Alternative Davar/Ghostblood Idea (i.e., Kaladin did not kill Shallan's brother)

[Shardlet]

Ok, so this idea started out as a discussion with Moogle about calling the theory that Shallan's brother, Nan Helaran, was the shardbearer which Kaladin killed in the Amaram battle.  Moogle is very convinced that this theory is accurate.  Of course that is fine.  My intent is not to disprove that theory, but rather to construct an alternative scenario which fits the evidence we have thus far.  This all started out as just tossing an idea out there and it gradually became a compelling chain of plausible events in its own right.  So, to start, I will present the evidence Moogle presented to establish the shardbearer theory (bear with me, this will be a long post):

 

 

Quote

There was that matter of the strange collection of maps they'd found his study. What did they mean? He'd rarely spoken of his plans to his children. Even her father's advisors knew very little. Helaran--her eldest brother--had known more, but he had vanished over a year ago, and her father had proclaimed him dead.

 

Shallan's father was a member of the Ghostbloods. Even her father's advisor - the steward who was also a member of the Ghostbloods -- didn't know more than Helaran. That implies he was in heavy with his father, which probably means he was in the Ghostbloods.

 

Quote

>

ONE YEAR AGO

...

There--bearing down through the soldiers on a horse the color of death itself--was an impossibility.
The man wore shining golden armor. Perfect golden armor.

-Kaladin scene with the Shardbearer attacking Amaram, which happened one year ago, the time when Shallan's brother was missing for a short while then declared dead.

 

Quote

"...why Thaidakar would risk this?" Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. "But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?"
"He was Veden, Brightlord," the stormwarden said. "Nobody I recognize. But I will investigate."

Shallan is Veden. Ergo, her brother would be Veden. The Shardbearer who attacked Amaram was Veden and unknown. Shallan's family is rural, and thus their appearances would not be readily recognized.

Again, it's not certain, but you basically have to propose Brandon is attempting to trick us with red herrings here.

If that doesn't convince you, I don't think anything will short of a direct book confirmation.

 

So, this evidence truly does fit the prevailing theory quite nicely (hence it being the prevailing theory).

 

So, in the words of Clue, "That's how it could have happened".  But, what about this:

 

Luesh, a member of a secret organization known as the Ghostbloods was employed as steward to the head of House Davar, a Veden noble house.  The Ghostbloods, who have a specific and active agenda, are seeking to increase their power and political influence.  As a means of achieving this goal, the Ghostbloods seek to put a sympathizer in place as a high prince of Vedenar.  Luesh informs the Ghostbloods that House Davar is has traveled far down the road to dire financial straits and therefore provides the Ghostbloods with an opening.  The Ghostbloods come to an agreement with house Davar to provide him with financial backing with the goal of House Davar claiming a vulnerable Veden highprincedom in return for certain political influence and favors.

 

The Ghostbloods cannot simply provide House Davar with direct financial backing, this would draw too much attention as well as raise uncomfortable questions regarding the source of this sudden wealth.  It is decided that the Ghostbloods will provide House Davar with a soulcasting fabrial to produce valuable mineral deposits on Davar lands that House Davar will then be able to exploit an monetize on the open market.  That way, there is an obvious, verifiable, and 'legitimate' source for the new Davar wealth.  However, the Ghostbloods get something else in the bargain as well.  The use of soulcasters in this fashion is forbidden and thus the Ghostbloods have additional leverage over House Davar.

 

Time passes and the head of House Davar brings his son and heir Nan Helaran in on his plans.  However, either immediately or over time Nan Helaran rejects these plans and becomes a liability to the Ghostbloods.  He must be silenced.  He suddenly and inexplicably 'disappears' and is never heard from again.  About a year later, the head of house Davar is dead.  The new heir, Nan Balat, is brought up to speed by the steward Luesh on what his father was up to.  Nan Balat shares this info with his siblings and the family craps a collective brick when it is discovered that the extraordinarily valuable soulcaster is no longer working.  Attempts are made to repair it to no avail.  A desperate and dangerous plan to save the family is decided upon with Luesh, the Ghostblood family steward, having divided loyalties between the Ghostbloods and the Davar children, complicit in this plan. 

 

During the course of this plan, the Ghostbloods, knowing that the Davar patriarch is dead, send enforcer agents to Nan Balat to demand that the soulcaster is returned to the organization.  After all, such a threat is more effective if made by someone unknown and more threatening than good old Luesh whom the children have known for so many years.  Later, the Ghostbloods learn of Luesh's duplicity and take actions to address his betrayal which result in Luesh's death. 

 

So, that is the scenario.  In conjunction with this scenario neither Helaran nor his father need be actual members of the Ghostbloods.  Conservation of characters and the fact that the shardbearer Kaladin killed was Veden are the best evidences for the prevailing theory over another alternative.  But inter-tangling the character's side stories too much begins to make things hokey in my view.  It gets to the point where it is discovered that Han Solo is actually the son of Amidala's secret lover who secretly hoped that his son would one day marry Amidala's unborn daughter.  Besides, this is a 10 volume epic.  There is a lot of room for additional significant characters (including a Veden shardbearer who is a Ghostblood). 

