Windspren, Honorspren, and Sylphrena

[Gloom]

"A name," the windspren said, walking through the air to stand beside his face. She was in the shape of a young woman, complete with flowing skirt and delicate feet. "Sylphrena."

"Sylphrena," Kaladin repeated, trying on the sandals.

"Syl," the spirit said. She cocked her head. "That's amusing. It appears I have a nickname."

 

"People are discord," Syl said.

"What does that mean?"

"You all act differently and think differently. Nothing else is like that-animals act alike, and all spren are, in a sense, virtually the same individual. There's harmony in that. But not in you-it seems that no two of you can agree on anything. All the world does as it is supposed to, except for humans. Maybe that's why you so often want to kill each other."

"But not all windspren act alike," Kaladin said, opening the box and tucking some of the bandages into the pocket he'd sewn into the inside of his leather vest. "You're proof of that."

"I know," she said softly. "Maybe now you can see why it bothers me so."

 

In the above quotes, Sylphrena has been an unreliable narrator. She never lies, but she never contradicts Kaladin unless she knows he is wrong. Sylphrena hasn't once that I can find ever referred to herself as windspren.

 

Something occurred to Kaladin. Something, perhaps, he should have asked long ago. "You're not a windspren are you?"

She hesitated, then shook her head. "No."

"What are you, then?"

"I don't know. I bind things."

 

"And why," Syl repeated, "must you get rid of it? Kaladin, you've heard the stories. Men who walked on walls, men who bound the storms to them. Windrunners. Why would you want to be rid of something like this?"

 

"I bind things, Kaladin," she said, turning and meeting his eyes. "I am honorspren. Spirit of oaths. Of promises. And of nobility."

 

I've seen Sylphrena referred to as a windspren time and time again. We know better of course, we know she is honorspren, but still we assume she is or was windspren. I don't see any actual evidence to support this, and in fact see quite a bit of evidence that is contradictory.

 

It is an assumption of Kaladins that Sylphrena accepts because at the time even she doesn't know any different. Windspren are common, seeing windspren is no momentous occasion. Windspren ride the storms, and are seen frequently enough riding breezes that they aren't generally worthy of comment. Honorspren are a rarer breed. Sylphrena doesn't lie. She said herself that she is not windspren.

[Isomere]

I suspect Honor and Cultivation poured their investiture into spren from each of the 10 basic elements. Once altered they became Honorspren or Cultivationspren depending on who put in the most investiture, but they should still retain some of the fundamental aspects of their original form.

[Crysanja]

there is another way - i agree its unlikely, but

Sylphrena could be a windspren which wishes to be a honor spren.

or there are no honor spren at all, and spren wish to be thouse.

[hoser]

I am not sure what you want, Gloom, so I don't know what constitutes a positive contribution to your thread. 

 

Here goes nothing.

1. Syl's ability to bond w/Kaladin and give him powers, personality and communication seem extraordinary.  So I deduce she has a Shardic investment. 
2. She dislikes lying and wants Kaladin to save people, so I deduce she is an honorspren as she says, particularly since Nohadon claims they exist.  Her shardic investment is presumably from Honor or both Honor and Cultivation. 
3. The shardic investment means she could have a splinter associated with her. 
4. Nohadon referred to honorspren and he predated the heralds quitting.  There is WOB that the almighty was still around when the heralds quit.  Thus if she has a splinter of Honor, it is a voluntary splinter provided by Honor. 
5. Since I believe the Cryptics are also bonding spren, it is interesting to contrast her to them.  She seems to have a physical and spiritual side, but is lacking cognitively without the bond.  Where they seem to be cognitively strong with or without the bond, but don't manipulate their physical and gravitational (part of spiritual) sides like she does. 
6. Given the contrast with the Cryptics and her behavior, one type of honorspren could be windspren given particular Shardic investment. 
7. Following this pattern, maybe all bonding spren are mundane spren enhanced with Shardic investment. 

