Shallans special skill - memories

[Crysanja]

first i thought Shallan had something like an eidetic memory, but she seems to forget memories after painting them.

so it seems not likely.

 

the old magic would be a valid way to get this skill, but i dont think she viseted.

 

 

why not the bounding of a creation spren?(or another spren)

we know she atracts more creation spren then most artists, maybe this abundance of them gives a chance to bind one..

painting a "memory" is like perfect art.

 

Shallan cant see thouse "cryptic" spren, but she can paint them with a memory.

maybe a creation spren would actualy take/hold the memory, it could propably see other spren.

 

im not sure when Shallan got her ablity, maybe she bounded the spren in her "lonely" childhood.

an immaginary friend(spren) for a lonely child? sillyness you dont speak about as an adult?

 

 

 

against this speaks that we never saw any communication between Shallan and a Spreen(except the cryptics).

or any special spren near Shallan.

maybe any kind of spren can be bound, just how usefull they are is in question.

 

 

(maybe dalinar binding a spren, would explain his visions)

Edited July 7, 2013 by Crysanja

[Phantom Monstrosity]

My personal theory is that it's related to cultivation, since she says she 'cultivates the memories on the page'.

[Morsk]

I've got two ideas.

The first is that it's a built-in Radiant power that's not a Surge, like Kaladin's following the Highstorm in a dream, or being able to hold his breath. Kaladin's order has Inhilation as the body focus, which matches the breath-holding power. If Shallan had #3 or #4 for Soul or Eyes, the memory power could fit. (It's harder to match her attributes to those orders though. Most people think she's #6.)

Another is that her mother asked the Nightwatcher for "a special child", and ended up with a curse so terrible she killed herself after giving birth. Or that dying in childbirth was the curse.

[hoser]

It seems to me that this is unique talent that dates back to childhood.  It seems to have started too early for her actions to have attracted a spren.  While the only framework I have for magical abilities is the Nahel bond with two surges and a special ability, I wonder if there is something else going on.  We have at least one other example of this: Kaladin's fighting ability seems like an innate talent.  Other possibilities include Dalinar, Adolin and Gavilar for having innate talents.  

I wonder whether there is something to the Vorin notion of a calling.  A unique ability that certain people (maybe all people) have based on their natural magical investment.  These abilties don't necessarily draw from stormlight.  Maybe this ability can be cultivated also. 

[Senor Feesh]

Hoser, I think you might have nailed it. Callings could indeed be related to Cultivation - a talent that you nurture and develop seems right on with that Intent.

[Shardlet]

Morsk's idea that Shallan's ability resulted from another person's (her mother most plausibly) Nightwatcher visit and Hoser's innate talent from Cultivation make the most sense to me.  Although the vitually unheard of nature of Shallan's ability suggests a more limited scope to me of the Cultivation idea.  It seems that with such a large population, if everyone had an innate talent from Cultivation, Shallan's particular talent would have popped up from time-to-time such that it would be remarkable but not unheard of.

 

As to the spren bonding idea, I doubt that she is presently bonded with a spren.  It seems extraordinary that the bonded spren would be entirely absent from the narrative.  So much so, that it seems incredibly implausible that it is just something that hasn't been spoken of yet.  Before anyone points to her encounters with the Cryptics, I don't see this as a bonding experience per se.  I see them more as gatekeepers so far.  Pay the toll and come on in.

[Morsk]

I've also wondered whether Vorin women tend to have mental gifts like Shallan, and men have physical gifts, so long as they follow the crazy gender restrictions. We see men have the Thrill, and I wondered if the Assuredness Movement in female scholars was their version of the Thrill, some creepy Odium aspect of the power, with the Vorin restrictions being the Honor part. And individual gifts being Cultivation.

But I agree with Shardlet that the gifts ought to be more common and notable if this is really going on.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Could be that odiummagic is unlocked by doing more and more horrific actions, and patricide is one way of unlocking the first level.

[hoser]

As to the spren bonding idea, I doubt that she is presently bonded with a spren.  It seems extraordinary that the bonded spren would be entirely absent from the narrative.  So much so, that it seems incredibly implausible that it is just something that hasn't been spoken of yet.  Before anyone points to her encounters with the Cryptics, I don't see this as a bonding experience per se.  I see them more as gatekeepers so far.  Pay the toll and come on in.