 

It has been posited that if the shardbearer was not Helaran, than why would the Ghostbloods risk sending a Veden shardbearer into an Alethi border conflict.  To this I have two responses: 1) Sending a mounted shardbearer into an Alethi border conflict (which will be fought largely by second tier soldiers and no other shardbearers) would not likely be considered a particularly big risk.  Add to that, the way Kaladin killed him was extraordinary and would never have been considered a significant possibility.  Especially since the shardbearer did not enter the fray until Amaram's forces were routed. 2) This is kind of a straw man argument, the fact is whether or not the shardbearer was Helaran, the shardbearer was in fact Veden.  Helaran or not, the Ghostbloods sent a Veden shardbearer.

 

Again, my purpose is not to contest that the shardbearer was Shallan's brother, but rather to propose a reasonable alternative relying upon the same evidence.  I actually have no opinion on this theory at all except that I don't think the evidence is particular strong (compelling, yes) to support any idea currently set forth to the extent that alternative theories are particularly unlikely.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Shardlet

[Gloom]

Okay, so the connections we have at the moment are;

 

 House Davar was mixed up with the Ghost Bloods, and the Shardbearer was a suspected to have been a Ghostblood.

 

Shallan's brother disappeared within a time frame that could allow for him to have been the Shardbearer that Kaladin faced and killed.

 

Both Shallan's brother and the Shardbearer were from Jah Keved (Vedenar).

 

I can't say that Shallan's brother wasn't the Shardbearer, but the evidence is far from conclusive. Why bring a foreign Shardbearer into an Alethi border skirmish? I believe they are called mercenaries. Amaram appears to be a well connected nobleman. He is aware of the Ghostbloods, knows enough about their organization to drop names, and appears politically suave enough to have informants. It may have just been safer to contract a foreign Shardbearer. Vedenar is located in Jah Keved, so if you're looking for a Shardbearer that isn't Alethi, Jah Keved is your next best option.

 

If Amaram was correct and the Shardbearer is a member of the Ghostbloods (We only have Amaram's speculation on this and when Brandon does throw us red herrings, he often does so through dialog.), and the purpose was to eliminate Amaram, why not contract someone who has their own Shards? House Davar was far from the height of Jah Keveds nobility. It is unlikely they had two Shardblades and a set of Plate. It's possible, but I think if they did, they would have had a higher standing within Jah Keved were this so. According to Dalinar, Jah Keved only holds about twenty sets of Shards.

 

I suspect that the Ghostbloods are a large enough organization that they have more than a few men trained and seasoned in battle. I also suspect that more than a few of them are from Jah Keved.

 

Like I said, I'm not saying the Shardbearer wasn't, or couldn't have been Shallan's brother, but I'll need a bit more evidence before I'm convinced of this. Fortunately, we will see more of Amaram in WoR, and the topic may come up. If it was Shallan's brother, kudos to Moogle and his fellow conspirators.

[hoser]

I agree that the evidence for the Shardbearer being Shallan's brother is not strong.  The main reason I believe in it is the dramatic possibilities.  There is one statement in the OP that does not fit my understanding of the situation. 

Especially since the shardbearer did not enter the fray until Amaram's forces were routed.

My understanding is that Amaram's forces were ascendent at the time the Shardbearer appeared.  Amaram had a pattern of allowing an early advance to overwhelm his green troops, then counterattacking.  He had done that again and was essentially winning when the Shardbearer appeared. 

[Gloom]

Dramatic possibilities...Okay, Kaladin had no knowledge of who the Shardbearer was nor did he have any knowledge of who house Davar was. Kaladin isn't going to share his killing of the Shardbearer easily. On the other hand, should Amarams investigation link the Shardbearer to House Davar, he could inform Dalinar and cast suspicion upon Shallan. Depending on what Kaladins relationship with Shallan is at the time, it could stress that relationship. A grudge may exist, some anger, but I really don't see Brandon making a soap opera out of it. Linking House Davar to the Ghost Knights could create a schism between Jasnah, Shallan, possibly Kaladin, and Dalinar.

 

I could see tension between Kaladin and Shallan, but I think that tension would be overshadowed by larger political realities. If House Davar is linked to the Ghost Bloods, it could theoretically lead to the extinction of that house through assassination. It also may not be the first time something like that was attempted against House Davar.

[Cheese Ninja]

No credit for me? I feel down.

 

I'd say my major point of disagreement is this:

But inter-tangling the character's side stories too much begins to make things hokey in my view.  It gets to the point where it is discovered that Han Solo is actually the son of Amidala's secret lover who secretly hoped that his son would one day marry Amidala's unborn daughter.

