Difference in Honorspren

[Kiwi]

So I'm doing an actual re-read of The Way of Kings, since the last few times I've listened to it on audiobook.  Gives me time to analyze sentences to see if there are things I missed in the audiobooks.  Well there was something I caught, and I don't believe I've seen it mentioned before.

 

This is in Ch. 11, Location 2834 of 18313 on my e-book.  A scene with Kaladin and Syl at the Honor Chasm.

 

"They would have died more quickly without you.  You made it so they had a family in the army.  I remember their gratitude.  It's what drew me in the first place..." (Emphasis is mine)

 

IIRC, it's been said there are different general types of spren.  Honorspren, I believe, are different from flamespren, painspren, and others.  I think that's generally accepted at this point.  The regular type of spren, to me, are like a manifestations of a strong concept that "bleeds through" from the cognitive realm to the physical realm.  But Honor is a bit of an abstract concept compared to fire, pain, or fear.

 

From what I've seen, Honorspren attach to one person and draws on their physical pressence to enhance it's cognitive pressence in the world.  But what initially attracts the Honorspren?  It's obviously not when one person thinks everything they do is honorable, because then anyone who thinks they're honorable would attract an Honorspren.

 

I believe this is a significant difference between Honorspren and the other regular types of spren.  I believe they are drawn to a certain person when a large number of other individuals see that one person is acting honorably.  Kaladin's charisma and honorable actions make those around him better people, and in turn they think of him as a prime example of what an "honorable" person should be like.  It's almost like a pre-requisite.  If other people don't see you as honorable, then it would be impossible to attract an Honorspren to yourself.

 

As I'm typing this, it really reminds me of a sort of natural selection.  Spren are probably a natural phenomena created by the Shards that inhabit that world.  The world itself is filled with ideas, and spren are attracted to those ideas.  So naturally, one person who everyone else considers as Honorable, and the best of men, would be rewarded with powers to help mankind.

 

Let me know what you guys think.  Feel free to poke holes in this, or tell me this idea is "so last friday".

[Kurkistan]

Sounds reasonable enough. Out of narcissistic curiosity, is your mention of "manifestations of a strong concept that 'bleeds through' from the cognitive realm to the physical realm" a reference to my own theory, or did you arrive at it independently?

 

I would give some small amount of weight to the perceptions of the individual. It probably comes down to Cognitive aspects, which are rightly affected both by how you view yourself and by how others view you. So a Kaladin who did not see himself as particularly honorable, but was held in high regard by others, would still have a Cognitive aspect that stank of honorableness.

 

I would be wary of relying entirely on subjective perceptions of what it is to be honorable, though. I would hazard that Tanavast had a fair amount of influence over the "Form" of honor on Roshar, and that that Form is more rigid than other more "free floating" concepts like Intoxication or Creation. Some proper type of perception is probably necessary to "ring a bell" with that Form, but I think it's more a matter of establishing a correspondence between Kaladin and the Windrunners' version of honor than it is creating a new definition of honor out of whole cloth, not even on a population-wide scale.

[Kiwi]

I have read your theory, so it is definitely a contributing factor, but so are a lot of the threads a read from here.  Come to think of it, it sounds incredibly similar to what you've wrote.  But honestly I was just reading and it hit me, so I just started typing.

 

When you say Tanavast had influence over the "Form" of honor, it reminds me of how children's stories (Moral stories) have influence over what we perceive as "right" and "wrong" behavior in society today.  Why couldn't this be the same concept?  It seems like it would just be Tanavast's opinion of what Honorable behavior looks like, since Tanavast himself was human once.  He helped create life on Roshar, so it would make sense that he might instill his opinion of certain concepts into the people.

 

I'm not really saying it's the deciding factor in bonding with an Honorspren, just that it's an inital attraction that is different from other types Spren.  Who knows?  There may be different types of Honorspren that are attracted to different "perceptions" of Honor, and that's what makes up the different orders.  That's pure speculation of course, but I'm not trying to go there.

[Kurkistan]

I have read your theory, so it is definitely a contributing factor, but so are a lot of the threads a read from here.  Come to think of it, it sounds incredibly similar to what you've wrote.  But honestly I was just reading and it hit me, so I just started typing.

 

Cool, I was just trying to gauge exactly how awesome I am.

 

When you say Tanavast had influence over the "Form" of honor, it reminds me of how children's stories (Moral stories) have influence over what we perceive as "right" and "wrong" behavior in society today.  Why couldn't this be the same concept?  It seems like it would just be Tanavast's opinion of what Honorable behavior looks like, since Tanavast himself was human once.  He helped create life on Roshar, so it would make sense that he might instill his opinion of certain concepts into the people.

