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The Code Monkey's Object-Oriented Guide to Realmatic Theory


skaa

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It has taken a while, but I've finally decided to delve into the inner workings of the Cosmere and immerse myself in Realmatic Theory. I've already read both Kurkistan's and Satsuoni's impressively thorough musings on the matter, and I think I'm ready to share my thoughts.

Inspirations behind this theory include the MEC, Satsuoni's Realmatic theory, Wan ShaiLu's Realmatic lectures in TES, and... the object-oriented programming (OOP) paradigm.

You see, this lowly skaa is also a lowly code monkey in real life. I read and write code everyday, so it can't be helped that certain programming concepts intrude in my mind even when I'm not thinking about work. I've found that this can sometimes help me understand strange and alien concepts using terms I'm familiar with. So, here I will try to use OOP as an analogy to help fellow programmers understand Brandon's fictional cosmology. It will not be a perfect analogy, I know, but I'm gonna have to work with what I have.

Alright! Here we go! *crosses fingers*

Table of Contents
Part I: Objects and the Three Realms
Part II: Investiture, Shadesmar, and Metaprogramming
Part III: Realmatic Integration Testing
Appendix I: Realmatic Interactions

Part I: Objects and the Three Realms

Summary: In OOP terms, the Spiritual aspect is the set of an object's methods the class definition[1] of the object, the Cognitive aspect is the set of values of an object's runtime attributes, and the Physical aspect is the set of an object's publicly accessible members (i.e. its public interface).

Everything in the Cosmere is made up of "objects". By "object", I mean an entity that has both a set of constituent parts and a set of instructions detailing its behavior. Brandon is probably more familiar with the philosophical definition of the word, but since I'm just a code monkey and not a philosopher, I'll stick to my somewhat oversimplified OOP-based definition.

The behavioral specification (In OOP, the "class definition"[1]) of an object allows it to interact with itself and with others, and is basically the Spiritual aspect of the object, its soul. This jives with Satsuoni's theory that the Spiritual Realm is responsible for connections and interactions, as well as with Kurkistan's idea of "motive force".

Now, when we talk of an object "interacting with itself", what do we mean by that? The "Self" (or Spiritual Identity) exists because the different parts of the object (which are themselves objects) have started grouping their spiritual aspects into a single unit. In OOP, defining the identity of the object is the job of the constructor and setter methods. Identity determines what is in the object and what is outside of it, and in the Cosmere, this separation between "self" and "others" creates consciousness.

This coming together of separate objects to view themselves as a single conscious entity was already described by Shai, and she also explains that how an object views itself is basically its Cognitive aspect. In OOP, objects can have fields containing other objects that act as its attributes and properties. The Cognitive aspect would encompass everything that the object views in itself: its attributes, its constituent components, its thoughts, its sensory perceptions, etc.

Speaking of the senses, normal objects can only sense other objects in a limited way. In Realmatic terms, Object A can only sense Object B if Object B's Spiritual aspect specifies the possibility of interacting with Object A. In OOP terms, this involves two things:

  • Object B needs to have public methods or attributes.
  • Object A must be in a position to access those public members (i.e. Object B should be within its scope).

The sum total of all the publicly accessible methods and attributes of all the objects in the Cosmere is what we call the Physical realm. This includes the fundamental forces of nature like gravity and electromagnetism that all objects use to interact with each other, as well as the attributes changed by such interactions.

Remember that in the Cosmere, physical forces (e.g. gravity) are actually dictated by the Spiritual realm, while physical attributes (e.g. position, shape, structure, etc.) are stored in the Cognitive realm. The Physical realm therefore comes from the interaction between the Spiritual and Cognitive realms.

I suppose I ought to give some examples. Certain objects like bowling balls, jagged shards of glass, and human body parts have the ability to exert force (in the Newtonian sense of the word). In the Cosmere, these forces originate from the Spiritual realm (in OOP, the class definition)[1]. Such objects also have special kinds of properties like shape, color, structure, momentum, position in spacetime, etc., that are affected by forces exerted on them. The interaction of those forces (Spiritual) and those properties (Cognitive) is called Physics, which is why we call these objects Physical entities.

Another example would be thoughts and perceptions. These things would not have Spiritual methods to exert physical force. In fact they would just have the minimal amount of Spiritual presence to allow conscious objects to store, retrieve, analyze, or destroy them. Other than that, thoughts and perceptions would be mostly composed of attributes, like "truth-value". "clarity", "usefulness" etc., making these objects Cognitive entities.

Lastly, there would be objects that have behavioral instructions but have very few (if any) perceivable attributes. Examples are forces and spirits. They may "do things", but they have very little in terms of defining characteristics. These would be what we call Spiritual entities.

Here is how an object gains presence in all three realms:

  • An object must always have a Spiritual aspect, even if it's just a tiny one, for the simple reason that all objects must manifest at least one behavior: the action of existence. As long as an object exists, it is in the Spiritual realm. The more actions an object can perform, and the more complex those actions are, the stronger its Spiritual aspect. Complex lifeforms have a strong Spiritual presence, but so do cosmic forces like the Shards of Adonalsium. Objects with the strongest Spiritual presence might be called omnipotent.
  • An object gains a Cognitive aspect the moment it achieves Spiritual Identity (i.e. the moment it sees itself as a separate entity). The more distinctly this identity can be sensed by itself and others, the stronger the Cognitive aspect. This is usually achieved by increasing its number of unique attributes, especially attributes related to sensory perception (e.g. sensory organs). Intelligent beings have a strong Cognitive presence, and omniscient beings have the strongest Cognitive presence of all.
  • An object gains a Physical aspect when it allows its attributes to potentially become affected by the actions of other objects. Objects with a bigger number of attributes exposed to outside influence have a stronger Physical aspect. Mass is one of these attributes, so massive objects have a strong Physical presence, especially super-massive black holes.

 

 

(To be continued in Part II: Investiture, Shadesmar, and Metaprogramming)


Edit (Footnote [1]): Satsuoni and Kurkistan (who both inspired this theory) have convinced me in the discussion below that "methods" are the wrong analogy to use for the Spiritual realm. Rather, "classes" would be better. Note the corrections I made above to reflect this change in the theory.