 

It would feel hokey to me if it was something added after the fact, as it is in your Star Wars example (that didn't actually happen did it? checking... No, thankfully), but as long as it was planned from the beginning, it should flow naturally.

 

True, there's no reason the random unnamed Veden has to be Helaran, but I think that interconnectedness between heretofore unassociated major characters would be interesting.

 

Also, it didn't really matter in the conflict whether Amaram's forces were winning or not at the time the Shardbearer entered the fray.  The advantage of the Shardbearer is that he could easily penetrate the enemy lines, since they'd already been spread out at that point in the battle.  The only real threat to a Shardbearer in a fight like that is getting bogged down in massive numbers.

 

Also, I don't think the Plate and Blade belonged to House Davar, like the Soulcaster, they were strictly loaners from the Ghostbloods.

[Moogle]

Interesting theory! As I've said before, a few of these ideas come across as stretched. They're certainly possible, but here's my problems with this alternative:

 

Luesh, a member of a secret organization known as the Ghostbloods was employed as steward to the head of House Davar, a Veden noble house.  The Ghostbloods, who have a specific and active agenda, are seeking to increase their power and political influence.  As a means of achieving this goal, the Ghostbloods seek to put a sympathizer in place as a high prince of Vedenar.  Luesh informs the Ghostbloods that House Davar is has traveled far down the road to dire financial straits and therefore provides the Ghostbloods with an opening.  The Ghostbloods come to an agreement with house Davar to provide him with financial backing with the goal of House Davar claiming a vulnerable Veden highprincedom in return for certain political influence and favors.

• Perhaps we have different definitions of what a sympathizer is, but the Ghostbloods are unknown by the vast majority of the populace, and probably a good portion of the lighteyes. How can they be sure Shallan's father will be a sympathizer? If you just mean that he's going to be indebted to the Ghostbloods and will provide favors because of it, this seems like a good motive.
• Luesh is a member of the Ghostbloods... and is acting as a steward to House Davar, one of the most unimportant Houses around? I agree the Ghostbloods likely have spies everywhere they can, but this part makes me feel uncomfortable.
• House Davar was not actually in a bad financial situation before the whole highprince-plotting began and Shallan's father took in ridiculous amounts of debt. I don't see why they would need financial backing.

Time passes and the head of House Davar brings his son and heir Nan Helaran in on his plans.  However, either immediately or over time Nan Helaran rejects these plans and becomes a liability to the Ghostbloods.  He must be silenced.  He suddenly and inexplicably 'disappears' and is never heard from again.  About a year later, the head of house Davar is dead.  The new heir, Nan Balat, is brought up to speed by the steward Luesh on what his father was up to.  Nan Balat shares this info with his siblings and the family craps a collective brick when it is discovered that the extraordinarily valuable soulcaster is no longer working.  Attempts are made to repair it to no avail.  A desperate and dangerous plan to save the family is decided upon with Luesh, the Ghostblood family steward, having divided loyalties between the Ghostbloods and the Davar children, complicit in this plan.

• Why bring Helaran into this at all? Shallan's father was not particularly fond of his children at all, and he never told his advisors anything about his plans. Particularly considering that Helaran "stood up to [his] father repeatedly", I don't see why Shallan's father would bring his son into any of this. It could be that Helaran only started standing up for himself after he was brought in on the plans, but it still strikes me as odd.
• Luesh never brought Nan Balat up to speed (or else he lied to Shallan). From TWOK: "Yes, Nan Balat sent. Despite what he said, I think he must have been the one who brought the Soulcaster to Father. Luesh was involved in this, perhaps as liaison between Father and the people backing him."
• Luesh never brought up the plan to steal the Soulcaster from Jasnah. That was purely Shallan.
  
  "Six months ago, she had explained a desperate plan to her brothers. She would apprentice herself to Jasnah Kholin, scholar, heretic. Not for the education. Not for the prestige. But in order to learn where she kept her Soulcaster. And then Shallan would steal it."
  
  Luesh was told about the plan later on, however.

• Luesh is never once described as having 'loyalties' to House Davar. None of the children even appear to feel sad at his death. I find it very hard to accept that Luesh cared at all. Here's Shallan's reaction on hearing the news:
  
  "Shallan, it said. This is Nan Balat; I have sent the others away. It is only Eylita and me writing you now. There is something you need to know. Luesh is dead. Shallan blinked in surprise. Luesh, her father’s steward, had been the one who had known how to use the Soulcaster. He was one of the few people she and her brothers had determined they could trust."
  
  Luesh did promise to tell them how the Soulcaster worked, so perhaps there's something there... but there is no mention of any affection.

• I also fail to see any divided loyalties with Luesh going forward with the plan to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster. No matter what, the Ghostbloods win if they get it. And, of course, they want Jasnah dead.

