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Theory: The Dawnshards were musical instruments


skaa

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So, this is just a quick theory about Dawnshards. First of all, here's what we know about them:

  • They can "bind any creature, voidish or mortal"
  • They disappeared some time before Tanavast recorded his "journal"
  • Tanavast believes that they can be of great help in fighting Odium

There is also this tidbit:
 

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above."
—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these "Dawnshards" are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

 

 
Analyzing the Poem of Ista, I propose that Dawnshards were held in the user's hands when being used, as opposed to being worn like Shardplate, but of course we're not sure.

Next, let's look at all the other terms on Roshar that contain the word "dawn":

  • Dawnsingers
  • Dawnchant (an ancient language that now survives only in the Vanrial song)
  • Dawncities (which, as Kabsal showed, feature cymatic patterns)

It's already obvious where I'm getting at: I think the Dawnshards were magical musical instruments used by certain heroes of the Heraldic epochs (perhaps the Dawnsingers, or perhaps some other group entirely).

There! I've said it. Now that I read that, it almost seems rather silly in its simplicity ("Dawnsingers and Dawnshards both have 'dawn' in them, so they must be related? LOL, you silly skaa..."). But it does shine a new light on Kaladin's encounter with Hoid. While I don't necessarilty think that Hoid's flute is a Dawnshard nor that Kaladin will become a Dawnsinger, I do think that Hoid might be preparing Kaladin to one day rediscover these magical artifacts so that he may "return to men the Shards they once bore".

Also, magical music sounds more likely to "bind" creatures than, say, slashing at them with magical swords. (As you can see, I am highly skeptical of the idea that the Dawnshards were some sort of Shardblade.)

 

Edit: Given what we've seen in Words of Radiance, I now also suspect that these musical instruments called Dawnshards are also spren, and somehow these spren (Dawnsingers?) have "died", or at least have disappeared for some reason.

Edited by skaa
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I like that idea. If it proofs true I'd add the possibility that Hoid's Trailman's flute might be one. 

 

But there is that: 

 

“What about the Dawnsingers?” Shallan asked.
“What about them?”
“Could they have created it?”
He chuckled as they arrived at the lift. “That isn’t the kind of thing the Dawnsingers did. They were healers, kindly spren sent by the Almighty to care for humans once we were forced out of the Tranquiline Halls.”
“Kind of like the opposite of the Voidbringers.”
“I suppose you could say that.

 

TWoK Ch. 45 

 

*disclaimer* I'm still not sure if Kabsal is to believed in his statements. 

 

 

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I like that idea. If it proofs true I'd add the possibility that Hoid's Trailman's flute might be one. 

 

But there is that: 

 

 

*disclaimer* I'm still not sure if Kabsal is to believed in his statements. 

 

Thanks for the comment, Meg! Yeah, I remembered that part while I was writing the theory, which is why I added a bit of uncertainty in my statement about who exactly used the Dawnshards. If the Dawnsingers really were spren (though I doubt it), then perhaps they were bonded to those who used the Dawnshards back in ancient times, whoever they were.

Edited by skaa
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Sound is a wave so it might have something to do with the symmetry mentioned in other threads, maybe it is a device that can generate a standing wave of shardic power in order to create or bind.

 

Yeah, I think they would be "magic wave"-producing devices. My theory was partly inspired by the "waveforms are Roshar's focus" theory, which I currently espouse (see my sig).

 

From what we've seen so far, music is involved in at least a few of Roshar's magic systems. I just thought that combining music with the waveforms theory seemed like an obvious fit. And since we do not yet know what kind of objects the Dawnshards were, I decided to provide my own theory based on the magical music idea and the naming coincidences I mentioned (Dawnshards, Dawnsingers, etc.).

Edited by skaa
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Have you heard the theory that the Parshendi are the Dawnsingers? Maybe the Dawnshards were a gift to their race, to go along with their racial singing, comparable to the investiture given to Humans in choosing 10 Heralds.

That leads into asking "What happened to the Dawnshards?" though. Maybe Odium corrupted them to make the Unmade, the Parshendi's dark gods. Oops...

Edited by Morsk
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  • 3 weeks later...