 

Update(2016-12-31): Fixed the links in the table of contents. Reading this again after three and a half years, and knowing what we know now about the cosmere, I now find this to be little more than an amusing attempt to frame Realmatics in programming terms. Serious Cosmere theorists are better off speculating on what the Realms are, rather than what they can be compared to. For a more serious theory, consider this other one, instead.

 

 

Edited by skaa
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OK Wow i feel like I'm reading a text book, which is awesome because of the following. I like this though i have no idea what any of the Jargon means except on a basic level this is a very clear and very self contained theory. It also sums up a lot of Cosmere knowledge I think i could under stand this with out having read the actual books. now part of the reason i like this is probably be cause i am developing a world where a similar phenomena occurs but i agree whole heartily.

 

also the main reason this is getting posted is for a question-Is part two a second thread or a part of this one i need to know what to watch for

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OK Wow i feel like I'm reading a text book, which is awesome because of the following. I like this though i have no idea what any of the Jargon means except on a basic level this is a very clear and very self contained theory. It also sums up a lot of Cosmere knowledge I think i could under stand this with out having read the actual books. now part of the reason i like this is probably be cause i am developing a world where a similar phenomena occurs but i agree whole heartily.

also the main reason this is getting posted is for a question-Is part two a second thread or a part of this one i need to know what to watch for

Thanks, Tarontos! I tried to make it at least somewhat intelligible even to non-coders, but I wasn't sure I succeeded. :P

Part II will be a new post in this same thread. I'll work on it tonight (Philippine time), so stay tuned!

Edited by skaa
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Ok... As a kinda programmer myself, I can see the analogy, though once again, I dislike the concept of "pure form", or secondary nature of Cognitive/Physical Realms. However, I am now much too tired and busy to give the theory proper consideration, so instead, I'll just ask a few things.

(We really should think of a standard way to test such theories on the basic level of conforming to the existing Cosmere facts <_< )

So, if you don't mind, consider the following "task":

 

 Explain magic systems we have so far encountered within constraints of your theory (i.e. without breaking the OOP paradigm). The basic list includes: Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy, AonDor, Forging, Dakhor, Awakening/Returning, Surgebinding (infusing, Transformation,etc), formation of spren from concepts and spren actualization upon concept invocation (check if I missed some).

 

 See if anything breaks :)

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Satsuoni, that's a great idea, although necessarily time-consuming :) I would also like to see the theory further tested and developed.

I would ask also the specific question of God-metals, and how the theory supports, or falls short, when considering the statement that they are physical wrapped in spiritual (exact quote to follow below)

 

 

Viper

Hah. So in Cosmere, does physics work the same way in the physical realm as it does in our world? Specifically, particle physics; and are atoms made up of protons and neutrons and electrons, and is light photons, etc?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Viper

So what's at the core of an atom of Atium? Ate-teum? Also how do you pronounce it? At-teum?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. And the matter is just normal matter, but it's wrapped in the spiritual. The Spiritual DNA [or something] is what makes it magical.

 

source

Edited by Senor Feesh
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Ok... As a kinda programmer myself, I can see the analogy, though once again, I dislike the concept of "pure form", or secondary nature of Cognitive/Physical Realms. However, I am now much too tired and busy to give the theory proper consideration, so instead, I'll just ask a few things.

(We really should think of a standard way to test such theories on the basic level of conforming to the existing Cosmere facts <_< )

So, if you don't mind, consider the following "task":

 

 Explain magic systems we have so far encountered within constraints of your theory (i.e. without breaking the OOP paradigm). The basic list includes: Allomancy, Feruchemy, Hemalurgy, AonDor, Forging, Dakhor, Awakening/Returning, Surgebinding (infusing, Transformation,etc), formation of spren from concepts and spren actualization upon concept invocation (check if I missed some).

 

 See if anything breaks :)

 

Hey Satsuoni! My own personal philosophy is also against the idea that the physical world is "secondary", but we have to remember that this is a fictional cosmology we're talking about. I believe that the Three Realms was inspired at least in part by Platonic philosophy, and that philosophy clearly teaches that physical phenomena are just shadows of an Ideal world. In WoK, the Geranid interlude includes evidence that the Spiritual Realm is the Ideal world in the Cosmere:

"Heralds need food," she said...

 

"Do they?" Ashir asked. "...The body must be fed in the Physical Realm, but the spirit exists in a completely different state."

 

"A state of ideals," she replied. "So, you could create ideal foods, perhaps."

 

As for the test you suggested, that is actually the point of Parts II and III of my theory, which are still under construction. Part II will be about the nature of Investiture in general as well as about Shadesmar, while Part III will have some detailed discussions of the various magic systems.

 

Note, though, that I am just using OOP as a tool for analogy to help other programmers understand my theory. I'm pretty sure that Brandon was thinking of philosophical objects rather than OOP ones while forming the rules for the Cosmere, but I thought OOP objects were close enough to be used just as an analogy. That's why I made a point of restating the theory in non-OOP terms at the end of Part I.

 

Also, I don't know if you noticed the significant changes I've made from what I originally posted yesterday. I found many glaring errors, absurdities, and readability problems that I had to fix. That should teach me to write these things in the middle of the night. (Or not, as I'm about to perform the same mistake in a little while. :P)

Edited by skaa
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Hey Satsuoni! My own personal philosophy is also against the idea that the physical world is "secondary", but we have to remember that this is a fictional cosmology we're talking about. I believe that the Three Realms was inspired at least in part by Platonic philosophy, and that philosophy clearly teaches that physical phenomena are just shadows of an Ideal world. In WoK, the Geranid interlude includes evidence that the Spiritual Realm is the Ideal world in the Cosmere:

That is in-realm knowledge, so it might be flawed. Also, just because a realm contains ideals, doesn't mean that it is the only thing that matters. In terms of my (admittedly not up-to-date) programming terminology, one can consider "ideals" be class definitions, and "shadows" being particular instances thereof, and you can't really do much with only definitions... (Note the usage of the word "one", which indicates that I myself may or may not consider thusly). I am familiar with Platonic philosophy, and find it... imperfect :)

 

As for test you suggested, that is actually the point of Parts II and III of my theory, which are still under construction. Part II will be about the nature of Investiture in general as well as about Shadesmar, while Part III will have some detailed discussions of the various magic systems.