During the course of this plan, the Ghostbloods, knowing that the Davar patriarch is dead, send enforcer agents to Nan Balat to demand that the soulcaster is returned to the organization.  After all, such a threat is more effective if made by someone unknown and more threatening than good old Luesh whom the children have known for so many years.  Later, the Ghostbloods learn of Luesh's duplicity and take actions to address his betrayal which result in Luesh's death.

• Luesh didn't tell the kids that he was a member of the Ghostbloods, so I'm willing to accept the enforcer bit as plausible.
• As to Luesh's duplicity... what duplicity? He's getting someone to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster. This is a brilliant plan by Luesh (not that he ever made it). It gets the Ghostbloods a Soulcaster and harms one of their enemies. There's no cost, too, as House Davar is about to go down. No favors that need be repaid.

Overall, I think your scenario is possible, but not very plausible. It has weakened my faith in the Helaran Ghostblood theory a little bit, though, so good work there.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Moogle

[Cheese Ninja]

One minor thing you seem to have forgotten:

• Why bring Helaran into this at all? Shallan's father was not particularly fond of his children at all, and he never told his advisors anything about his plans. Particularly considering that Helaran "stood up to [his] father repeatedly", I don't see why Shallan's father would bring his son into any of this. It could be that Helaran only started standing up for himself after he was brought in on the plans, but it still strikes me as odd.

There was that matter of the strange collection of maps they’d found in his study. What did they mean? He’d rarely spoken of his plans to his children. Even her father’s advisors knew very little. Helaran—her eldest brother—had known more, but he had vanished over a year ago, and her father had proclaimed him dead.

 

Helaran knew more than the advisors.  The speculation on my part is that he knew more because he was next in line, and that to some degree he was being groomed to follow after his father, and allied with the Ghostbloods for the sake of his family (his siblings), regardless of his personal feelings on his father's plans.  Shardlet's speculation is that the Ghostbloods killed off Helaran outright, which works, but which I'm not fond of.  It's more useful to forge a link between Shallan, Amaram, and Kaladin by using Helaran than some random Veden.  Like this, we will have Amaram being immediately suspicious and distrustful of Shallan when he meets her on the Shattered Plains.  (From the forum Q&A: Amaram found out the identity of the Shardbearer.)  And it's something to spring on Shallan when she starts trusting and working with the Kholinars, Kaladin, and the Bridge 4 crew.  Not that she has any room to be critical of others when it comes to killing people in her family...

[Moogle]

Helaran knew more than the advisors.  The speculation on my part is that he knew more because he was next in line, and that to some degree he was being groomed to follow after his father, and allied with the Ghostbloods for the sake of his family (his siblings), regardless of his personal feelings on his father's plans.

 

That's interesting speculation, but I'm still not comfortable with it. Shallan's father seems to not have been the type to care about his family at all. He ran an abusive household, and I just can't see him letting Helaran in on any of his plans unless Helaran showed himself to be a loyal Ghostblood and/or a supporter of the plans in question.

[Gloom]

Well, before we make too many assumptions, I would like to remind everyone that we don't know that Helaran is dead. We know that he disappeared and was assumed dead, and we know that the Shardbearer that may have been Helaran is dead. It could be just as useful to Brandon to leave Helaran in limbo and assumed dead rather than having him killed as a nameless Shardbearer on a field of little consequence.

[Cheese Ninja]

Hmm, Moogle and I are mostly in agreement.  After all, we're the first two big proponents of the dead guy being Helaran.  Me on timewastersguide, and then Moogle on stormblessed.  Since you might have missed it: last few posts Amaram knows who it is, but when Kurkistan asked directly if it was Shallan's brother Brandon gave a "RAFO". 

 

By the way, could you vote in the poll?  Also, there's a poll I made to see who agrees with us.  A bit less than 2/3 agree, 1/3 are withholding judgement until later, and a small amount disagree completely.

 

So instead, here's something I think we can disagree on: "the source of Shallan's Shardblade."  Unlike with Helaran's Plate and Blade, I'm not sure it came from the Ghostbloods at all.  I think its history of how it ended up with her is much more complicated.  Her father almost certainly had it before her, but there's also evidence that it was the murder weapon she used on him.  There's probably a few better threads we could use for that discussion than this one.

 

Gloom: Yes, I admit Helaran could be alive, and it could have been some completely unrelated character that Kaladin killed, but I'm betting against it, heavily.  And come on, it's not "a field of little consequence", it's the set up for almost the entirety of Kaladin's character.

[Shardlet]

• Perhaps we have different definitions of what a sympathizer is, but the Ghostbloods are unknown by the vast majority of the populace, and probably a good portion of the lighteyes. How can they be sure Shallan's father will be a sympathizer? If you just mean that he's going to be indebted to the Ghostbloods and will provide favors because of it, this seems like a good motive.
• Luesh is a member of the Ghostbloods... and is acting as a steward to House Davar, one of the most unimportant Houses around? I agree the Ghostbloods likely have spies everywhere they can, but this part makes me feel uncomfortable.
• House Davar was not actually in a bad financial situation before the whole highprince-plotting began and Shallan's father took in ridiculous amounts of debt. I don't see why they would need financial backing.