 

That seems somewhat plausible, but I was talking about Tanavast affecting what "Honor" is on a bit more of a permanent, higher level. The Shardholder gets to interpret their Shard's intent, to a certain degree, so Tanavast's own opinions and dispositions would determine how the Shard "Honor" and its offshoots would define Honor.

 

If I am wrong, though, and definitions of Honor are all generated "on the ground" by collections of people, Tanavast still might have a bit of a say because he's (presumably) responsible for the Heralds and thus, indirectly, the Radiants. I don't particularly like the idea of the Shard Honor subliminally influencing people's individual opinions and thoughts, though. I know the "papa Shard" of a planet's humans has some small effect on their dispositions, but still. . .

 

I'm not really saying it's the deciding factor in bonding with an Honorspren, just that it's an inital attraction that is different from other types Spren.  Who knows?  There may be different types of Honorspren that are attracted to different "perceptions" of Honor, and that's what makes up the different orders.  That's pure speculation of course, but I'm not trying to go there.

 

So far as attraction goes, that actually raises a very interesting question: Can perceptions affect who draws "dumb" spren? Say that a man has a reputation for cowardice, but is relatively calm on the eve of battle. On a fear scale of 1-10, he's at about a 3 while his comrades around him are at a 5, but all of his comrades are used to him being the most fearful, and so perceive him as being much more afraid than he is, much more afraid than they are. Where will the fearspren go in this case? I think they might very well go to the brave coward.

 

So far as different "perceptions" of Honor for each Order goes, I was trying to go there, but I'll leave it be for the moment.

[Josiah Bills]

This seems plausible, but there is a problem. Aren't most lighteyes perceived by both themselves and others as honorable? I know that there are some cynics in the population who believe that all lighteyes are completely corrupt, Kaladin for example, but the largest majority sees them as upright. If this theory were true then the lighteyes would all be surgebinders simply because of others perception. There may be explinations for this however. Maybe the level of Honor of the people who believe a person to be honorable matters. Since Kaladin had a smaller, but ultimately more honorable group of people believing he was honorable, he was more honorable by association.

[Kiwi]

Cool, I was just trying to gauge exactly how awesome I am.

 

 

That seems somewhat plausible, but I was talking about Tanavast affecting what "Honor" is on a bit more of a permanent, higher level. The Shardholder gets to interpret their Shard's intent, to a certain degree, so Tanavast's own opinions and dispositions would determine how the Shard "Honor" and its offshoots would define Honor.

 

If I am wrong, though, and definitions of Honor are all generated "on the ground" by collections of people, Tanavast still might have a bit of a say because he's (presumably) responsible for the Heralds and thus, indirectly, the Radiants. I don't particularly like the idea of the Shard Honor subliminally influencing people's individual opinions and thoughts, though. I know the "papa Shard" of a planet's humans has some small effect on their dispositions, but still. . .

 

 

So far as attraction goes, that actually raises a very interesting question: Can perceptions affect who draws "dumb" spren? Say that a man has a reputation for cowardice, but is relatively calm on the eve of battle. On a fear scale of 1-10, he's at about a 3 while his comrades around him are at a 5, but all of his comrades are used to him being the most fearful, and so perceive him as being much more afraid than he is, much more afraid than they are. Where will the fearspren go in this case? I think they might very well go to the brave coward.

 

So far as different "perceptions" of Honor for each Order goes, I was trying to go there, but I'll leave it be for the moment.

 

Way awesome, I do love your theories (When I can get through the wall of text...)

 

Exactly, Tanavast ultimately decided what actions are considered "honorable", and I believe that's what influences these "Forms" you spoke of.  I wasn't trying to say that there is some subliminal thought implanted in the population's mind, just that certain actions were deemed honorable by Tanavast, which was passed along to the Heralds, then the Radiants, and finally the entire population. 

 

If each planet could be thought of as a living being with the help of these Shards, the end result is like a natural way to choose "Heroes".  Is that completely true?  Idk, but I think it's a neat idea that has at least a little ground to stand on.  It's plausible at the very least.

 

Remember though, I'm trying to present a case where your scenario of the man known for his cowardice wouldn't happen.  Something like fear isn't as abstract as Honor.  Sure, different people have different thresholds of what might fighten them, but the feeling of fear is universal.  But Honor is much harder to pin point, and therefore needs a different type of spren.  So Spren Group A (of which fearspren are included) are attracted to strong general concepts, and Spren Group B (of which Honorspren are included) are attracted to these abstract concepts, and therefore has a different way of being attracted.