Investiture, heh. We still don't agree on what that even is :) I am curious to hear your thoughts on that.

 

Also, I don't know if you noticed the significant changes I've made from what I originally posted yesterday. I found many glaring errors, absurdities, and readability problems that I had to fix. That should teach me to write these things in the middle of the night. (Or not, as I'm about to perform the same mistake in a little while. :P)

Dunno, I've just read your topic today, so I guess the changes were already there...

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Part II: Investiture, Shadesmar, and Metaprogramming

If you noticed, the first part of my theory doesn't really delve into the "magic" of the Cosmere. In fact, Part I sounds more like a crazy theory about the real world than one about a magic world. After all, what I've written offers no explanation for the spirit-destroying craziness of Hemalurgy, nor the miraculous effects of Forgery. Why did the Cosmere I just described look so boring?

Well, to be fair, I was using object-oriented programming as an analogy, and OOP usually is kinda boring... if you haven't explored more advanced OOP languages, that is.

Most beginners in object-oriented programming think that objects can only access the public methods and fields of other objects. Private members are strictly private. Another perceived limitation is that an object cannot add to or modify its own methods, much less other objects' methods. The same goes for the Cosmere. An object's soul remains unchangeable unless it is destroyed, and the Physical realm is where all interactions must take place, just like in the real world.

The thing is, those limitations are the general rule, but there are exceptions. There is a concept called metaprogramming that, when used in OOP, could bypass the limitations stated above. Metaprogramming can be used to change a private field without the need of a public setter method, or to add/modify methods in existing objects during runtime. Of course, metaprogramming is an advanced technique that can be quite tricky to use, depending on what you want to do. But in the hands of a decent programmer, it can perform programming magic.

The counterpart of metaprogramming in the Cosmere resides in what is called the Power of Creation, a Spiritual force so powerful that it can be used to perform the impossible: change an object's soul. This power is manifested by all the weird Realmatic happenings connected to Adonalsium and its Shards, which supposedly hold the majority of this Power.

One major Realmatic phenomenon associated to all this weirdness is the process called Investiture. A holder of the Power of Creation (e.g. a Shard) can Invest (i.e. "adorn") an object with part of this Power, with a specific Intent to modify its behavior and the way it interacts with other objects (e.g. grant a pig the ability to fly). The Intent is carried out as long as the object is Invested.

Here is the step-by-step process:

  • An object is Invested with part of the Power of Creation.
  • An Intent is defined, detailing how the Power is to be used.
  • The Intent is carried out, changing the object's soul. This can last as long as the Investiture persists.
  • If the Investiture is removed from the object (either automatically or forcibly), the Intent ceases to be.
In programming terms, Investiture would be like metaprogramatically creating a Method X for Object A to allow Task T be performed. Once Method X (the Investiture method) ends, Task T (the Intent) also ends, and Object A is left with whatever the results were.

This process is the source of all magic systems in the Cosmere. One important thing to note is that the Intent does not always directly come from a Shard. It can also come from a Focus, an object whose attributes can be mapped to a specific Intent. In the metaprogramming example described above, using a Focus would be like using other objects as flags to determine what Task T should be.

Modifying objects' behavior may be fun and all, but there is another sort of "metaprogramming" done in the Cosmere, this time dealing with the Cognitive aspects of objects. I'm talking of course about Shadesmar. It is a cool and scary place where the Cognitive aspects of objects are perceived Physically. This makes Spiritual Identity-related Investitures a lot easier, and allows Worldhoppers to skip non-cognitive space while traveling. This is the equivalent of wantonly reading and modifying objects' private attributes via metaprogramming. Both are quite awesome, but very dangerous if you don't know what you are doing.

I suspect that Adonalsium (back before he/it was Shattered) used the Power of Creation to modify the Cosmere's very soul (the soul of a galaxy!) with the Intent to create a fancy, powerful, and convenient interface to the Cosmere's Cognitive aspect. Since the Cosmere contains... well... everything in the Cosmere, this interface basically became synonymous with the Cognitive realm. Thus, Shadesmar was formed, possibly the most awesome display of Investiture ever (aside from the creation of the Cosmere itself).

(To be concluded in Part III: Realmatic Integration Testing)

Edited by skaa
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EDIT: Gorram it, he posted while I was typing.

 

Very well laid-out thread, skaa. The bolding of the Realms was a good idea, helps break up the flow. Thank you for taking the time to read my and Satsuoni's threads, as well as reference them directly. I'll be following this with interest.

 

So far as just general computer-sciencyness goes, I have been cautioned rather strongly in the past that my use of such terminology is less than helpful. Just a fair warning, even if it is only an analogy.

 

Be warned that magic-modeling in-detail is harder than it looks. Awakening took the equivalent of a small book for me to nail down, once all the wrangling with Nepene was over and done with (and that wrangling even stopped on a less-than-conclusive note).

 

In addition to Satsuoni's "challenges", I have a few more thoughts that I jotted down while reading the OP:

 

It also seems that we're allowed to have "pure" interactions between Realms, without the need for interfaces through the Cognitive in order to have a Physical<->Spiritual interaction, for instance. There's also some rather heavy indication that you can have pure Spiritual<->Spiritual interactions (Gaotona's soul knowing Ashraven's, "life sense" for Breath, Feruchemical Connection, etc.).

 

You might also want to look to the thoughts Aaradel and I discussed starting on this post of my Forms thread; don't worry, it has very little to do with the gargantuan OP, much to my chagrin.

 

Also, Shai notes that the Cognitive is defined both by how objects view themselves and by how they are viewed by others, so you need some external interaction going on there.

 

How exactly do you model objects Physical forms being damaged, but their Cognitive aspects remaining the same? Such as with magical Healing, or Shai Forging that stained glass window. In both cases, we rely on an amount of inertia in the Cognitive Realm despite changes in the Physical. If the Physical is merely the result of the interaction of the Cognitive and Spiritual, then there will be nothing to tell the Physical object that it is damaged, it seems.

