Jump to content

Did ati set himself up?


king of nowhere

Recommended Posts

I had this idea in my head for a while, but I never posted it because I don't think there's any way, save for word of god, to prove or disprove it.

We know from "the letter" that ati was a good and charitable person before he took the shard Ruin. We also know that the shard warps the mind of the holder to fit its intent, but it takes time. So ati, a good person, took some time to become evil while holding ruin. And during all that time, he would at some point realize that he would become Ruin, and there would be nothing he could do about it.

So, what if he struck his deal with preservation knowing fully well that preservation would betray him, and hoping for it? What if he had reasoned a way to put himself in a position where, even after the intent of his shard took over his will, preservation would eventually win?

 

I don't really have any hard evidence for it, but there's no evidence against it either. And it would fit in the story. I mean, ruin has shown enough scheming capability, he would not be surprised by preservation trapping him, unless ati had managed to sabotage his own shard.

 

Thoughts?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

......This.....actually is a pretty damnation cool theory.  Like you said, its very hard to prove but its a bit mind blowing to think about or imagine the possibilities actually.

 

I wish we had more of a sense of time and scale in the cosmere.  From what Brandon's said, it seems it takes thousands of years for a Shard's Intent to really warp its Shardholder, but how long did Ruin and Preservation hold their Shards before they settled on Scadrial or recreated man there, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, what if he struck his deal with preservation knowing fully well that preservation would betray him, and hoping for it? What if he had reasoned a way to put himself in a position where, even after the intent of his shard took over his will, preservation would eventually win?

 

That would be so cool if it was true! I would also like to see a novel (Sanderson or not) with that premise: a man trying to outwit his future evil self without the option of immediate suicide, knowing that his future self would be aware of the plan.

Edited by skaa
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This idea does sound really cool, but I think there are a couple things that might be problematic. 1) We know from WoB that Ruin couldn't see into the future, so there's no way he would have absolute proof of his eventual degeneration into evil and 2) Unless I'm mistaken, Ati and Leras were among the first (only?) wave of people to become Shards, so they wouldn't have automatically known about the Shards taking over their personalities with Intent.

 

Now, if Ati became aware of his changing attitude, he might have done something like this. I just don't know if that would be feasible, because I think the Intent completely erases the original personality of a Shard. So if he became aware of the changes, he'd care less and less about them being evil...because he's becoming evil.

Edited by PallonianFire
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also think this is a cool idea.  It does give us a little sense of time scope though.  We know from the letter that Ruin corrupted Ati. We know that it takes a looong time for such a corruption or change of the holder by the Shard to occur.  And we know that, in the books written, Mistborn happened quite a long time ago (but after Elantris).

 

However, Pallonian brings up an up-vote worthy point:  How would Ati know that Ruin would corrupt him?

 

I am somewhat open to him noticing changes in himself, but the deal he made with Preservation would be some hugely long-term planning for an end-game play to stop himself. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This idea does sound really cool, but I think there are a couple things that might be problematic. 1) We know from WoB that Ruin couldn't see into the future, so there's no way he would have absolute proof of his eventual degeneration into evil and 2) Unless I'm mistaken, Ati and Leras were among the first (only?) wave of people to become Shards, so they wouldn't have automatically known about the Shards taking over their personalities with Intent.

 

Just a point of clarification:  Can Ruin not see into the future at all, or is he just bad at it, compared to Preservation?  I've always assumed it was the latter.  After all, burning Ruin's distilled power (Atium) allows puny humans to see a little bit into the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a point of clarification:  Can Ruin not see into the future at all, or is he just bad at it, compared to Preservation?  I've always assumed it was the latter.  After all, burning Ruin's distilled power (Atium) allows puny humans to see a little bit into the future.

 

I think you're right, in that Ruin is just bad at it. However, in this case, I think that comes to the same thing. He'd have no clue via future-seeing that he'd turn evil until it was already happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you're right, in that Ruin is just bad at it. However, in this case, I think that comes to the same thing. He'd have no clue via future-seeing that he'd turn evil until it was already happening.

 

It depends, it really does.