I see parallels between the Shallan/Cryptic and Kaladin/Syl relationships.  Syl was attracted to him when he was in Amaram's army.  He doesn't become aware of her as anything but an annoying windspren until nearly the end of his time as a slave.  Their relationship/bond strengthens when she starts asking him questions in chapter 2.  

The Cryptic (I am assuming that only one is talking with her although several seem present) communicates "What are you?" in chapter 42 and 45.  But the communication in chapter 70 is lengthier: 

 

You need to tell me something true, it replied.  The more true, the stronger our bond. 

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought.  I'm sure thats a truth.

That's not enough, the voice whispered.  I must know something true about you.  Tell me.  The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond.  Tell me. Tell me.  What are you?

Truths could be a payment.  OTOH I see a bond being established.  When the bond exists, the spren can link Shallan to Shadesmar.  These spren, being more cognitively associated than Syl, can remember how the process works and understand the bond more.  One proof will be whether Shallan has to keep revealing truths every time.  If there is a bond, then it should persist and she won't need to reveal a new truth every time. 

If the Cryptics don't gain cognition from Shallan, what do they gain?  Perhaps they gain on the spiritual or physical side. 

Why are there multiples?

I've also wondered whether Vorin women tend to have mental gifts like Shallan, and men have physical gifts, so long as they follow the crazy gender restrictions. We see men have the Thrill, and I wondered if the Assuredness Movement in female scholars was their version of the Thrill, some creepy Odium aspect of the power, with the Vorin restrictions being the Honor part. And individual gifts being Cultivation.

But I agree with Shardlet that the gifts ought to be more common and notable if this is really going on.

I can imagine Honor and Cultivation working together investing in their people.  Honor "honors" each person with a gift and Cultivation strengthens it when they "cultivate" it.  I can see this in the Vorin religion.  The Radiants didn't have the same restrictions.  

Overall, I see the way of Honor and Cultivation to connect (bind) people.  This is why Honor is nostalgic about the Silver Kingdoms.  I see Odium as corrupting people and creating separations.  The thrill, national divisions, provincial divisions and gender divisions seem like the way of Odium to me. 

I agree that the gifts have to be universal.  What happens to gifts that are undeveloped and undiscovered?  Moash seems to have a similar gift for fighting to Kaladin.  What if he never received training? Adolin seems to have a talent for fighting also.  Rock could have a gift for cooking, but maybe just skill.  Jasnah seems talented in many ways, she could be gifted.  Navani likewise. 

But what is Renarin's gift? Teft's? Sadeas's?  Elhokar's? Szeth seems skilled at combat.  Maybe they haven't discovered or cultivated their gifts yet. Or maybe we just don't know them well enough.  

[Shardlet]

I've also wondered whether Vorin women tend to have mental gifts like Shallan, and men have physical gifts, so long as they follow the crazy gender restrictions. We see men have the Thrill, and I wondered if the Assuredness Movement in female scholars was their version of the Thrill, some creepy Odium aspect of the power, with the Vorin restrictions being the Honor part. And individual gifts being Cultivation.

But I agree with Shardlet that the gifts ought to be more common and notable if this is really going on.

 

An interesting idea, but I feel duty bound to point out that at least most of the scholars that Jasnah and Shallan discussed in conjunction with the assuredness movement were male.

 

 

Could be that odiummagic is unlocked by doing more and more horrific actions, and patricide is one way of unlocking the first level.

 

Horrific acts could indeed be a way of accessing Odiummagic, but I think Patricide would rank a bit more than the first level.  Although Shallan could have killed her father in defense of her brother or something similar.  That Shallan feels guilt over it is clear, but people often feel guilty over actions that are actually, at least, just.

 

 

I see parallels between the Shallan/Cryptic and Kaladin/Syl relationships.  Syl was attracted to him when he was in Amaram's army.  He doesn't become aware of her as anything but an annoying windspren until nearly the end of his time as a slave.  Their relationship/bond strengthens when she starts asking him questions in chapter 2.  

The Cryptic (I am assuming that only one is talking with her although several seem present) communicates "What are you?" in chapter 42 and 45.  But the communication in chapter 70 is lengthier: 

 

Truths could be a payment.  OTOH I see a bond being established.  When the bond exists, the spren can link Shallan to Shadesmar.  These spren, being more cognitively associated than Syl, can remember how the process works and understand the bond more.  One proof will be whether Shallan has to keep revealing truths every time.  If there is a bond, then it should persist and she won't need to reveal a new truth every time. 