 

You're placement of abstract ideas in the realm of Cognitive entities is a bit disturbing, given that Shai herself talks about the idea of a Window residing in the Spiritual Realm. Since we know that the same kind of thing that defines plausibility in Forgery defines spren, it seems that even more abstract concepts also reside in the Spiritual Realm--though I"ll admit that there is a slight leap from plausibility-calculation to some "Window Form", I think that the fact that I was purely theorizing when I went from the second to the first, and only then got proof of the first seems to indicate that they are one and the same, if I may say so myself. B)

 

Also, query: would a mass of wood and screws in space that drifted together into a chair see itself as a chair, under your model? Or, as a non-sentient entity, would it need some perceiving being to see it as a whole first, before it saw itself as such?

 

P.S. You might want to know that all your links in the OP currently lead back to this page. ;)

Edited by Kurkistan
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Hello, Kurkistan! I am honored by your visit to my Realmatic thread. :)

 

It is currently midnight where I live, but I plan to edit Parts I and II tomorrow to discuss some of the issues you brought up that I don't have the time to think about right now (coz I'm really sleepy). I will admit that Satsuoni's suggestion that the Spiritual realm should pertain to class definitions instead of just method definitions is starting to make a lot of sense considering that "idea of a Window" thing you pointed out.

 

 

P.S. You might want to know that all your links in the OP currently lead back to this page. ;)

 

Fixed, thanks! (Man, that was weird.  :blink:)

Edited by skaa
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Thank you, though I'm just a humble Catquisitor with too much time on my hands (who should be learning OpenFlow at this moment, actually, so not that much time...).

 

As for EDITing the OP, might I caution you on that? Discussions tend to get a bit hazy when their topic (your OP, in this case) is in a state of flux. Earlier comments don't make sense to someone reading the thread for the first time, people get frustrated, etc. If you really feel that you need to make substantial content changes to the body of one of your posts, I would note the time/date and set it off in a separate little block, so it's very obvious what happened when for what reason.

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Kurkistan, on 24 Jun 2013 - 00:24, said:

As for EDITing the OP, might I caution you on that? Discussions tend to get a bit hazy when their topic (your OP, in this case) is in a state of flux. Earlier comments don't make sense to someone reading the thread for the first time, people get frustrated, etc.

Understood. I'll just discuss those here, then.

First, let's analyze what a "concept of a Window" is in light of my Realmatic model:

  • Physical realm: Obviously the "concept of a Window" is not a Physical entity because its spiritual makeup does not specify any way for it to affect existing objects under normal circumstances.

     

  • Cognitive realm: I previously mentioned that "abstract thoughts and perceptions" are Cognitive entities. I will have to take that back because it is absurd. I realize that perceptions, no matter how vague, cannot be "abstract", because they originate from sensory data, and data is always concrete. But one cannot perceive the "concept of a Window". Concepts are conceived, not perceived. One can only perceive a concrete instance of a window. In Realmatic terms, the concept of a Window has a weak Identity because its vision of itself is not complete until it is actualized through the creation of a perceivable window. In OOP terms, it is not yet instantiated (its constructor is yet to be called), so its attributes have not yet been initialized. Since its Identity is weak, it is not a Cognitive entity.

     

  • Spiritual realm: Under my model, the Spiritual aspect of an object is its behavioral specification. That's why I said they were analogous to the OOP concept of "methods". But I now realize (thanks to Satsuoni and you, Kurkistan) that the better analogy for specifications would be "classes". After all, class definitions already include method definitions. In this case, the concept of a Window is a class definition for all windows, and so it is a Spiritual entity.

As for abnormal interactions between realms, those are brought about via Investiture. Using the Power of Creation, you can change the behavioral specification of an object (its soul) to allow for any arbitrary interaction that you like. I will discuss this fully when I get to Part III of the theory.

 

Kurkistan, on 23 Jun 2013 - 23:49, said:

Also, query: would a mass of wood and screws in space that drifted together into a chair see itself as a chair, under your model? Or, as a non-sentient entity, would it need some perceiving being to see it as a whole first, before it saw itself as such?

There is an OOP concept called polymorphism, which allows objects to be of multiple types/classes. You can declare an object to be of Class A, and if A's class definition allows it, you can "type-cast" the object as one of Class B. Some programming languages even support "duck typing", which means that as long as an object's specifications are compatible with a certain type, you can type-cast it into that type.

I suspect a similar thing is happening in your scenario. The mass of wood and screws gathered together to instantiate an object with the soul of MassOfWoodAndScrewsShapedLikeAChair, but the resulting "class definition" or soul also allows the object to be type-cast into a Chair, and so people can sit on it.

 

Youngy, on 24 Jun 2013 - 08:50, said:

I love it - and you know, its not a bad metaphor to bring all of the theory together (if you have some knowledge of OOP)

Thanks! :)

Edited by skaa
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I tend not to like programming-based magic analogies, ever since I tried to make sense of them in the Mage: the Ascension RPG years ago. (One of the factions viewed all magic as information science, but the writers didn't provide any details, so I was left to my imagination.) I gave up on it for reasons similar to Sanderson's Second Law. The programming metaphor makes anything possible, and gets boring. Every magic spell turns into "I need more access," or "I found a bug," or "I caused a hardware failure and exploited a memory error," or something like that.

"Well there was a memory error, so that method that gets called when I wave my hand at people? It's calling something that makes them explode instead."

It just seems too generic, and unlimited in its application, to be fun to me. I don't think it can be saved either, since the entire point of high-level programming languages is how generic they are. The hardware may do some very interesting things to give us RAM, but the programming language is deliberately isolated from the interesting details. So from the start, the deck is stacked against any attempt to make the programming analogy interesting.

edit: Maybe I'm being a bit too pessimistic, since at other times I like to think of the Spiritual Realm as pure information, without the bother of space, conservation laws, and other pesky physical requirements. The way the Basic Lashing works with "spiritual gravitational bonds" isn't so far from a programming metaphor of "I changed a value and made it act funny." I just think it gets completely out of control if not subject to limitations, and that the Physical and Cognitive realms are real, and putting real limits on this stuff.