 

That is exactly what I mean by sympathizer.  House Davar would not only be indebted to the Ghostbloods for his newly exalted position, but would be held potentially under threat of revelation of the illicit soulcasting

 

That House Davar is was not particularly important, sure.  but I don't think we would be justified in saying that they were one of the most unimportant.  It seems unlikely that a nearly absolutely inconsequential house would be able to make a reasonable bid for a Highprincedom.  It is possible that Luesh did not become steward until after dealings with the Ghostbloods began, but this is not the impression that I got from the info we have so far.

 

I don't think we have any evidence one way or the other for House Davar's financial situation prior to Ghostblood involvement.  We have no idea, that I am aware of, when the origin of the debts was.

 

• Why bring Helaran into this at all? Shallan's father was not particularly fond of his children at all, and he never told his advisors anything about his plans. Particularly considering that Helaran "stood up to [his] father repeatedly", I don't see why Shallan's father would bring his son into any of this. It could be that Helaran only started standing up for himself after he was brought in on the plans, but it still strikes me as odd.
• Luesh never brought Nan Balat up to speed (or else he lied to Shallan). From TWOK: "Yes, Nan Balat sent. Despite what he said, I think he must have been the one who brought the Soulcaster to Father. Luesh was involved in this, perhaps as liaison between Father and the people backing him."
• Luesh never brought up the plan to steal the Soulcaster from Jasnah. That was purely Shallan.

  "Six months ago, she had explained a desperate plan to her brothers. She would apprentice herself to Jasnah Kholin, scholar, heretic. Not for the education. Not for the prestige. But in order to learn where she kept her Soulcaster. And then Shallan would steal it."

  Luesh was told about the plan later on, however.

 

Helaran was Nan Helaran.  It is no coincidence that Balat is now Nan Balat.  The term "Nan" is a title signifying that the bearer is the heir.  Nan Helaran was the heir and would therefore need to be appraised of the plans.

 

Someone told them about the soulcaster and the plans for the use of it.  I thought it was pretty clear that this would have been Luesh since he, as you pointed out, was the one who knew how to use it.

 

The idea neither states nor implies that Luesh came up with the plan to steal Jasnah's soulcaster.   Only that Luesh was complicit in that plan.  He clearly is aware of the plan and supports it to some degree since it was well over a month (I'm pretty sure a few at least) before the enforcers came calling.  If he was not complicit, the enforcers would not have asked for the soulcaster because they would have known it was broken and they would've likely taken action to destroy or discredit the house.

 

 

• Luesh is never once described as having 'loyalties' to House Davar. None of the children even appear to feel sad at his death. I find it very hard to accept that Luesh cared at all. Here's Shallan's reaction on hearing the news:

  "Shallan, it said. This is Nan Balat; I have sent the others away. It is only Eylita and me writing you now. There is something you need to know. Luesh is dead. Shallan blinked in surprise. Luesh, her father’s steward, had been the one who had known how to use the Soulcaster. He was one of the few people she and her brothers had determined they could trust."

  Luesh did promise to tell them how the Soulcaster worked, so perhaps there's something there... but there is no mention of any affection.

• I also fail to see any divided loyalties with Luesh going forward with the plan to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster. No matter what, the Ghostbloods win if they get it. And, of course, they want Jasnah dead.

• As to Luesh's duplicity... what duplicity? He's getting someone to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster. This is a brilliant plan by Luesh (not that he ever made it). It gets the Ghostbloods a Soulcaster and harms one of their enemies. There's no cost, too, as House Davar is about to go down. No favors that need be repaid.

 

Though Luesh is not explicitly described as having loyalties to House Davar, his complicitness in their plan suggests that he very plausibly could have.  He is known to the family well enough that the Davar scions have determined that they could trust him.  This could reasonably suggest long service and/or close familiarity.  As to their emotional reaction to his death, he was after all a servant of the house.  I did not suggest that he was like a second father to them.  He may be well-liked by the Davars without the Davars breaking out into tears at the news of his death.  Besides, what is more important to the scenario is how Luesh feels, not how the Davar's feel. 

 

Whether there is duplicity or not on Luesh's part depends on how much he told the Ghostbloods about the situation.  He could be covering for the Davar's while they make their play to get a new soulcaster or he could have told them everything and the Ghostbloods are applying the right amount of pressure to make sure they don't slack off on the plan.  They could very well be making a play for the new soulcaster as you described.  That is a satisfactory alternative.  But, I don't think this is a flaw in the alternative I presented either.  Fact is, we don't have any evidence one way or the other.  Either way, it is conjecture (which of course is the entire point of this alternative scenario).  As to Luesh's death under this new alternative, as I said in the other thread, sometimes important people die suddenly and at an inconvenient time (which of course would be the case under the prevailing theory since that theory does not even attempt to provide a reason for Luesh's death).