Interesting follow-on questions

• What is the base spren of the Cryptics?  Apparently not creationspren, because they don't change their appearance freely. 
• Assuming that there are 10 different bonding spren types, which consider themselves/are considered honorspren?

[Aethling]

I think we are forgetting the basis for the Windspren issue was a mistake on the part of Kaladin.  He thought she was a Windspren, but he was wrong.

 

The reason she doesn't contradict him earlier is that she grows more powerful the longer they are together.  Part of the power gain is that she gets memories back.

[hoser]

I think we are forgetting the basis for the Windspren issue was a mistake on the part of Kaladin.  He thought she was a Windspren, but he was wrong.

 

The reason she doesn't contradict him earlier is that she grows more powerful the longer they are together.  Part of the power gain is that she gets memories back.

<snarky sarcasm>I don't know what we are forgetting.  Clearly you hadn't forgotten, or you wouldn't be reminding us .  I hadn't forgotten and I wrote one of the posts you seem to be responding to .  Who is left?</snarky sarcasm>

 

All kidding and snarkiness (I apologize if I hurt your feelings) aside, Syl behaves much like a windspren even with the bond.  Without the bond, presumably even more so.  It is not through forgetting Kaladin's mistake, but remembering Syl's behavior that I speculate that she may have been a windspren before taking on her Shardic investment. 

 

To what do you attribute her windspren-like behavior?  I doubt the Cryptics frolic around in highstorms. 

 

Further, it doesn't seem coincidental that the abilities Syl imparts to Kaladin involve moving around through the air, as windspren and Syl do. 

[Windrunner]

Windspren and honorspren are related, but not the same thing.

THEFINISHER4EVER
Are all wind spren really just unbonded honor spren?

BRANDON SANDERSON
No, they are cousins to one another, but not exactly the same thing.
Source

Honestly, I'm kind of confused about what this topic is discussing. Personally, I haven't seen too much in the way of people assuming that Syl is or used to be a windspren. Perhaps I haven't been paying enough attention to the discussions of late.

[Gloom]

Syl's ability to bond w/Kaladin and give him powers, personality and communication seem extraordinary.  So I deduce she has a Shardic investment. 

 

I would agree with this, though I doubt that this is a result of Honor splintering. I believe that Honorspren and Cultivationspren existed prior to the splintering. Tanavast had difficulty showing future events, and the events of the Recreance were clear. This leads me to believe that Tanavast was still alive at that time, so bondingspren would have existed prior to his death.

 

She dislikes lying and wants Kaladin to save people, so I deduce she is an honorspren as she says, particularly since Nohadon claims they exist.  Her shardic investment is presumably from Honor or both Honor and Cultivation. 

 

I don't believe she is capable of lying. She finds bartering to be a shady practice. She doesn't even like when Kaladin lies to instill hope in a hopeless situation. She is capable of withholding the truth, but that is a different topic entirely.

 

The shardic investment means she could have a splinter associated with her. 

 

 I won't discount this possibility. Her timing in choosing to resurrect the Radiants is a little to convenient for this to be pure happenstance.

 

Nohadon referred to honorspren and he predated the heralds quitting.  There is WOB that the almighty was still around when the heralds quit.  Thus if she has a splinter of Honor, it is a voluntary splinter provided by Honor. 

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

Since I believe the Cryptics are also bonding spren, it is interesting to contrast her to them.  She seems to have a physical and spiritual side, but is lacking cognitively without the bond.  Where they seem to be cognitively strong with or without the bond, but don't manipulate their physical and gravitational (part of spiritual) sides like she does.

 

Given the contrast with the Cryptics and her behavior, one type of honorspren could be windspren given particular Shardic investment.

 

I believe what we are seeing here is Sylphrena, a pure, or nearly pure, bonding Honorspren, contrasted to the Cryptics, which are pure, or nearly pure, bonding Cultivationspren. I think this was done to contrast how different bonding spren can be.

 

• Assuming that there are 10 different bonding spren types, which consider themselves/are considered honorspren?

