar opposites.

Now when it comes to Aona Skai battling. I can see that because they ARE opposites. Especially in a Mexican stand off situation. Skai kills Aona. Rayse kills Skai. Etc.

Concerning the Letter. You gotta understand. BS has 9 more books planned for SA, and that sly devil has who knows how many more Cosmere books. BS is very aware that the .17th Shard takes every word he utters and picks it apart for information. He doesn't, and shouldn't, lay all his cards on the table. Long story short, what he doesn't say is almost as important as what he does say.

Hey Doc, that's not really the sort of metaphor we allow on the forums, so I removed it. Feel free to edit your post so it transitions better. Thanks! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as opposites...

 

Devotion and Dominion. You can both love something, and control it. (Hi, mom.)

 

Preservation and Ruin. You cannot both destroy something, and save it. You can (and Vin did) destroy one thing to save another, but you cannot do both at once. This is the most literal time possible to use the aphorism, "You cannot have your cake and eat it, too." Either you leave the cake in front of you (preserving it) or you masticate it (ruining it).

 

I'm also talking atomic here; if you eat half the cake, then you've just made two smaller pieces of cake, destroyed one and saved the other. You can love and control an entire cake all at once, you cannot save and destroy an entire cake all at once.

 

As for the basic idea of this thread, that Odium convinced Aona and Skai to fight... I think it might be a bit oversimplified, but in the end, true. I doubt it turned into a matter of, "You see that Shard over there? He says you're fat." I do think it is very plausible, and perhaps even likely, that he tricked them in some manner, set them on a path that ended in both of their deaths, which may or may not have been direct conflict. I am still insanely curious on the method by which a Shard is Splintered, so until I get any information on the subject I'm going to attempt to avoid speculation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Presumably a direct conflict between shards is a little like Vin versus Ruin; they are not shattered but their power exists in a latent form like the mists (I kind of assumed that had Sazed not showed up we woul have gotten the powers expressed in some physical way throughout Scadrial). Odium would have needed to stay after the conflict to splinter their shards. Come to think of it, the Scadrians are lucky that Odium didn't show up at the end of HoA. Good theory.

Edited by Araris Valerian
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find that very hard to believe, but I will await your quote. Surely, though, he would have mentioned that when he answered this:

 

Ok, sorry, it appears I was incorrect about the polar opposite quote that I remembered–I think I may have misread a reader's response post as WoB. I still don't really see Dominion and Devotion as polar opposites, though, more like a complementary pair. Nonetheless, I don't think whether or not they are polar opposites ultimately affects the validity of the theory. In fact, if they were already opposite each other, it would presumably be even easier for Odium to manipulate events such that the Shards would destroy each other, by enhancing or playing on this opposition.

Edited by thek9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odium may have done just that. However, in The Letter, Hoid mentions a few of the Shards by their names and implies that he knew Rayse before Rayse took up Odium's Shard. The implication would be that the first holders of Shards of Adonalsium all knew each other. If that's true, Odium would have that much more difficult a time trying to bamboozle Dominion and Devotion becuase they ought to remember him and know that he's probably up to no good.

I think Shards are splintered when things they have Invested in directly contradict the Shards intent. I think Odium never went to Scadrial because the two Shards there were such perfect opposites that he figured they were bound to Splinter each other eventually. Think of when Vin/Preservation applied her power agaisnt Ruin - they were so directly opposed to each other's Intent that they were mutually destroying each other.

How Odium would accomplish this on Sel, I haven't the faintest.

I'm not as Sel savy as I am with the rest of the Cosmere, so I don't have any compelling speculations on hand, but I do have a theory on how Honor was splintered. What are some of the least honorable things you can do? Lying and betraying comes to mind. Nine out of Ten Heralds, whom Honor was obviously Invested in, broke the Oathpact and then lied to humanity about it. That directly contradicts Honor's Intent, which must have been a devastating blow to him. Then the Knights Radiant pulled the same stunt, which just might have Splintered Honor.

So somehow Odium is manipulating Shard's by their Intent and causing them to Splinter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odium may have done just that. However, in The Letter, Hoid mentions a few of the Shards by their names and implies that he knew Rayse before Rayse took up Odium's Shard. The implication would be that the first holders of Shards of Adonalsium all knew each other. If that's true, Odium would have that much more difficult a time trying to bamboozle Dominion and Devotion becuase they ought to remember him and know that he's probably up to no good.

 

They did all know each other.  The original shardholders are all supposed to be characters in Liar of Partinel (Hoid's backstory book that takes place pre-Shattering).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Odium may have done just that. However, in The Letter, Hoid mentions a few of the Shards by their names and implies that he knew Rayse before Rayse took up Odium's Shard. The implication would be that the first holders of Shards of Adonalsium all knew each other. If that's true, Odium would have that much more difficult a time trying to bamboozle Dominion and Devotion becuase they ought to remember him and know that he's probably up to no good.