Edited by Morsk
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Mason Wheeler Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Also, I overheard him saying to anther fan that all magic on Sel is essentially programming, and building up a complex Aonic effect or an intricate Forgery works just like writing code.

Edited by Phantom Monstrosity
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@skaa
 
I'm still a tad unclear on what exactly the form of these not-yet-actualized Cognitive windows take, and what purpose they serve in your system. From what I can gather, I still think you're conception might be a tad weak. We have from Brandon that "human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm." That suggests something a tad stronger, a "perception of an ideal" that has real existence, rather than the vague shadow I understand from you. Something stronger than just isolated and ephemeral thoughts, essentially.

 

I can see a "classes" understanding of "Forms", though.
 
I'm very leery of calling all interactions that aren't mediated by the Physical "abnormal". It closes a lot of doors. Also, while I think Morsk may be somewhat overstating just how "powerful" your conception of Realmatics as programming is, saying that any and all "abnormal" interactions are just Investiture doing whatever it feels like to souls does seem to be overkill. The other Realms have power, I think, and it would be dangerous to try and wrest it from them.
 
For instance, I have theorized (though this is by no means gospel) that the Cognitive is primarily responsible for "burning off" stoulstamps. Are you going to say that this is all courtesy of Daddy Spiritual, or allow the Cognitive that power? When two Awakeners sense each other's heightened Breath-counts, is their held Investiture changing their souls on the fly to "feel" that, or are their Spiritual aspects simply interacting one-on-one? Strong emotions in the Cognitive can apparently interfere with the other two Realms, up and down the stream. It seems contrived to attribute this to indirect soul-changing in the Spiritual, when these emotions are the very thing that interfere with Ruin's continued Spiritual dominance of you.

 

 
As for the chair, that question was actually two-fold; the first part you answered: whether a mass of loose objects without a perceiver would see themselves as a whole. You say it will. The second is a tad more delicate, though: will it see itself as a Chair? You say that it can type-cast as a chair, meaning here that it retains all of its meaningful properties in either context, but does it see itself as a chair at any moment before being perceived as such? This has a rather strong impact on any theory of Forms/Archetypes/Ideals.
 
The second question relies on the answer to the first: a "no" to the first makes the second moot. But since you say yes to it, you do raise this issue.
 
In TES (Day Twelve), Shai says "The longer an object exists as a whole, and the longer it is seen in that state, the stronger its sense of complete identity becomes." Now this quote does seem to suggest that aggregates can become singular objects all on their lonesome (though, just for philosophical (actual philosophy, not a principled stance) reasons I'm tempted to think that such an understanding is wrong, whether or not Shai means it that way), but either way I think that being a chair necessarily imparted by some observer, as I do not trust blocks of wood to make that choice. In some cultures, what looks like a chair to us (4 legs, a seat, a back) is actually a short table which happens to be attached to a convenient coat rack. What right does a coat-rack-table have to think of itself as a chair, if it were made and used only in that culture?

 

@Morsk

 

I feel your concern, but I don't think skaa is being quite that evil just yet. We'll keep an eye on him ;)
 
@Phantom
 
Will that guy ever shut up with the quotes I mean seriously. Also, that almost seems to undercut skaa a bit, or at best just be neutral, if Brandon considers Sel "programming world" and thus, presumably, finds it more programy than the rest of the Cosmere.

Edited by Kurkistan
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@skaa

 

I'm still a tad unclear on what exactly the form of these not-yet-actualized Cognitive windows take, and what purpose they serve in your system.

 

I was trying to say in my reply that I no longer think of them as Cognitive. I redefined my conception of the Spiritual aspect from "method definition" to "class definition". Since the concept of a Window is a class, it is therefore a Spiritual entity. Pardon me if I wasn't clear.

 

 

I tend not to like programming-based magic analogies, ever since I tried to make sense of them in the Mage: the Ascension RPG years ago. (One of the factions viewed all magic as information science, but the writers didn't provide any details, so I was left to my imagination.) I gave up on it for reasons similar to Sanderson's Second Law. The programming metaphor makes anything possible, and gets boring. Every magic spell turns into "I need more access," or "I found a bug," or "I caused a hardware failure and exploited a memory error," or something like that.

 

I'm very leery of calling all interactions that aren't mediated by the Physical "abnormal". It closes a lot of doors. Also, while I think Morsk may be somewhat overstating just how "powerful" your conception of Realmatics as programming is, saying that any and all "abnormal" interactions are just Investiture doing whatever it feels like to souls does seem to be overkill.

 

I apologize for not discussing the limitations of Investiture. I believe Brandon has said that the types of Shardic Investiture possible on a Shardworld depends on the Intent of the Shard, the beliefs of its holder, and the soul of the Shardworld itself. I don't think we need a programming analogy in this case since this is already a known fact, but suffice to say that the capabilities of metaprogramming will also depend on various factors (off the top of my head: the metaprogramming technique used, the specs of the machine that the program is running on, the skill of the developer, etc.).

 

As for the term "abnormal", I suppose I should have used the term "supernatural" instead. In my view, Realmatics is supposed to make the Cosmere look like the real world in most cases, but still allow for the possibility of magical phenomena via Investiture. It doesn't mean that the Shards can do "whatever they like", but from the point of view of puny humans, they would be quite god-like indeed.

 

 

In TES (Day Twelve), Shai says "The longer an object exists as a whole, and the longer it is seen in that state, the stronger its sense of complete identity becomes." Now this quote does seem to suggest that aggregates can become singular objects all on their lonesome (though, just for philosophical (actual philosophy, not a principled stance) reasons I'm tempted to think that such an understanding is wrong, whether or not Shai means it that way), but either way I think that being a chair necessarily imparted by some observer, as I do not trust blocks of wood to make that choice. In some cultures, what looks like a chair to us (4 legs, a seat, a back) is actually a short table which happens to be attached to a convenient coat rack. What right does a coat-rack-table have to think of itself as a chair, if it were made and used only in that culture?

 

I agree with your assessment that an object that was not intentionally created to be a chair would only see itself as a chair if someone else thinks it's a chair. In most uses of typecasting, Object A's Method X is the one that typecasts Object B. We rarely see objects typecasting themselves.

