Keepers and Mistborn

[11thorderknight]

I got the implication in Alloy of Law that Harmony, at the time of the Founding, changed the bloodlines of all the existing allomancers to make it such that from that point on, there would be no more Mistborn, only Mistings. Even though it's not stated directly, it seems pretty clear, because although many Mistborn would have died during the years of WoA/HoA, some would have surely survived if they bothered to lay low. I mean, they have a pretty strong survival advantage. And even if they didn't, we know that in the Final Empire, even though allomancy in general was getting weaker in the population, Mistborn would still be born, often to parents that weren't even allomancers themselves, as long as they were nobility. I mean, look at Vin herself.

 

Also, we know that many of the Mistings in AoL were descended from Spook, so he presumably had several kids, and he was made into an original Mistborn by Harmony. For perspective, the ten original Mistborn made by Rashek provided the heritage for all the allomancers for a thousand years. How is it that not a single one of Spook's descendants is a full Mistborn? It seems pretty clear to me that Harmony tampered with things to make Mistborn go away.

 

So - that brings me to the Keepers. We know that, even though many/most were killed by the Inquisitors, some must have survived, and in any case, once again we know from Rashek's time that the trait will pop up in Terris children even if their parents don't have it themselves. We also know that Harmony did something here, as well, since in the Final Empire Ferrings did not exist; you were either a full Keeper, or nothing. But did Harmony eliminate the potential for Keepers during the Founding the way he did for Mistborn, or is it simply that they are rare and keep to themselves? If so, is it the interbreeding with allomantic bloodlines that makes people into Ferrings rather than Keepers? Might it be possible to be a Keeper and a Misting at the same time? (We know Wax doesn't think so, but he could be wrong).

 

PS - for purposes of this thread, I'm defining "Keeper" as a feruchemist with access to all 16 of the metals, rather than a Ferring who only has access to one; analogous to Mistborn and Misting.

[WeiryWriter]

This is a fairly well thought out theory but there is some information you seem to be misinformed about, namely Spook.  Sazed did not make him a lerasium mistborn but rather an average mistborn form the fall of the Final Empire.  The vast majority of the other mistborn were killed during the wars following the Collapse and I don't think any made it into the storage caches (though I'm not sure about that).  You are right about Spook having a lot of children, he had like twelve I think.

 

It has also been confirmed that feruchemy fractured as a result of the mixing of allomantic and feruchemical genes.

[DocHoliday]

I hadn't heard that Ferrings were a result of mixing Alomantic genes. Why would TLR stamp out Keepers if interbreeding would weaken it in the long run. I mean the possibility of a Compounder arising is one thing, but d even a whole mass of Twinborns wouldn't hold a candle to the threat of a Keeper, from an Empiracle view.

 

TLR held the power of Preservation unchecked and fiddled with human genetics, so I don't think he was ignorant of this.

[king of nowhere]

I also, when reading that there were no mistborn or keepers in AoL, thought Sazed did it to prevent the rising of someone else like the lord ruler who could abuse his power. Someone like miles is already dangerous enough..

However, brandon said that it was caused by the mixing of genes, and if the present day trilogy involves a rogue mistborn, then it means there was no divine intervention to split the powers. As unlikely as it seems, no new mistborn or keepers were born, even if the genetic potential was still present in the population. Yes, not very likely, even if spook was "only" a regular mistborn (his wife also was a coinshot, and if they had a dozen sons...)

So I still like the idea that while the genetic splitting played a role, Sazed also saw fit to interfere. BUt did so in a way that still left room open for making a new mistborn eventually, maybe because he didn't think it through enough, or maybe because he didn't want to meddle too much.

[11thorderknight]

So, if it is the mixing in of allomantic genes that fractures feruchemy, that implies even more that there would be Keepers among the purebred Terris population. I kind of like that theory - we have a people that's accustomed to hiding and working to preserve the Keeper's powers in their bloodlines. Now, they're all of a sudden free from oppression. Undoubtedly, a large number fade into the general population, interbreed, and produce ferrings and twinborn. But, a small group cling to the old ways, continue to live in secrecy, and produce/train a new generation of Keepers, who continue to hide their abilities. And the Ars Arcanum implies that the Terris are still exploring the abilities granted by the new metals. 