If the Cryptics don't gain cognition from Shallan, what do they gain?  Perhaps they gain on the spiritual or physical side. 

Why are there multiples?

 

Clearly a bond is being formed in some sense.  But, to clarify, I was speaking of a bond more in line with the Kaladin/Syl bond.  You may be absolutely correct that this is just the first beginning of the formation of such a bond.  But I am cautious about that considering the Cryptics question to Shallan which you cited.  It appears to be confused (maybe not the right word, uncertain?, puzzled?) about her nature.  Also, as you pointed out Hoser, there are several cryptics that Shallan can perceive.  I don't see any evidence yet a particular Cryptic having a peculiar interest in Shallan. 

 

This discussion also leads me to believe that either the nature of Jasnah's soulcasting is different from Shallan's or the Cryptics are not directly related to Shallan's soulcasting.  Consider, the Cryptic is confused/uncertain/puzzled about Shallan's nature, but Jasnah has soulcast many times in Karbranth and particularly in the Palanaeum. 

 

However, it could be something else about Shallan (her memory drawing ability?, her shardblade?) that evokes the question from the Cryptic.  I suspect we will find out in January.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm just spitballing here, but could easily be a threshold thing where particide would work for levels one through six, but any horrific act only gets you one level.

[hoser]

But I am cautious about that considering the Cryptics question to Shallan which you cited.  It appears to be confused (maybe not the right word, uncertain?, puzzled?) about her nature.  Also, as you pointed out Hoser, there are several cryptics that Shallan can perceive.  I don't see any evidence yet a particular Cryptic having a peculiar interest in Shallan. 

 

This discussion also leads me to believe that either the nature of Jasnah's soulcasting is different from Shallan's or the Cryptics are not directly related to Shallan's soulcasting.  Consider, the Cryptic is confused/uncertain/puzzled about Shallan's nature, but Jasnah has soulcast many times in Karbranth and particularly in the Palanaeum.

The Cryptic's repeated "What are you?" does seem odd.  It could be confusion, as you say. 

Another possibility I see is that the Cryptic (with its cognitive focus) needs her cognitive identity, how she sees herself.  When she states her feelings (afraid) and a hidden identity (murderer) it seems to be enough.  The "What" could be the Cryptic's way of focusing on identity rather than what she knows, believes or has done. 

 

Syl is very different from the Cryptic.  I assume that Jasnah is dealing with a different type of spren from either of the other two. On the model in my head, Jasnah's bond is established, so she doesn't need to reveal more of herself each time to soulcast.  

 

Venturing wildly afield, I see both of Shallan's divine attributes as cognitive (assuming Shash order).  When I assume that Jasnah is in the Palah order, I see her divine attributes as cognitive (Learned) and spiritual (Giving), so I imagine her spren will be strongly cognitive like the Cryptics, but somehow not quite as cognitive and more spiritual.  Jasnah's spren might have needed to bond with a somewhat different aspect of her. 

[Isomere]

The OP asks the question "When did Shallan bond a spren?" While no one seems to know the answer I would really love to learn more about the early stages of the spren bond. From the book it is clear that:

1. The early usage of surgebinding is instinctive and doesn't seem supernatural to the user at first.
2. The bond forms well before the human becomes aware of the spren.
3. As the bond-relationship grows the surgebinding potential increases.

Looking at Kaladin: We know the spren bond was forming in the early days he was in Amaram's army because syl has memories of those times. But how long was the bond in place before it gave Syl the ability to remember? Once again just speculations, but I'd assume it happened around the time Kaladin joined the army and started Fighting To Protect Tien. He was living the Second Oath to "Protect those that cannot protect themselves" and I believe what attracted Syl was the act of "following the path" of the Windrunner order. 

 

Now to Shallan: She has always loved to draw it seems, but it's not clear when her art took that "leap" into being supernatural. It was likely a gradual process and my speculations hold that she attracted the attention of a cryptic probably in her early adolescence and has been strengthening that bond ever since. The bond is getting much stronger now that she is consciously aware of her spren and can communicate with it. What triggered the bond? There is a lot of talk about the Divine attributes and those surely play a role, but consider also that Shallan was Using Art to Record Knowledge which could tie into the Oaths of her Order. 