 

 

Also, that almost seems to undercut skaa a bit, or at best just be neutral, if Brandon considers Sel "programming world" and thus, presumably, finds it more programy than the rest of the Cosmere.

 

Except I never claimed that Brandon finds the Cosmere programmy. The OOP analogy is a tool that I use to compensate for my depressing lack of understanding of the Platonic Theory of Forms (which, I suspect, was Brandon's inspiration for Realmatics).

 

I bet that an actual philosopher, one who is intimately familiar with Plato's philosophy, could make a much better analysis of Realmatic theory. But I don't pretend to be a philosopher, so I won't attempt to make a rigorous philosophical treatise on Cosmeric Realmatics here. I'm just a code monkey skaa, after all.

Edited by skaa
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As for Cognitive thingamabob's: ah. Although I think you may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on this one, a la the Brandon quote about "perception of ideals" being Cognitive.
 
So far as "whatever they like", I may have been somewhat misleading as to what my real concern is. It's not so much unconstrained changes to the soul (though that does have the potential to be worrying, if it's limits are not well-defined) as the need to go through the soul for all non-Physical interactions, specifically changing the soul each and every time. So "life sense" wouldn't just be a faculty of the soul, but the result of constant changes to it, it seems. Cognitive aspects changing would have to not only be mediated by Spiritual connections, but defined by those connections changing the soul as well. It's a tad restrictive, if that makes sense after I just said it was too powerful.
 
With the chair, my main concern is that the space-chair not be a chair even in potentia. It's Cognitive aspect oughtn't to conform to our conceptions of "chair" in any way, and I think it may even take some doing to transform it such that it became one. So beyond needing a 3rd party, we may even need a bit more "oomph" in order to change space-chair into a proper chair. You may not disagree with this, but I wanted to get that out there.
 
So far as my interpretation of Phantom's quote, I acknowledge that you consider OOP an analogy (though one you stick to quite doggedly). I was merely trying to provide the full range of impacts from it, of which the worst case is an explicit rejection of any attempt to characterize Realmatics in terms of computer programming.
 
Brandonh has said "Cosmere stuff [is] my underlying theory of existence in my novels, which is based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'", so you are right to say that Plato's theory of Forms is important to Realmatics. Don't feel too bad about approaching it philosophically; I actually am a (larval) philosopher and it doesn't seem to help much, beyond surface characterizations.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Part III: Realmatic Integration Testing

Let me first summarize the first two parts of my Realmatic Theory (this time without OOP terminology, to cater to those who dislike it):

 

The definitions of the three realms:

  • Spiritual realm: The ideal conception of objects. The soul defines how an object should act and behave in relation to itself and other objects.
  • Cognitive realm: The perception of objects. The Cognitive aspect is how an object views itself and how it is viewed by others, including all of its perceivable attributes.
  • Physical realm: The normal realm of interactions between objects, where the Spiritual and the Cognitive meet. The Physical aspect of an object is what affects and is affected by other objects.

The process of Investiture:

  • Invest a target object with a Spiritual power.
  • Define an Intent for the Investiture to change the soul of the object. This may be done via a Focus.
  • Execute the Intent.

 

Now let us look if the above Realmatic and Investiture model fits the existing magic powers that we know. We will use the following format:

 

Target of Investiture: Who will receive the Spiritual power
Focus of Intent: What object determines the Intent of Investiture (Optional)
Intent: What to change in the target's soul
Source of Investiture: Where the target will receive the Spiritual power

Fuel for Investiture: What will be converted into Spiritual power (Optional)
Execution of Intent: When the Intent will be executed (relative to the time of Investiture)

 

So let's start!


Allomancy


Creating lerasium
Target of Investiture: Unknown (I have a theory about it; could just be bunnies, though  :P )
Focus of Intent: None (Intent comes from Preservation)
Intent: Permanently modify the soul of target to gain the following:

  • Total alignment to Preservation
  • New physical attributes (whatever lerasium's physical attributes are)
  • The ability to automatically replace itself with part of Preservation's Power through various means, one of which is via the process of "burning" when inside a person

Source of Investiture: Preservation

Fuel for Investiture: None
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

Creating a Mistborn
Target of Investiture: A person
Focus of Intent: Ingested lerasium (or none, if Investiture was inherited from parent)
Intent: Permanently modify soul of target to gain the ability to transform ingested Allomantic metals into Shardic Power via the process of "burning". (WoB says that lerasium can be used for other Intents.)
Source of Investiture: Preservation, or through inheritance

Fuel for Investiture: The Focus (or none, if Investiture was inherited from parent)
Execution of Intent: Immediate or via Snapping (pre-Harmony) if Investiture was inherited

Allomantic Investiture
Target of Investiture: A Mistborn
Focus of Intent:  And ingested piece of Allomantic metal (each type is associated with a different Intent)
Intent: Depends on Focus. Affects the soul only temporarily under most normal circumstances (though there are exceptions).
Source of Investiture: A Shard (either Preservation or Ruin)

Fuel for Investiture: The Focus
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

Zinc Allomantic Investiture
Target of Investiture: A Zinc Allomancer (Mistborn or Rioter)
Focus of Intent: Ingested zinc
Intent: Temporarily give the soul the ability to directly access another person's Cognitive aspect to increase his emotion levels while zinc is being burned.
Source of Investiture: Preservation

Fuel for Investiture: The Focus
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

 

Feruchemy

Creating a Feruchemist
Target of Investiture: A person
Focus of Intent: Unknown (probably lerasium), or none if Investiture is inherited
Intent: Permanently modify the target's soul so that target can transform part of its soul or some of its own attributes into Spiritual power and back, and so that the target can Invest that Spiritual power into a metalmind (and retrieve it as well).
Source of Investiture: Unknown (probably Preservation), or through inheritance

Fuel for Investiture: Unknown (probably lerasium), or none if Investiture was inherited
Execution of Intent: Unknown

 

Feruchemical storage
Target of Investiture: An Allomantic metal
Focus of Intent: The target metal (each type is associated with a different Intent)
Intent: If target metal is not yet a metalmind of a Feruchemist, change the metal's soul so that it will only allow the stored Spiritual power to be retrieved by the Feruchemist who stored it. Otherwise, the target is simply Invested for the purpose of storage and later retrieval.
Source of Investiture: The Feruchemist