 

I like it.

[Shardlet]

Don't forget that there is still lerasium out there in the world.  The nuggets that TLR gave out and the Hoid nugget and Elend nugget were not the only lerasium in the world.

[Isomere]

I could see the end results of the breeding program in AoL producing mistborn in a couple hundred years. Brandon even hints there may be full mistborn and feruchemists during the time of AoL in this quote:

 

But anyway, you can have one Allomantic and one Feruchemical [power]. But not a lot of Mistborn and not a lot of full Feruchemists anymore.

QUESTION

Do you explain how the Feruchemists came back, because at the end there were a lot of eunuchs and...

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, well, that's one of the reasons why Feruchemy has been split because it's very diluted now. The Terris people did survive because they made it. And so, the genetic code is there.

QUESTIONER

And so, every once in a while, hereditarily, the gene will come up.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Yeah. But that's why there aren't very many full-blooded Feruchemists anymore. A thousand years of the Lord Ruler trying to breed it out of the population followed by a cataclysm that destroyed most of the population of the world did them in, yeah. source

Edited July 16, 2013 by Isomere

[11thorderknight]

So, that's basically Word of Brandon confirmation of what I was thinking - there ARE full feruchemists out there, they're probably just laying low.

[Jaaaaaade]

I hadn't heard that Ferrings were a result of mixing Alomantic genes. Why would TLR stamp out Keepers if interbreeding would weaken it in the long run. I mean the possibility of a Compounder arising is one thing, but d even a whole mass of Twinborns wouldn't hold a candle to the threat of a Keeper, from an Empiracle view.

 

TLR held the power of Preservation unchecked and fiddled with human genetics, so I don't think he was ignorant of this.

 

Compunding was the most dangerous thing of all to let out, besides maybe Hemalurgy. To him, stamping out Feruchemists wasn't nearly as important as keeping track of them and ensuring that they never mixed with Allomancy. If word got out of that kind of power, that people could be born with simialar powers as TLR himself, then they would want to experiment with it. 

[DocHoliday]

LoL WoB trumps anything I have to say.

[Jaaaaaade]

LoL WoB trumps anything I have to say.

Don't worry I'm not certain. Although any moment now someone's going to jump in with the appropriate interview quote.

[aeromancer]

I spoke with a friend about this, and he says he asked Brandon about dilution of Mistborns in AoL. His question was "There were still full Mistborns at the end of HoA, and people claim to be descended in AoL?" Brandon: "They claim to be descended."

 

I don't have a source besides this friend of mine.

[DocHoliday]

I spoke with a friend about this, and he says he asked Brandon about dilution of Mistborns in AoL. His question was "There were still full Mistborns at the end of HoA, and people claim to be descended in AoL?" Brandon: "They claim to be descended."

 

I don't have a source besides this friend of mine.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Spook had something like 12 kids? 12 kids had no kids? I'm sure that there is some measure of questionability about who is really descended from Spook, but that there is no-one? BS is toyng with us Id say.

[aeromancer]

Brandon never toys. Ever.

 

(Okay, maybe not. But still, this is Word of Brandon.)

[Shardlet]

Yeah, but recall, Sazed made Spook a mistborn.  It doesn't seem too farfetched that he could have made this non-hereditary (in Spook's case).  I expect he could also have then manipulated the system such that there could only be ferrings, mistings and twinborn.  But, since the second trilogy is supposed to involve a rogue mistborn, I suspect this is not the case.  Unless Harmony changed his mind.

[Windborne Sword]

Yeah, but recall, Sazed made Spook a mistborn.  It doesn't seem too farfetched that he could have made this non-hereditary (in Spook's case).  I expect he could also have then manipulated the system such that there could only be ferrings, mistings and twinborn.  But, since the second trilogy is supposed to involve a rogue mistborn, I suspect this is not the case.  Unless Harmony changed his mind.

 

I like the idea that Sazed messed around and made it so there were no Mistborn or full Feruchemists, maybe Sazed wanted the people to become more accustomed to mistings and ferrings and twinborn before reintroducing full Mistborn and full Feruchemists back into the mix. Most of the people who survived the Final Ascension were just plain old Skaa after all. They didn't know what a Mistborn could do, and if someone was to go power-crazy it could wipe out the rest of humanity. 