I think Shards are splintered when things they have Invested in directly contradict the Shards intent. I think Odium never went to Scadrial because the two Shards there were such perfect opposites that he figured they were bound to Splinter each other eventually. Think of when Vin/Preservation applied her power agaisnt Ruin - they were so directly opposed to each other's Intent that they were mutually destroying each other.

How Odium would accomplish this on Sel, I haven't the faintest.

I'm not as Sel savy as I am with the rest of the Cosmere, so I don't have any compelling speculations on hand, but I do have a theory on how Honor was splintered. What are some of the least honorable things you can do? Lying and betraying comes to mind. Nine out of Ten Heralds, whom Honor was obviously Invested in, broke the Oathpact and then lied to humanity about it. That directly contradicts Honor's Intent, which must have been a devastating blow to him. Then the Knights Radiant pulled the same stunt, which just might have Splintered Honor.

So somehow Odium is manipulating Shard's by their Intent and causing them to Splinter.

 

That's a neat theory, although I'm not sure about Scadrial as an example – Ruin and Preservation never were splintered, and the Steel Inquisitors were using Preservation's allomancy to support Ruin's intent.

 

I agree that it probably wasn't just a matter of, as Darnam so succinctly put it, Odium saying, "You see that Shard over there? He says you're fat." I suspect that Odium was more crafty and subtle, and probably manipulated world events somehow to promote this conflict. Hopefully Elantris 2 will give us some more insights, although it would be better if we could see pre-shattering Sel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alaxel, I was about to disagree with you, but I think you might be onto something. You're implying a symbiotic relationship between a Shard and the people and organisms that live there. That gives a strong reason beyond just their Intents for Shards to develop civilizations. The more in line with their Intent a civilization is, perhaps the stronger a Shard becomes. Maybe investiture is a gamble Shards take to try and realize greater returns in the end.

 

If there's any truth to that, Odium may have found a way to "short out" the other Shards without direct conflict like he has been engaged in on Roshar. Perhaps the Desolations have taught him that direct conflict is not an effective way to splinter an enemy Shard. He probably got pretty frustrated when he basically wiped out humanity 999 times on Roshar, tortured the enemy's champions on multiple occasions (maybe for centuries or millenia), but they kept showing up anyway, killed everything in sight, released some of the most horrific things he could think of to kill everything in sight, forced the rocks, literally under his enemy's feet, to get up and try to kill them...and he still can't win. I mean, really, what's a guy got to do to complete a genocide on that rotten planet?!

 

It's quite possible, he found a better way to win and what you describe is it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alaxel, I was about to disagree with you, but I think you might be onto something. You're implying a symbiotic relationship between a Shard and the people and organisms that live there. That gives a strong reason beyond just their Intents for Shards to develop civilizations. The more in line with their Intent a civilization is, perhaps the stronger a Shard becomes. Maybe investiture is a gamble Shards take to try and realize greater returns in the end.

If there's any truth to that, Odium may have found a way to "short out" the other Shards without direct conflict like he has been engaged in on Roshar. Perhaps the Desolations have taught him that direct conflict is not an effective way to splinter an enemy Shard. He probably got pretty frustrated when he basically wiped out humanity 999 times on Roshar, tortured the enemy's champions on multiple occasions (maybe for centuries or millenia), but they kept showing up anyway, killed everything in sight, released some of the most horrific things he could think of to kill everything in sight, forced the rocks, literally under his enemy's feet, to get up and try to kill them...and he still can't win. I mean, really, what's a guy got to do to complete a genocide on that rotten planet?!

It's quite possible, he found a better way to win and what you describe is it.

I like the way you built on my initial idea with the symbiotic relationship theory. A nice way to describe what I was implying. But yeah.

I looked at Ruin and Preservation's conflict and the way I interpreted it was that it wasn't Preservation and Ruin's near equal power that caused their mutual destruction, although it was certainly a large factor, but their polar opposite Intent's.

That got me wondering. How on Earth could Odium ever destroy a Shard if he'd be destroyed in the process? My conclusion was that he must somehow force a Shard to Invest heavily and then also "checkmate" the Shard into destroying itself by doing something contradictory to its Intent.

I think I'll work on this, cite some sources, find some WoB where I can, and then publish Alaxel's Odious Guide to Shardic Paradox. Or something fancy/pretentious sounding lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's important that we all remember that what happened with Ruin and Preservation was nothing even slightly like Splintering. It was direct conflict, their holders both died, and the Shards themselves were entirely unharmed. We know that Skai and Aona are both dead, but we don't know if that was required for their Splintering. We know Tanavast is dead, but we don't know if that was required for his Splintering. The only thing we do know is that a direct assault of two equally matches Shards with opposing Intents will kill the holders and leave the Shards intact, so that's very unlikely to be what Odium did on Sel or Roshar or plans anywhere else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...