Fuel for Investiture: The Feruchemist's attribute to be Invested
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

 

Duralumin Feruchemical storage
Target of Investiture: A piece of duralumin

Intent: If target metal is not yet a metalmind of a Feruchemist, change the metal's soul so that it will only allow the stored Spiritual Connection to be retrieved by the Feruchemist who stored it. Otherwise, the target is simply Invested for the purpose of storage and later retrieval of Spiritual Connection.
Source of Investiture: The Feruchemist

Fuel for Investiture: The Feruchemist's Spiritual Connection
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

 

Hemalurgy

Creating a Hemalurgist
Target of Investiture: A person
Focus of Intent: Unknown (possibly lerasium), or none if Investiture is inherited
Intent: Permanently modify the target's soul to give it Hemalurgic bindpoints that can receive Investiture from metal spikes.
Source of Investiture: Unknown (possibly Preservation), or through inheritance

Fuel for Investiture: None
Execution of Intent: Unknown

 

Creating a Hemalurgic spike
Target of Investiture: An Allomantic metal spike that has not yet been Invested
Focus of Intent: The target spike (each type is associated with a different Intent)
Intent: Modify the soul of the spike so that it leaks Investiture while outside of a body.
Source of Investiture: The victim stabbed by the target spike

Fuel for Investiture: The victim's attribute to be Invested
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

 

Using a Hemalurgic spike
Target of Investiture: A Hemalurgist
Focus of Intent: The target spike (each type is associated with a different Intent)
Intent: Modify the soul of the target depending on the Focus.
Source of Investiture: A Hemalurgic spike

Fuel for Investiture: None
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution


BioChroma


Creation of BioChromatic Breath
Target of Investiture: A person
Focus of Intent: None
Intent: Modify the soul to create a detachable part with the following abilities:

  • Enhance the attributes of the person (increased awareness, increased resistance to aging and disease, etc.)
  • Become a conduit for Endowment's Power to execute Commands

Source of Investiture: Endowment, or through inheritance

Fuel for Investiture: None
Execution of Intent: At birth

BioChromatic Heightening
Target of Investiture: A person with Innate Investiture from Endowment
Focus of Intent: The Command "My life to yours, my Breath become yours" (or none, if Investiture is received at birth)
Intent: Integrate the BioChromatic Breath/s into the target's soul
Source of Investiture: BioChromatic Breath/s

Fuel for Investiture: None
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

Creation of BioChromatic Entities (Awakening)
Target of Investiture: An object to be Awakened
Focus of Intent: Any Awakening Command
Intent: Depends on Command
Source of Investiture: BioChromatic Breath/s

Fuel for Investiture: Color/pigment (might need to come from the Tears of Edgli)
Execution of Intent: Upon finishing formation of Command

 

Dor

Soul Forgery

Target of Investiture: An object to be Forged
Focus of Intent: The form of the Forgery seal
Intent: Modify the soul of the target depending on the Focus of Intent. (Modification might be rejected by the soul.)
Source of Investiture: Dor

Fuel for Investiture: Unknown (possibly the Ink used on the stamp)
Execution of Intent: Upon stamping the seal on the target

 

AonDor

Target of Investiture: An Elantrian
Focus of Intent: The form of the Aon/s drawn
Intent: Depends on the Focus of Intent
Source of Investiture: Dor

Fuel for Investiture: None
Execution of Intent: Immediate execution

 

 

(More to be added later.)

Edited by skaa
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(Sorry for the double-post, but I don't want to include this in Part III, this being my reply to Kurkistan's post above)

 

As for Cognitive thingamabob's: ah. Although I think you may have thrown the baby out with the bathwater on this one, a la the Brandon quote about "perception of ideals" being Cognitive.

 

Perceiving ideals is different from conceiving them. An ideal is perceived through its concrete instances, and that it part of the Cognitive. Without concrete instances, it can only be conceived, and it remains in the Spiritual. ("Conceived ideas = Spiritual" comes directly from Shai's lecture.)

 

 

So "life sense" wouldn't just be a faculty of the soul, but the result of constant changes to it, it seems. Cognitive aspects changing would have to not only be mediated by Spiritual connections, but defined by those connections changing the soul as well. It's a tad restrictive, if that makes sense after I just said it was too powerful.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "constant changes". A single Investiture of BioChromatic Breath is all that is needed to gain the life sense ability. The ability to supernaturally change Cognitive aspects can also be granted by a single act of Investiture. Of course, the person needs to keep that Investiture from ending if he wants to retain those abilities, but that fits with what we've seen so far in the books. For example, the life sense ability of Nalthians disappears upon removal of Breath. And when Investiture is stolen via Hemalurgy, the associated abilities disappear from the victim (which is, I suppose, kind of moot... since he'll most likely be dead).

 

 

So far as my interpretation of Phantom's quote, I acknowledge that you consider OOP an analogy (though one you stick to quite doggedly). I was merely trying to provide the full range of impacts from it, of which the worst case is an explicit rejection of any attempt to characterize Realmatics in terms of computer programming.
 
Brandonh has said "Cosmere stuff [is] my underlying theory of existence in my novels, which is based on a mash-up between Platonic Forms and Asian style 'everything has a soul'", so you are right to say that Plato's theory of Forms is important to Realmatics. Don't feel too bad about approaching it philosophically; I actually am a (larval) philosopher and it doesn't seem to help much, beyond surface characterizations.

 

Thanks for that quote! Did you like the OOP-free Part III? It's still not finished, though.

Edited by skaa
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(Sorry for the double-post, but I don't want to include this in Part III, this being my reply to Kurkistan's post above)

 

 

Perceiving ideals is different from conceiving them. An ideal is perceived through its concrete instances, and that it part of the Cognitive. Without concrete instances, it can only be conceived, and it remains in the Spiritual. ("Conceived ideas = Spiritual" comes directly from Shai's lecture.)