 

To further elucidate on Helaran's position as heir.  Most cultures, the firstborn male is the heir.  Veden culture seems to closely approximate Alethi social and government orders and custioms.  Under this rationale, Helaran had to be the heir since he was the oldest.  To appoint a younger son in his stead would likely be socially unacceptable and would likely frustrate any ascension plans.  They likely had to at least try and bring him in on the plans, Ghostblood or not.

Once again, I do not discount or even disagree with the prevailing theory.  I think I voted with the 1/3 (I might even have originally voted with the 2/3, I don't recall).  I am merely seeking to point out that there are plausible alternatives and therefore the theory should not be considered to be confirmed.  This whole thread is merely a plausible yarn which Moogle has admitted to be at least mostly the case.  I have no desire to convince people that this is a better theory.  I don't even present this idea as a theory.  I just think it is a plausible and fun alternative scenario.

 

[Gloom]

I'd concur that you can respect a person well enough to trust them in a sensitive matter without having an emotional attachment to that person. We don't know what Luesh reported to his masters, or what his reasons for withholding information from them may have been. It's possible that Luesh was an advocate for the House Davar operation from the outset, and had more at stake in its success than we are aware of.

 

We know assassins are at play in the world of high level politics, so it's always possible that the opposition, perhaps even Amaram found out enough information to implicate Luesh and have him removed. Enough time had passed by then to discover who was behind the Shardbearer, and how they were connected to the plot on Amarams life by the time Luesh mysteriously died.

 

Where you're losing me, is here. Nan Helaran was, despite his vocal opposition to his father, brought in on the plan and coerced into joining the Ghostbloods so far that he was allegedly considered trustworthy enough to be loaned a set of Shards to kill Amaram in a border dispute. But after his disappearance and declared death, his brother, now Nan Balat, was kept in the dark. If it was so important for Nan Helaran to know what was going on why wasn't it important for the new heir apparent to know what was going on?

[Gloom]

As far as the field upon which the Shardbearer fell...

 

It was a field of little consequence. A minor border dispute between two neighboring fiefs. Yes, some important events unfolded upon that field, but the battle itself is only a footnote to the Alethi. It only reached the high status of footnote because alegedly Amaram killed a Shardbearer and claimed his Shards. If not for that, it would be completely inconsequential to society as a whole.

 

Now, I may have gotten a bit twisted in the post above so let me clarify.

 

If Shallans father didn't inform Helaran, how did he get mixed up with the Ghostbloods in the first place.

 

If Shallans father did inform Helaran, and Helaran was involved with their plans, why didn't he later involve Nan Balat? About a year passed between Helarans disappearance and Shallans fathers death.

 

There is always the possibility that the Ghostbloods actually approached Helaran, and that Helaran involved his father and brought Luesh in as well I suppose.

[Shardlet]

I think what Moogle and Cheese's position is, is that although Nan Helaran fought with his father some, he was on board with the plan and was himself a Ghostblood.

 

According to the Alternative, neither Helaran or his father are necessarily Ghostbloods (likely not) and Helaran rejected his father's plans or at least key aspects of it and was ended as a result.  As for why Nan Balat was not brought on board in the last year, it is clear that he is somewhat unstable.  Also, his father (and the Ghostblood conspirators) would be more careful before bringing in the new heir after Helaran's rejection and elimination.

[Gloom]

I see both of these hypotheses as viable.

 

The Helaran is the Shardbearer idea could lead to some potential drama as Kaladin and Shallan are slated to be venturing onto the Shattered Plains together in WoR if I remember the cover blurb correctly. This isn't something I'd expect Shallan to be eager to get mixed up in regardless of what she may find as a result. It offers conservation of characters and keeps things tidy while potentially increasing tensions between the characters. We know how much Brandon likes his tension.

 

The Helaran as a victim idea appeals to me though. Rarely is life so tidy as the idea above. The likelihood of Nan Helaran being the Shardbearer that Kaladin killed is to much of a coincidence for me. I won't say it's wrong, because the evidence is strangely compelling, but the odds of a coincidence like this occurring are staggeringly bad. To me it contracts the world from a vast super pangea to a small town atmosphere where everyone knows one another.

 

If it turns out that Shallan realizes her brother is dead because Amaram is wearing her brothers Shards, I'm going to write Brandon a mean letter.

[Oudeis]

It was a field of little consequence. A minor border dispute between two neighboring fiefs

 

That we know of.

[11thorderknight]

I think at this point, with the evidence we have, Nan Helaran could have been the Sharbearer, or not...either scenario is equally plausible. But I think there's a few points that people haven't seemed to consider so far in this discussion, so I'd like to bring them up.

 

1. The Shardbearer most likely had a tattoo or pendant identifying him as a Ghostblood, since all the others we've seen so far have had them, and since Amaram pretty clearly knew his affiliation. If Helaran had such an item, I think his father would have had one as well, and no mention is ever made of finding such upon his death.