[hoser]

The OP asks the question "When did Shallan bond a spren?" While no one seems to know the answer I would really love to learn more about the early stages of the spren bond. From the book it is clear that:

1. The early usage of surgebinding is instinctive and doesn't seem supernatural to the user at first.
2. The bond forms well before the human becomes aware of the spren.
3. As the bond-relationship grows the surgebinding potential increases.

Looking at Kaladin: We know the spren bond was forming in the early days he was in Amaram's army because syl has memories of those times. But how long was the bond in place before it gave Syl the ability to remember? Once again just speculations, but I'd assume it happened around the time Kaladin joined the army and started Fighting To Protect Tien. He was living the Second Oath to "Protect those that cannot protect themselves" and I believe what attracted Syl was the act of "following the path" of the Windrunner order. 

I hope I am not offending to remind you of the section from Chapter 11:

 

"I watched you, you know.  Back in that army.  You'd always find the young untrained men and protect them, even though it put you into danger.  I can remember. Just barely, but I do."

"I failed them.  They're dead now."

"They would have died more quickly without you.  You made it so they had a family in the army.  I remember their gratitude.  It's what drew me in the first place.  You helped them."

Basically confirming what you said.  Technically, Tien was already dead by that point, but it seems to me to line up with your point.  The bond formation really seems to accelerate in chapter 14, but I'm too lazy to quote the relevant passages. 

 

Now to Shallan: She has always loved to draw it seems, but it's not clear when her art took that "leap" into being supernatural. It was likely a gradual process and my speculations hold that she attracted the attention of a cryptic probably in her early adolescence and has been strengthening that bond ever since. The bond is getting much stronger now that she is consciously aware of her spren and can communicate with it. What triggered the bond? There is a lot of talk about the Divine attributes and those surely play a role, but consider also that Shallan was Using Art to Record Knowledge which could tie into the Oaths of her Order. 

The assumption here seems to be that her apparent magical skill is based on a spren bond and not a Calling.  The spren bond formed so early because she was acting Radiantly.   It certainly seems possible.  It is also interesting that Syl resembles a windspren, but the Cryptics do not resemble creationspren.  If Nahel bond spren are formed from a simpler spren and a splinter or a dragonwasp, then they might still resemble the base spren.  What would be the base spren of the Cryptic? 

[Shardlet]

 It is also interesting that Syl resembles a windspren, but the Cryptics do not resemble creationspren.  If Nahel bond spren are formed from a simpler spren and a splinter or a dragonwasp, then they might still resemble the base spren.  What would be the base spren of the Cryptic? 

 

That is assuming that the Cryptics are the spren forming a bond in conjunction with the drawing ability.  Personally, I think that the memory ability is extraneous to any spren activity (except that she makes creationspren happy  ).   I think this because she has had it for a long time and she uses it frequently.  In other words, it is not in the early stages and there is no mention of spren.

 

As to Kaladin, true, Cenn sees a warping of the air around Kaladin at the Amaram battle.  But I did not see any reasonably identifiable stormlight activity and the only surge-type activity that could be drawn from the battle is Kaladin using his knives.  Seems lashing a knife to someone as you are throwing it would sure help your aim.  So I think we can reasonable infer that at that stage, the Kal/Syl bond was in it's infancy and therefore very minor in its effect.

[Crysanja]

isnt Szeth using the powers provided by a spren? - but we never see interaction between Szeth and a spren.

 

so why would we need to see an interaction between Shallan and a spren for her memories?

 

but i think there has to be another criteria to be able to bind a creation spren, in addition to be a very/good artist.

Because lots of women are artists, sure some are good too.

her soulcasting is another reason, to have a spren bound. - soulcasting seems very artistic too.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Crysanja

[hoser]

isnt Szeth using the powers provided by a spreen? - but we never see interaction between Szeth and a spreen.

this is known from an interview:

Viper

This will probably be RAFO'd, but: Is Szeth bound to a spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No. He's not. Haha, I didn't RAFO that.

But some speculate that there is a spren trapped in Szeth's sword. 