If you read closely through WoK, there are several places that imply that waves/sound is magically important. When we see Jasnah soulcast the boulder, Shallan imagines that she can hear a "single, perfect note" just as it transforms. Later, she finds some books that mention that humming can facilitate soulcasting using fabrials. 

 

Also - anyone notice how a basic soulcaster, that can do one thing only, has a single gemstone (the one we see the Ghostblood use to make the wall turn into smoke), while the greater ones have three gemstones that can be swapped out? And remember how Kabsal tells Shallan that to use a soulcaster, you just touch what you want to change and tap the gemstone? Anyone else think this sounds (no pun intended) like a musical instrument? For a single note (essence) you tap a single key/gemstone. For a more complex object consisting of multiple essences you tap a combination of notes, thereby making a chord. Of note, most chords in music are made from three notes.

 

I just had to look all this stuff up on wikipedia since I have the musical knowledge and skill of a tugboat, but I'm sure someone with more knowledge will take up the thread.

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i think you go to far with the soulcasters.

 

you would make "music" with youre mouse/keyboard too, because you use/tap different buttons.

a soulcaster is more like a crude tool for me, which propably interacts with youre mind.

we are lacking alot of info here too.

 

i can agree that music maybe part/enhances of magic. but not of the tool =)

just see the other fabricals, the seem like tools you turn on/of.

 

 

on another note, would be funny seeing Szeth breathing in stormlight and play a flute with it lol.

 

about the sound you hear when something is soulcast to smoke/gas.

brandon said there is no wight loss by soulcasting, so if you turn something so smoke/gas, then this is compressed smoke/gas.

there is no force holding it together so it will expand very quickly, creating sound.

 

you can be right and there is additional sound, by using magic, but in this case there has to be sound, because of the expansion.

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Also - anyone notice how a basic soulcaster, that can do one thing only, has a single gemstone (the one we see the Ghostblood use to make the wall turn into smoke), while the greater ones have three gemstones that can be swapped out?

 

When did we see this?  The only Ghostbloods that we have seen are Kabsal, Shallan's father (though whether he was a Ghostblood or just backed by them is unclear), and her father's steward.  I don't recall seeing a soulcaster at all except for the broken and 'repaired' soulcaster Shallan had.  Jasnah's of course was not actually a soulcaster.  And I think it would be unlikely for there to be much variation in appearance between soulcasters.  Otherwise Shallan's plan to swap soulcasters would have had a substantial and glaring fault.

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When did we see this?  The only Ghostbloods that we have seen are Kabsal, Shallan's father (though whether he was a Ghostblood or just backed by them is unclear), and her father's steward.  I don't recall seeing a soulcaster at all except for the broken and 'repaired' soulcaster Shallan had.  Jasnah's of course was not actually a soulcaster.  And I think it would be unlikely for there to be much variation in appearance between soulcasters.  Otherwise Shallan's plan to swap soulcasters would have had a substantial and glaring fault.

In the Szeth Interlude called "A Work of Art".     Part of that Interlude includes: 

"The figure opened his hand, revealing a gemstone suspended in his palm by a chain wrapped around his fingers.  Sitting beside it, now illuminated, was Szeth’s Oathstone. The figure’s face was dark; he wore a mask."

and 

"The chained gemstone on the man’s palm flashed. The wall vanished, turned to smoke. A Soulcaster."

 

Hope that helps!

 

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about the sound you hear when something is soulcast to smoke/gas.

brandon said there is no wight loss by soulcasting, so if you turn something so smoke/gas, then this is compressed smoke/gas.

there is no force holding it together so it will expand very quickly, creating sound.

 

you can be right and there is additional sound, by using magic, but in this case there has to be sound, because of the expansion.

 

I am not sure you can equte the sound of a rapidly expanding gas and a 'perfect note'.

 

In the real world, an equivalent mass of smoke packed densly enough to be the same size as a stone block would be under a ridiculous amount of pressure. The noise and effect of its expansion would be more like an explosion and the shockwave would certainly be enough to knock people over (it would be like a compressed gas cylinder exploding without the shrapnel).

 

Obviously, the 'magic' makes creative license possible such that soulcasting does not create the pressure diffrentials that should arise because of it (e.g creating stone out of air should suck all the surrounding air in to fill the resulting void when an equivalent mass of gas is transmuted, this does not happen).