 

2. Where would the Blade and Plate have come from? Yes, the Ghostbloods would have provided it, I realize that. But why at this point, and why to Helaran? They're bankrolling his father with the Soulcaster in order to later use him as a political puppet, but they can put that Plate and Blade on anyone and send them into battle incognito. On the other hand, giving Helaran Shards could be very problematic, for two reasons: it lessens their control over House Davar by making their heir pretty much invincible, and it raises questions about where he got Shards. Remember....you can hide a Blade, as long as you don't use it much, but you can't hide Plate, not even in the boonies of Jah Keved. 

 

3. It's true that the Chekhov's Gun rule would favor Helaran being the Shardbearer. However, it's also true that characters who disappear and are "declared dead" at the start of a 10 book series have a habit of reappearing. It's quite possible that Shallan's father only got in with the Ghostbloods relatively recently and kept all his kids in the dark, including Helaran. When Helaran found out, he could realized that if he wasn't down with the plan, it would be in the interests of his health to disappear....and he did. The phrase "declared dead" seems somewhat metaphorical to me, as in "He's dead to me" (i.e. we don't talk to him and/or about him ever again in this house). 

 

4. If the Ghostbloods gave House Davar Shards, why wouldn't Lord Davar have used them himself? He would have been just as anonymous, and in full Shardgear, would have been just as effective as his younger son. He doesn't sound like the kind of guy that would have trusted his heir with Shards in the first place.

 

5. Even discounting Shallan's Blade, having Helaran be the Shardbearer would mean that the Ghostbloods had given House Davar a major Soulcaster, a Blade, and Plate. That's several kings ransoms right there, and it's enough to make a guy like Lord Davar feel secure enough to seriously reconsider how obedient he's gonna be to the Ghostbloods. After all, what are they or anyone else gonna do to him?

[hoser]

I think at this point, with the evidence we have, Nan Helaran could have been the Sharbearer, or not...either scenario is equally plausible. But I think there's a few points that people haven't seemed to consider so far in this discussion, so I'd like to bring them up.

 

1. The Shardbearer most likely had a tattoo or pendant identifying him as a Ghostblood, since all the others we've seen so far have had them, and since Amaram pretty clearly knew his affiliation. If Helaran had such an item, I think his father would have had one as well, and no mention is ever made of finding such upon his death.

 

2. Where would the Blade and Plate have come from? Yes, the Ghostbloods would have provided it, I realize that. But why at this point, and why to Helaran? They're bankrolling his father with the Soulcaster in order to later use him as a political puppet, but they can put that Plate and Blade on anyone and send them into battle incognito. On the other hand, giving Helaran Shards could be very problematic, for two reasons: it lessens their control over House Davar by making their heir pretty much invincible, and it raises questions about where he got Shards. Remember....you can hide a Blade, as long as you don't use it much, but you can't hide Plate, not even in the boonies of Jah Keved. 

Why not Helaran?  You make sure he is committed and the family's future is already tied to you anyway. 

4. If the Ghostbloods gave House Davar Shards, why wouldn't Lord Davar have used them himself? He would have been just as anonymous, and in full Shardgear, would have been just as effective as his younger son. He doesn't sound like the kind of guy that would have trusted his heir with Shards in the first place.

He's probably busier, so a mysterious trip is not that easy to arrange.  This also ties the whole family to the Ghostbloods.

5. Even discounting Shallan's Blade, having Helaran be the Shardbearer would mean that the Ghostbloods had given House Davar a major Soulcaster, a Blade, and Plate. That's several kings ransoms right there, and it's enough to make a guy like Lord Davar feel secure enough to seriously reconsider how obedient he's gonna be to the Ghostbloods. After all, what are they or anyone else gonna do to him?

He has alienated many in his bid to become Highprince.  He has sold off fake quarries that he has created with his Ghostblood ally Luesh.  He is basically all in on becoming Highprince.  If he wanted to be secure, he would have stayed as a minor rural house.  Betraying the Ghostbloods at this point would invite retribution and mean giving up on his plans.  It's not like he enjoyed hanging out w/his family.  He knows they are deadly and seem to have plenty of shardblades.  The Ghostbloods could even outfit Nan Heleran in Alethkar, leaving his family as virtual hostages (assuming they don't know about the other Shardblade). 

[Gloom]

3. It's true that the Chekhov's Gun rule would favor Helaran being the Shardbearer. However, it's also true that characters who disappear and are "declared dead" at the start of a 10 book series have a habit of reappearing. It's quite possible that Shallan's father only got in with the Ghostbloods relatively recently and kept all his kids in the dark, including Helaran. When Helaran found out, he could realized that if he wasn't down with the plan, it would be in the interests of his health to disappear....and he did. The phrase "declared dead" seems somewhat metaphorical to me, as in "He's dead to me" (i.e. we don't talk to him and/or about him ever again in this house).