 

Edit: nothing significant

Edited July 2, 2013 by hoser

[Meg]

The OP asks the question "When did Shallan bond a spren?" While no one seems to know the answer I would really love to learn more about the early stages of the spren bond. From the book it is clear that:

• The early usage of surgebinding is instinctive and doesn't seem supernatural to the user at first.
• The bond forms well before the human becomes aware of the spren.
• As the bond-relationship grows the surgebinding potential increases.

 

 

I apologize for partially disagreeing.

 

ad 1: Here I'm with you. 

 

Looking at Kaladin: We know the spren bond was forming in the early days he was in Amaram's army because syl has memories of those times. But how long was the bond in place before it gave Syl the ability to remember? Once again just speculations, but I'd assume it happened around the time Kaladin joined the army and started Fighting To Protect Tien. He was living the Second Oath to "Protect those that cannot protect themselves" and I believe what attracted Syl was the act of "following the path" of the Windrunner order.

 

and ad 2:

 

I disagree. I think that the "Bonding" isn't an act of a moment but a process. With Kal and Syl, I think, that process startet when Syl revealed herself to Kal (Chapter 2) and ends with him saying the Second Ideal. 

This thought is based on BS' statement that "Syl has recovered everything of her personality." (I hope, he meant that she was at that point at the end of TWoK.) and my idea that she must have gained her full personality for being a full part of the Nahel bond. 

 

Aside: I'm sure "we" see Syl the first time prior to that battle when Kal defeats the Shardbearer (when his pouch is stuck to his belt (Ch. 47)), and next when he fights to rescue Cenn (Ch. 2 and 47): 

 

Cenn thought he could see something surrounding the squadleader. A warping of the air, like the wind itself become visible. (Ch. 2) 

 

Sweat trickled from his brow, cooled by the breeze. Odd. There hadn’t been a breeze before. Now it seemed to envelop him. (Ch. 47)

 

(I dare remind you that both quotes describe the same fight, thus this happens at the same time.)

  

 

 

Now to Shallan: She has always loved to draw it seems, but it's not clear when her art took that "leap" into being supernatural. It was likely a gradual process and my speculations hold that she attracted the attention of a cryptic probably in her early adolescence and has been strengthening that bond ever since. The bond is getting much stronger now that she is consciously aware of her spren and can communicate with it. What triggered the bond? There is a lot of talk about the Divine attributes and those surely play a role, but consider also that Shallan was Using Art to Record Knowledge which could tie into the Oaths of her Order.

 

 

As for Shallan: Clining to my above idea I'm not sure whether there is already a Nahel bond between Shallan and a spren. 

 

Also I don't really see a connection between the cryptics and her painting abilities. If I understood this right, the cryptics are her "spren partners" for soulcasting, not for drawing. 

 

Otherwise Elhokar too would already be bound to a Nahel bond -- he see's the cryptics in the mirror, Shallan paints them unwittingly. 

 

Another musing: I think that not everybody on Roshar can attract a spren for a Nahel bond. One has to make the right decisions. 

 

 

PS: I seems I didn't read all posts through, so I apologizes for possibly saying something that is already said here. 

[happyman]

As for Shallan: Clining to my above idea I'm not sure whether there is already a Nahel bond between Shallan and a spren.

 

Also I don't really see a connection between the cryptics and her painting abilities. If I understood this right, the cryptics are her "spren partners" for soulcasting, not for drawing. 

 

Otherwise Elhokar too would already be bound to a Nahel bond -- he see's the cryptics in the mirror, Shallan paints them unwittingly. 

 

Another musing: I think that not everybody on Roshar can attract a spren for a Nahel bond. One has to make the right decisions. 

 

 

PS: I seems I didn't read all posts through, so I apologizes for possibly saying something that is already said here. 

 

Do you think there is a bond (Nahel or not) between Shallan and the cryptic?  The quotes hoser found strongly suggest that there is a bond between Shallan and the Cryptic.  What's more, immediately after that quote, Shallan tells the Cryptic a very strong truth indeed.  The bond, if the Cryptic is telling the truth, should be extremely strong.

In fact, if what the Cryptic says to her is true, she bonded immediately before the first time she soul-cast, when she told it she was terrified.

 

Also, you don't see a connection between the cryptic and her painting?  Her drawing is the way she sees the cryptic the first time!  That's a pretty suggestive connection.