 

The perfect note Shallan hears then seems more likely to be related to the 'magic' than to the expanding ball of smoke.

 

In short, I agree that there is compelling evidence of a musical link with soulcasting. Whether this is cause or effect is another matter though.

Edited by MadRand
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I am not sure you can equte the sound of a rapidly expanding gas and a 'perfect note'.

 

In the real world, an equivalent mass of smoke packed densly enough to be the same size as a stone block would be under a ridiculous amount of pressure. The noise and effect of its expansion would be more like an explosion and the shockwave would certainly be enough to knock people over (it would be like a compressed gas cylinder exploding without the shrapnel).

 

Obviously, the 'magic' makes creative license possible such that soulcasting does not create the pressure diffrentials that should arise because of it (e.g creating stone out of air should suck all the surrounding air in to fill the resulting void when an equivalent mass of gas is transmuted, this does not happen).

 

The perfect note Shallan hears then seems more likely to be related to the 'magic' than to the expanding ball of smoke.

 

In short, I agree that there is compelling evidence of a musical link with soulcasting. Whether this is cause or effect is another matter though.

 

I just reread this scene yesterday.  It is pretty clear that the musical note Shallan hears is part of the magic, as is Jasnah's hand sinking into the boulder.  Not just a physical side-effect.

 

I would also note, though, that after the boulder was transformed, Shallan had to yawn to clear her ears.  She said it was like coming down from a high mountain.  There was a purely physical pressure change associated with the transformation as well.  It was also completely separate from the note.

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  • 2 weeks later...

/>I just reread this scene yesterday. It is pretty clear that the musical note Shallan hears is part of the magic, as is Jasnah's hand sinking into the boulder. Not just a physical side-effect.

I would also note, though, that after the boulder was transformed, Shallan had to yawn to clear her ears. She said it was like coming down from a high mountain. There was a purely physical pressure change associated with the transformation as well. It was also completely separate from the note.

This reminds me of a stamp sinking into a forged object.

edit: possibly a direct manipulation of the spiritual aspect of the object.

Edited by Khmauv
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  • 5 weeks later...

im probably wrong, but i think the dawnshards are or were the shards that were wielded by the heralds

When you say "shard" do you mean a set of magic plate armor and blade, or a type of permanent investiture? I really like the idea that Heralds have a huge chunk of power from the Almighty, and previously posted this thread wondering if Dawnshards are actually SHARDS. I'm still a supporter of the idea that the dawn shards are a type of permanent Investiture, but some of the quotes in that thread raise questions. Summarized: the Heralds are not Slivers, have never held the power of an entire shard and may have existed before the Almighty was splintered. That leaves me to speculate they hold some form of power greater than a splinter but smaller than a shard.

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So knowing what we do about Roshar, how likely is it that the Dawnshards cause a Cognitive change, thereby causing a physical change? And what is a pretty language-barrier free way of getting ideas across?

 

That said, yay someone referenced the Dawnsingers are the Parshendi theory. I still think it's the truth, although tying into this I wonder if they maybe aren't some kind of amplifier for the waveform given off by the Dawnshard.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This topic has blown my mind. The only times I really paid attention to the "music" part was the note when Soulcasting, which I attributed to the boulder changing form, and the use of the bow against metal to create a musical note to show the forms of the cities made of sand. (Which it doesn't look like anyone mentioned yet.)

I don't think that the Soulcaster bit is so simply "all lesser Soulcasters have only one gem and greater have three." I feel like it simply depends on what it was originally needed for as to how it was made.

Taking into account the fact that we know that Jasnah and Shallan enter Shadesmar in order to Soulcast object. I imagine that her hand sinking into the boulder was an effect of her interacting with the cognitive form of the object and some form of temporal displacement between the two realms.

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  • 2 years later...

Music can often change the way you feel. Only the most heartless can listen to many sad songs, pay attention to them, and not feel at least a little sad. This works well with the Listeners having to attune different Rhythms to attract different spren: They are attracted to emotions, and the Rhythm, combined with the state of mind, apparently create the necessary emotional state to bond a spren in the Listener fashion.

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