 

We don't have many descriptions of how future sight works in the Cosmere.  As far as I know, the only first-hand knowledge we have at a shardic level is

from Dalinar's vision at the end of WoK, from Honor's own mouth,

where we learn that the future is like shattering glass, constantly splitting.  We also learn that not all shards are equally good at it.

 

I'm assuming that something that is very, very likely, like Ruin becoming, well, ruinous, would be visible in all futures, pretty much regardless.  I don't think you'd have to be particularly good at it to spot something like that coming down the pike, regardless of details.

 

In short, I totally think Ati could see the changes coming.  It's not like it's subtle.  Now the predictions Preservation made to counter Ruin?  Those were subtle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It depends, it really does.

 

We don't have many descriptions of how future sight works in the Cosmere.  As far as I know, the only first-hand knowledge we have at a shardic level is

from Dalinar's vision at the end of WoK, from Honor's own mouth,

where we learn that the future is like shattering glass, constantly splitting.  We also learn that not all shards are equally good at it.

 

I'm assuming that something that is very, very likely, like Ruin becoming, well, ruinous, would be visible in all futures, pretty much regardless.  I don't think you'd have to be particularly good at it to spot something like that coming down the pike, regardless of details.

 

In short, I totally think Ati could see the changes coming.  It's not like it's subtle.  Now the predictions Preservation made to counter Ruin?  Those were subtle.

 

 

Yeah, I suppose it all comes down to in what manner Ruin is "bad at seeing the future". Cuz if it's not a time-based weakness, but rather a detail-based deficiency, he definitely could have still percieved his own transformation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way I picture it, ati slowly realizess he's changing. HE understands the ultimate result of it. at this point he's already partially changed, but there's still enough of the old ati to fight it. So he tries to plan something. Well, I don't see ruin capability of seeing the future as a real problem. You don't have to see the future to be a devious cunning schemer. The original plan after all wasn't that complicated: ati could have thought something like this

we make a world together. then leras betray me and traps me by sacrificing his consciousness. once every thousand year, there's a chance a mortal will set me free. ruin will have taken control by then, and will try to be freed. at the same time, also preservation's power would be available for a mortal to take. So ruin is freed, a mortal get preservation shard, he or she uses that power to kill ruin. That would free both shards at the same time, in the same place, so that another human can get both shards. the new entity will become harmony, and the power of ruin would be rendered harmless. Will it work? I don't know, but I can't think of anything better. I hope leras can work out the details in this, he's better than me at that

All tthis do not require any particular divine power from ati to be conceived.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

The way I picture it, ati slowly realizess he's changing. HE understands the ultimate result of it. at this point he's already partially changed, but there's still enough of the old ati to fight it. So he tries to plan something. Well, I don't see ruin capability of seeing the future as a real problem. You don't have to see the future to be a devious cunning schemer. The original plan after all wasn't that complicated: ati could have thought something like this

All tthis do not require any particular divine power from ati to be conceived.

Ati was once a kind and generous person. Supposedly Shard are attracted to people of similar personality of their own traits.  It always bothered me that kind/generous and Ruin don't add up, but a plan to "turn a liability into an asset"? I like this. Up vote for you.

 

My 2¢ on future sight. Honor, who isn't good at it, says looking further into the future is like a shattered window. I think a house of mirrors might be a more adept metaphor. In Ati's case 'every where I look is a monster wearing my face.' It might, just might, make him martyr himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I suppose it all comes down to in what manner Ruin is "bad at seeing the future". Cuz if it's not a time-based weakness, but rather a detail-based deficiency, he definitely could have still percieved his own transformation.

 

I've always assumed it was a matter of practice and inclination.

In other words, all the shards are equally capable, in some abstract sense, of seeing the future.  How good they are at it depends on how much their Intent drives them to practice and care.

Preservation would thus practice a lot more than Ruin, as for Preservation to fulfill his Intent, he would have to know the long-term consequences of just about everything.  Checking the futures in detail would be second nature.  Ruin, on the other hand, would have hardly any reason to look more than a few moves ahead in normal circumstances.  Once you've Ruined something, it tends to stay that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...