 

Edited to add:  Also, the fact that Elhokar had begun seeing cryptics has suggested to a few people that he might (somehow) also have begun bonding a spren.  We just don't know enough.  I wouldn't use it as a counter-argument against Shallan's bonding, though.

Edited July 5, 2013 by happyman

[Shardlet]

However, we have no indication yet whether the bond that was formed between Shallan and the Cryptic was transient or enduring.  It is entirely possible that such a transient bond could be established to gain access to Shadesmar.  The Cryptic does not appear to play any role in the actual soulcasting other than giving Shallan access to Shadesmar where she accomplishes the soulcasting.  The soulcasting appears to be an interaction between just Shallan and the goblet.  On the other hand, it may very well be the beginning stages an enduring bond.  We simply don't have any evidence one way or the other that I have seen.  If you have or know of any other evidence to support your belief happyman, I would love to know about it.  Because I, like Meg, am dubious as to the Shallan-Cryptic bond being enduring.

 

As to the drawing, that Shallan "sees" the Cryptics in her drawing clearly verifies that something mystical is happening when Shallan takes and draws her "memories".  However, she has also clearly been making these drawings for a long time without having ever seen the Cryptics until she started doing drawings in the Palanaeum.  I think this indicates that the Cryptics have little, if anything, to do with her drawing ability.

[Meg]

I'm with Shardlet here. 

 

 

But some own thoughts: 

 

Do you think there is a bond (Nahel or not) between Shallan and the cryptic?  The quotes hoser found strongly suggest that there is a bond between Shallan and the Cryptic.  What's more, immediately after that quote, Shallan tells the Cryptic a very strong truth indeed.  The bond, if the Cryptic is telling the truth, should be extremely strong.

In fact, if what the Cryptic says to her is true, she bonded immediately before the first time she soul-cast, when she told it she was terrified.

 

 

"A bond (Nahel or not)" ... That's a valid question. Do we know that there are bonds aside from the Nahel bond? I think, a Nahel bond is permanent when established. 

What other bonds might be there? 

 

The cryptics seem to grant access to Shadesmar. Aside from the Soulcasting itself (when Shallan entered Shadesmar the second time (to proof her ability to do so to Jasnah) there was no Soulcasting involved). 

Though I'm not defying that Soulcasting needs this access to Shadesmar, I think the cryptics a kind of "doorkeepers" for Shadesmar and the "tax" to pass is telling a strong truth. 

 

If there is the possibility of a bond between somebody wanting access to Shadesmar and the cryptics, I'm sure, Shallan wasn't bonded after her first visit to Shadesmar. Probably she's bonded after her second visit, but we don't have evidence because we didn't see her visit Shadesmar or Soulcast after her second visit. Perhaps her second truth (I'm a murderer) was strong enough to build a bond, but we don't know. 

 

 

 

Also, you don't see a connection between the cryptic and her painting?  Her drawing is the way she sees the cryptic the first time!  That's a pretty suggestive connection.

 

 

I've said: 

 

Also I don't really see a connection between the cryptics and her painting abilities. If I understood this right, the cryptics are her "spren partners" for soulcasting, not for drawing.

 

 

Her painting abilities might grant her the ability to paint the cryptics. But not the other way around. 

[Crysanja]

some say the memory-taking/painting is a gift from Cultivation.

 

do we have any other example for a gift from Cultivation in the Stormlight Archives?

 

otherwise i think there is only the bond to a spren, or the old magic left.

why invent things we have no example for.

 

 

about the time Shallan proved to Jasnah her skill of soulcastting.

She asks in her head "Creatures, ..., Can you hear me"?

 

the answer is "yes, always, .."

i think this shows the spren shes communicating with is more advanced. it seems its lisening to Shallan allways. like it is with her all the time.

and it seems to understand a little about time - otherwise it could just have said yes, but it said "allways". the other option would be that the spren is lieing - but thats a difficult concept, becfause Sly didnt understand it for a long time.

 

the following question from Shallan is very unspecific. "Can you return me to ghat place?". we know that newly bond spren, are very stupid and silly, they have not much of a character or understanding at all.

 

so this means either the bond is there for quite some time, or this spren (if it is one) is very very different to Sly, or was bond to someone very recently. Because it is not stuipd/silly.