 

I think the assumption that all ten spren types are of honor is unlikely. I would assume that one spren type is entirely of Honor, and one spren type is entirely of Cultivation. The other eight are derived from a combination of Honor and Cultivation. I don't think that Odium spren exist. Odium corrupts existing spren instead.

 

To be honest, the only thing I wanted to do with this thread was clear up what Sylphrena is.

[Aethling]

All of her "windspren" likenesses can be attributed to the loss of intellect.  Seems more like a common primitive state.  We see virtually the same thing happening with Seons when their "owner" is taken.  Mistborn has the Koloss that become more aware.  Elantris has the Seons that crack, Warbreaker could be argued that the lifeless manifestations are a flipside (but that is a hard one), even Rithmatists has the wild chalklings.

[Moogle]

I think the assumption that all ten spren types are of honor is unlikely. I would assume that one spren type is entirely of Honor, and one spren type is entirely of Cultivation. The other eight are derived from a combination of Honor and Cultivation. I don't think that Odium spren exist. Odium corrupts existing spren instead.

Shallan mentions something about "dreaded nightspren" at some point, and Kaladin sees deathspren. Would you say that either/both are of Cultivation/Honor? Do you think they're of Odium? Something else?

 

At a guess, I'd say that no spren were created by a specific Shard, and that they aren't only found on Roshar. The highstorms/Stormlight just reveal them. As for honorspren/cultivationspren (if they exist), I would guess that some were repurposed by Honor and Cultivation to be able to form the Nahel bond. I have little to no evidence to support this, however.

[Gloom]

Shallan mentions something about "dreaded nightspren" at some point, and Kaladin sees deathspren. Would you say that either/both are of Cultivation/Honor? Do you think they're of Odium? Something else?

 

At a guess, I'd say that no spren were created by a specific Shard, and that they aren't only found on Roshar. The highstorms/Stormlight just reveal them. As for honorspren/cultivationspren (if they exist), I would guess that some were repurposed by Honor and Cultivation to be able to form the Nahel bond. I have little to no evidence to support this, however.

 

First let me say this is pure speculation. I have no sources to confirm this.

 

I think nightspren are spren that have been corrupted by Odium. This is why we haven't seen any nightspren yet. I believe that as the Desolation becomes more of a reality, we will begin to see nightspren. I would place deathspren with cultivation. Cultivation is about the cycle of life, about encouraging life in some areas, and culling life in others. In layman's terms, weeding the garden is an example of cultivation. Deathspren would feel right at home in her portfolio.

 

I believe that bonding spren are spren that have been invested by Honor and Cultivation. I also believe that spren are native to Roshar, if not entirely unique to Roshar. We see rainspren during weepings, and other spren types can be seen at odd times.

 

I've got a tenuous theory about spren being strongest over bare stone, which would explain why they are virtually unheard of in Shinovar and would help explain their odd beliefs in regards to why it is sacred. This theory has a lot of holes in it. Cusicesh the Protector being one of the largest ones.

[Shardlet]

My current perception of spren is that they are splinters.  The spren which are spren which act (i.e., Syl, cryptics, cusicesh, greatshell spren, etc.), that is to say make a clear effect or change in the physical, are voluntary splinters created by Honor, Cultivation, or some combination of the two.  The spren which simply respond or attracted to some phenomenon (i.e., flamespren, windspren, lifespren, poopspren  ) are involuntary splinters of honor.  I look forward to more from Axies, Syl, and the cryptics (another Rosharan band?) for more spren info.

[junior]

Since I believe the Cryptics are also bonding spren, it is interesting to contrast her to them.  She seems to have a physical and spiritual side, but is lacking cognitively without the bond.  Where they seem to be cognitively strong with or without the bond, but don't manipulate their physical and gravitational (part of spiritual) sides like she does. 

 

Cryptics do have an actual physical presence, however.  Shallan apparently manages to touch one when she has her freak-out in her room after first noticing them (in the same scene in which she starts to count ten heart beats).  She has to close her eyes to do it (which might be important in and of itself), but she does appear to touch one.