 

Eh. I feel as if there is a nice, comfortable niche for "working copies" of more rigid Spiritual Ideals to chill about in the Cognitive Realm. After all, there can be cities in Shadesmar, so there is some degree of permanence to the Cognitive.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "constant changes". A single Investiture of BioChromatic Breath is all that is needed to gain the life sense ability. The ability to supernaturally change Cognitive aspects can also be granted by a single act of Investiture. Of course, the person needs to keep that Investiture from ending if he wants to retain those abilities, but that fits with what we've seen so far in the books. For example, the life sense ability of Nalthians disappear upon removal of Breath. And when Investiture is stolen via Hemalurgy, the associated abilities is stolen disappears from the victim (which is, I suppose, kind of moot... since he'll most likely be dead).

 

Okay, I may have been misreading you, then. The problem is, now we have another question of what exactly we ought to infer when you say that the Cognitive gets "perceivable attributes"  and the Physical gets actual interaction.

 

If you mean that we can have neither perception nor affects on a purely Spiritual level, nor affects on the Cognitive, then we run into problems. The "life sense ability" seems to work on a purely Spirit-Spirit level. I'd thought that you were trying to avoid such direct interaction by having everything still happen on a lower level, but caused as secondary effects by constant changes on the Spiritual. If it's simply an ability which is granted, though, you are stuck with two Spiritual aspects interacting directly, which, by my understanding, you don't allow.

 

"Life sense" being Spiritual can be argued, though, so the more unambiguous case is Feruchemical Connection: A Spiritual attribute which affects your empathy with others going both ways. Once again, we get "naked" Spiritual interaction without any mediation by the other Realms.

 

Then again, I may be grossly misreading the amount of interaction you allow between the Realms. If so, I apologize, and I am open to being corrected on this point.

 

Thanks! Did you like the OOP-free Part III? It's still not finished, though.

 

It's concise enough, though somewhat bare-bones. While I can see that it fits well enough into your broader theorizing, I am unsure as to its utility. While I know I have no room to talk when it comes to "practical" (for very unusual definitions of practical) uses for Realmatic theorizing, the lack of identification of the means by which these Intents and Foci go about doing things, on an individual level, leaves a dearth of practical impact.

 

You say that burning Zinc "Temporarily give the soul the ability to increase emotion levels of other people while zinc is being burned," but fail to identify the means by which "the soul" goes about doing this emotion-increasing. Emotions are likely Cognitive (at least by my reading of this annotation), and the Allomancer needs to exercise mental effort, and we need to investigate how these pulses of Rioting manifest, and what exactly they effect on what level, and so on and so forth. We're left a bit starved for information to go off of for further theorizing.

 

Also, as a note, we know that Hoid has Breath at this point, so you don't need to be a Nalthian to receive it.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Okay, I may have been misreading you, then. The problem is, now we have another question of what exactly we ought to infer when you say that the Cognitive gets "perceivable attributes"  and the Physical gets actual interaction.

 

Alright then. Let me explain the three types of interactions possible under my model:

 

1. Physics

Description: The only natural way for Object A to interact with another object (Object B ) that is separate from it (i.e. Object B is not part of Object A's Identity). It is also one of two natural ways that an object can interact with itself.

Process of Interaction:

  1. Object A releases a force. (Spiritual)
  2. Object B receives the force via its Physical interface. (Physical)[1]
  3. Object B's attribute values change in response to the force. (Cognitive)[2]
  4. Object B reacts by releasing an equal and opposite force (a.k.a. Newton's Third Law). (Spiritual)

 

2. Cognition

Description: This is the second way for an object to interact with itself. Since the interaction is completely internal, the Physical interface is not used.

Process of Interaction:

  1. The object conceives of an idea. (Spiritual)
  2. If the idea is distinct enough, it is perceived as a thought and is stored as part of the object's attributes, perhaps replacing other attributes. (Cognitive)[3]

 

3. Investiture

Already explained in Part II. As you can see, both Physics and Cognition begins at the Spiritual level. That's because all interactions begin at a Spiritual level. By modifying the Spiritual code (what Brandon calls "Spiritual DNA" or "soul") via Investiture, you can actually create other types of interactions, depending on the Intent. That's where we get the magical Spiritual<->Spiritual type of interactions that you mention, for example.

 

 

Also, as a note, we know that Hoid has Breath at this point, so you don't need to be a Nalthian to receive it.

 

Yeah. I'm assuming that Hoid went through the process of obtaining Endowment's Investiture first before he took the Breath, though. For the same reason that you need to receive Preservation's Investiture first before you can burn metals.

 

I hope to make my view of Investiture clearer as I add more powers (including Duralumin Feruchemy) in Part III. Stay tuned!

 

 

***

Footnotes:

[1] If I may use my OOP analogy again, the Physical interface is the set of public methods defined in the object's class (i.e. its Spiritual aspect) that can be used to change the object's private attributes. Note that an object can also use its own Physical interface (e.g. when it moves its body parts).

 

[2] Objects whose Physical interface include sense organs could also perceive the received force as part of this Cognitive step.

 

[3] If the thought pertains to a certain physical action, the object could will that action to be performed, leading to a Physical interaction.

Edited by skaa
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This one Leuthie?

 
ZAS
After several more signings, I asked my other question. "Do people in the Comsere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?"
BRANDON SANDERSON
"No." He then signed a person's books, then said "To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though." Here
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ZAS

After several more signings, I asked my other question. "Do people in the Comsere, besides Nalthis, have Breaths?"
BRANDON SANDERSON
"No." He then signed a person's books, then said "To elaborate a little more, that's not to say they don't have a life force, because they do. But if someone not from Nalthis were to suddenly gain the ability to become an Awakener, they could not use what they have to Awaken something. That's not to say that they can't receive breaths though." Here
 
See, the funny thing about that quote is, it only says that non-Nalthians do not inherently have 'Breath'.  A non-Nalthian may gain the ability to awaken and a non-Nalthian may receive "Breaths".  It does, however, imply that something other than obtaining sufficient breath is required for a non-Nalthian to become an Awakener (presumably other than getting 5 upvotes on 17th Shard).  It is important to note, though, that the quote does not exclude the possibility of a non-Nalthian becoming an Awakener by simply obtaining sufficient breaths. 
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