[Isomere]

I like the idea of a cryptic as the "ferryman across the river styx" and the tax for passage is a truth about yourself. There is good evidence for this in regards to Shallan. However, Jasnah can also access shadesmar and she responded very oddly to seeing them in Shallan's drawings. If they were how Jasnah accessed shadesmar she would have responded "Oh, these creatures bring you to shadesmar." But instead she says "Do you see beings like this in shadesmar?" Take a look at this quote and notice how it ties the Cryptics in with a Knight Radiant Order, practically in the same breath. 

 

“What of the creatures with the symbol heads?” Shallan asked. She flipped through her sketches, then held up an image of them. “Do you see them too? How are they related?”

Jasnah frowned, taking the image. “You see beings like this? In Shadesmar?”

“They appear in my drawings,” Shallan said. “They’re around me, Jasnah. You don’t see them? Am I—”

Jasnah held up a hand. “These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.” She tapped the desk softly. “Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.” WOK ch. 72

 

This quote tells me that Jasnah does not usually interact with cryptics and was surprised that Shallan did. She confirms that cryptics are spren and hints they form one of the orders of Knights Radiant that could soulcast. She also confirms that the cryptics are "related to" what shallan does (which I interpret as both Soulcasting and Memory surges). She does NOT say they are related to what we do, strongly implying Jasnah is from a different order. 

 

I'm convinced that there is a spren-bond with Shallan / Cryptic. Just too many things hint at it. The argument that soulcasting must be unrelated because the cryptic isn't directly involved kinda falls apart when you compare to the only other known form of surgebinding. Kaladin doesn't interact with Syl at all when he is lashing, but we know the source of that ability is his spren-bond. Similarly, Shallan doesn't need to directly interact with her cryptic while soulcasting, even though the ability is tied to the spren-bond. 

[Shardlet]

True, but surgebinding abilities can exist and be used outside of a spren bond.  Szeth, we know, is not bonded to a spren, yet he can use lashings.  We have been quick to tie Shallan and Jasnah to KR orders, but the only characters we are justified in doing anything more than speculating about this are Kaladin maybe Dalinar because of his interactions with Honor.  But, since we have seen KR abilities outside of KR conditions (i.e., no spren bond) then we should not use speculation as evidence against different speculation.

 

Also, for the record, neither I nor Meg said that

 

I'm convinced that there is a spren-bond with Shallan / Cryptic. Just too many things hint at it. The argument that soulcasting must be unrelated because the cryptic isn't directly involved kinda falls apart when you compare to the only other known form of surgebinding. Kaladin doesn't interact with Syl at all when he is lashing, but we know the source of that ability is his spren-bond. Similarly, Shallan doesn't need to directly interact with her cryptic while soulcasting, even though the ability is tied to the spren-bond. 

 

See, you say here that the Cryptics are very likely connected to Shallan's soulcasting, but above that you point out that there appears to be a bit of a disconnect with Jasnah, when it comes to the Cryptics.  Again, I point to Szeth and abilities with no spren bond.  Also again, it may very well be the beginning of an enduring spren bond.  I don't think we have enough evidence to refute either theory, but I personally feel that the evidence we have so far leans transient.

 

As to your comments Crysanja, recall that at this point Shallan has been at Karbranth for quite some time.  I think this span of time is long enough to justify a general 'always' in the sense of the 'whole time we have known you'.  I think the fact that there are several Cryptics in the general vicinity of Shallan and Jasnah suggests that they are something significantly different in nature than Syl.

[Isomere]

I think the fact that there are several Cryptics in the general vicinity of Shallan and Jasnah suggests that they are something significantly different in nature than Syl.

To me the group behavior suggests that they may be able to communicate and form interpersonal relationships without a spren-bond. I believe this difference is because cryptics are more closely tied to the cognitive realm and likely live in Shadesmar. 

 

 We should not use speculation as evidence against different speculation.

Most of what we do on this forum is look for evidence that one speculation is more or less likely than another. I'm using a quote to provide circumstantial evidence that Jasnah and Shallan are getting their powers from spren associated with the KR. This isn't proof, and it comes from an in-world person with imperfect knowledge. Still, the way the Cryptics, Soulcasting and KR orders are linked in the quote is enough to convince me. "[Cryptics] are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do. Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability." (WOK ch. 72).

Edited July 6, 2013 by Isomere