[DocHoliday]

Brandon never toys. Ever.

 

(Okay, maybe not. But still, this is Word of Brandon.)

I'm not implying that he's lying, just that what he said can be interpreted different ways. Something he loves too do.

[aeromancer]

Yeah, but recall, Sazed made Spook a mistborn.  It doesn't seem too farfetched that he could have made this non-hereditary (in Spook's case).  I expect he could also have then manipulated the system such that there could only be ferrings, mistings and twinborn.  But, since the second trilogy is supposed to involve a rogue mistborn, I suspect this is not the case.  Unless Harmony changed his mind.

 

The second trilogy has a rogue Mistborn?

Isn't that Marsh/Ironeyes?

Edited July 23, 2013 by aeromancer

[Windborne Sword]

The second trilogy has a rogue Mistborn?

Isn't that Marsh/Ironeyes?

 

We don't know that for sure, and Marsh doesn't seem to be going around murdering people during the Alloy of Law. WoB has said that the plot of the second trilogy will be revolve around a SWAT-like team of Mistings who are going after a rogue Mistborn. That's all we know about the plot of the second trilogy so far really.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Windborne Sword

[Shardlet]

He wouldn't technically be a proper mistborn. 

He gets all his powers (with the exception of seeking) from hemalurgy.

  Besides, I doubt he is going to go all serial killer.

 

Edit: ninja'd by Windborn.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Shardlet

[Windborne Sword]

He wouldn't technically be a proper mistborn. 

He gets all his powers (with the exception of seeking) from hemalurgy.

  Besides, I doubt he is going to go all serial killer.

 

Edit: ninja'd by Windborn.

 

Besides we still have yet to learn anything about the Southern Hemisphere people at all. They may have full Mistborn as well, if my idea about Sazed removing Mistborn and Feruchemists from the mix is wrong though.

[WeiryWriter]

Besides we still have yet to learn anything about the Southern Hemisphere people at all. They may have full Mistborn as well, if my idea about Sazed removing Mistborn and Feruchemists from the mix is wrong though.

 

Not quite true, we know they don't use the Metallic Arts in the same way as the northerners.  Instead of the genetic way we are familiar with they use them "mechanically" but we don't really know what that means yet. 

[Random]

Brandon Sanderson has been quoted to say there will be no more mistborn in the future mistborn trilogy.  "In a future book series, Mistborn will also have become things of legend.  The bloodlines will have become diluted to the point that there are no Mistborn, only Mistings--however, the latter are far more common.   In this environment, a Nicrosil Misting could be invaluable both as an enhancer to your own team or a weapon to use against unsuspecting other Misthings."  The next series will have Nicrosil and Chromium mistings: the first will intensify another's metal while the latter will weaken them.  Ironeyes is technically a Mistborn, though I don't think he'll play an integral role: Sanderson didn't have him as a main character in AoL.

[happyman]

Brandon Sanderson has been quoted to say there will be no more mistborn in the future mistborn trilogy.  "In a future book series, Mistborn will also have become things of legend.  The bloodlines will have become diluted to the point that there are no Mistborn, only Mistings--however, the latter are far more common.   In this environment, a Nicrosil Misting could be invaluable both as an enhancer to your own team or a weapon to use against unsuspecting other Misthings."  The next series will have Nicrosil and Chromium mistings: the first will intensify another's metal while the latter will weaken them.  Ironeyes is technically a Mistborn, though I don't think he'll play an integral role: Sanderson didn't have him as a main character in AoL.

 

 

He also said, at least once that I've seen, that the protagonists of the first book will be a swat team for dealing with rogue Allomancers, and they would begin by investigating what appears to be the actions of a rogue Mistborn.  Other people in this thread have mentioned it as well.

So I don't think it's that there are no Mistborn or that they are metaphysically impossible; it's that they will have faded into legend due to circumstances.  We already see that process in Alloy of Law.  I doubt it is absolute, though.

[Vortaan]

What appear to be the actions of a rogue Mistborn could very easily be the actions of a Misting with knowledge of Hemalurgy. Think Sylar from Heroes