 

I brought this up earlier and it was passed over without comment.

 

I agree that their is little reason to write Helaran off so quickly. WoR is Shallans book. I wouldn't be surprised if Helaran chose to find his fortune on the Shattered Plains rather than get mixed up in his fathers delusions of grandeur. His appearance and interaction with Shallan would be a perfect way to introduce flashback scenes for her. His ability to interfere with her plans would be an excellent way to introduce conflict as well. Especially once he realizes that their father is dead and he is now the heir apparent of House Davar.

[Looter]

Why not Helaran?  You make sure he is committed and the family's future is already tied to you anyway. 

He's probably busier, so a mysterious trip is not that easy to arrange.  This also ties the whole family to the Ghostbloods.

He has alienated many in his bid to become Highprince.  He has sold off fake quarries that he has created with his Ghostblood ally Luesh.  He is basically all in on becoming Highprince.  If he wanted to be secure, he would have stayed as a minor rural house.  Betraying the Ghostbloods at this point would invite retribution and mean giving up on his plans.  It's not like he enjoyed hanging out w/his family.  He knows they are deadly and seem to have plenty of shardblades.  The Ghostbloods could even outfit Nan Heleran in Alethkar, leaving his family as virtual hostages (assuming they don't know about the other Shardblade). 

Well there is also the reasons the now recently deceased king of jah keved had for concealing his own ownership of at least a shard blade. This could be in response to other events in Roshar. I don't doubt there are many hidden blades and sets of plate around that the guestbooks or another faction may be able to use in recovery operations should they be needed.for a situation like the loyalty of a king such a thing may be worth it.

[Shardlet]

 He has sold off fake quarries that he has created with his Ghostblood ally Luesh. 

 

Why do you think the quarries are fake and he sold them off.  IIRC, it was said that they used the soulcasters to create valuable mineral deposits.  I really don't think there is any kind of evidence for selling off quarries which only have a veneer of valuable minerals.  This would be the height of foolishnes.  Such a ruse could not go without discovery and when it did, Davar would be eviscerated.

 

 

...that the guestbooks or another faction...

 

Got to love autocomplete  .

Edited October 2, 2013 by Shardlet

[hoser]

Why do you think the quarries are fake and he sold them off.  IIRC, it was said that they used the soulcasters to create valuable mineral deposits.  I really don't think there is any kind of evidence for selling off quarries which only have a veneer of valuable minerals.  This would be the height of foolishnes.  Such a ruse could not go without discovery and when it did, Davar would be eviscerated.

When I read the last 4 paragraphs of Chapter 3, the point is clear.  However he monetized the fake quarries, once he died and the Soulcaster stopped working, they are bankrupt. 

 

If he had survived with an intact Soulcaster, the risks would have been minimal, as he could create more resources w/the Soulcaster or from being highprince. 

 

What am I missing?

[Moogle]

The problem is that Shardlet thinks 'fake quarries' don't have real minerals and so aren't valuable, while hoser thinks 'fake quarries' just means they're not natural because they were Soulcast. Just a definition mismatch!

 

I also am pretty much positive Helaran is dead. Yes, it's a 10 book series, but Shallan's father literally said he's dead. He didn't say "he's dead to me". I'm positive Kaladin killed him, but it is somewhat plausible that the Ghostbloods offed him. I don't think it's plausible at all to say he's still alive.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Moogle

[hoser]

Actually, I think they are fake quarries, because the surface deposits don't represent the deeper vein that they would normally represent, so however they were monetized was likely fraudulent and w/o the Soulcaster, unsustainable. 

[Gloom]

I also am pretty much positive Helaran is dead. Yes, it's a 10 book series, but Shallan's father literally said he's dead. He didn't say "he's dead to me". I'm positive Kaladin killed him, but it is somewhat plausible that the Ghostbloods offed him. I don't think it's plausible at all to say he's still alive.

 

You're positive that Kaladin killed Helaran based on the fact that he died around or before the Shadrbearer did? You're certain of this because the Shardbearer was a warrior from Jah Keved and happened to be a Ghostblood?

 

The information we have on Helaran's death is second hand and without a single shred of evidence to support it. No body, no expert witness, just one persons word and Helaran's continued absence, and that persons character was reputed to be of an unsavory nature. What do we know of Shallan's Father? Nothing, but we've been led to believe he was a bully and a schemer who sought the crown of Jah Keved and would ally himself with other unsavory characters to achieve his ends. This doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that he's a trustworthy source of information. We at least have a basis upon which to make our own observations about the kind of man that Shallan's father was by looking at his children, which appear to all be broken in some way.

 

I won't argue that it's impossible that Kaladin killed Helaran, but I'm certainly not certain of the fact, and I don't trust second hand information as if it were gospel. For all we know, Shallan incorrectly remembered her fathers words, or her father had reason to lie.