 

The only reason I say I wouldn't go there with the different Orders, is simply because I haven't spent as much time with this book as I have with the Mistborn series.  I don't know that I know enough, or if there is enough information available, to get specific on which different types of Honor may be represented in each Order.  It's really neat thought though, I'll have to keep reading and see if anything jumps out at me.

 

 

This seems plausible, but there is a problem. Aren't most lighteyes perceived by both themselves and others as honorable? I know that there are some cynics in the population who believe that all lighteyes are completely corrupt, Kaladin for example, but the largest majority sees them as upright. If this theory were true then the lighteyes would all be surgebinders simply because of others perception. There may be explinations for this however. Maybe the level of Honor of the people who believe a person to be honorable matters. Since Kaladin had a smaller, but ultimately more honorable group of people believing he was honorable, he was more honorable by association.

 

Good question Josiah, but I think you and I are looking at this differently.  Yes, lighteyes might be generally perceived has honorable, but thats different than a group of people perceiving one person as being honorable.  For example, do you know anyone in your life that, for whatever reason, makes you want to be a better person simply through their actions?  That's way different than thinking a certain percentage of the population (lighteyes in this case) are all honorable.  It's too general, One Honorspren can't bond to an entire people, just to one other person.  When that one person deeply affects the lives of those around him or her, there may be a point when those feelings, accumulated, attract this "other" type of Spren that has the ability to bond with that person.

[Kiwi]

So now that I've had a few days of this rolling around in my head, two questions present themselves to me.

 

1.)  Was Syl originally an Honorspren, and Kaladin mistook her for a Windspren at the beginning?  Or was she originally a Windspren, who transformed into an Honorspren?  

 

2.)  According to the Stormlight Archive Wiki, each Radiant was bonded with a Spren.  Presumably, there were hundreds, if not thousands of Radiants.  If bonding with Spren was such a common occurrence, why is it not now?

 

 

The first question leads me to think that there is something about Windspren that correlates with the Windrunner's ideals.  Through the entire book, Kaladin has this constant inner monologue while he's trying to figure out what kind of man he is.  One who saves lives, or takes lives.  To me, it seems he always comes back to wanting to protect others, which is thought to be the Second Ideal of the Windrunners.  So his honorable actions come from wanting to protect others, and therefore attracts the type of Spren that is associated with the Order with the same ideals.

 

Could other types of Spren also transform into Honorspren?  Could there be certain types of Spren that fall inline with the abilities of the other Orders? Could it be that the type of Spren is dependent on the individual's personal ideals that fall in line with a specific Order?  I don't think there is enough evidence yet to answer these yet, but that's where my thought process is going right now.

 

The second question is kind of me trying to poke holes in my own theory.  It may have something to do with the coming Desolation.  It may be that Honor wasn't splintered at the time of the Radiants, so he could more easily direct the Honorspren to certain individuals (I hope I have the timing correct on his splintering).  Again, I don't think there is enough evidence to come to a solid conclusion yet.

[hoser]

So now that I've had a few days of this rolling around in my head, two questions present themselves to me.

 

1.)  Was Syl originally an Honorspren, and Kaladin mistook her for a Windspren at the beginning?  Or was she originally a Windspren, who transformed into an Honorspren?  

 

2.)  According to the Stormlight Archive Wiki, each Radiant was bonded with a Spren.  Presumably, there were hundreds, if not thousands of Radiants.  If bonding with Spren was such a common occurrence, why is it not now?

 

 

The first question leads me to think that there is something about Windspren that correlates with the Windrunner's ideals.  Through the entire book, Kaladin has this constant inner monologue while he's trying to figure out what kind of man he is.  One who saves lives, or takes lives.  To me, it seems he always comes back to wanting to protect others, which is thought to be the Second Ideal of the Windrunners.  So his honorable actions come from wanting to protect others, and therefore attracts the type of Spren that is associated with the Order with the same ideals.

 

Could other types of Spren also transform into Honorspren?  Could there be certain types of Spren that fall inline with the abilities of the other Orders? Could it be that the type of Spren is dependent on the individual's personal ideals that fall in line with a specific Order?  I don't think there is enough evidence yet to answer these yet, but that's where my thought process is going right now.

 

The second question is kind of me trying to poke holes in my own theory.  It may have something to do with the coming Desolation.  It may be that Honor wasn't splintered at the time of the Radiants, so he could more easily direct the Honorspren to certain individuals (I hope I have the timing correct on his splintering).  Again, I don't think there is enough evidence to come to a solid conclusion yet.

Syl remembers helping men kill before, so I believe that she was an honorspren with the original radiants.  Did she start out as an windspren before that?  I wonder about dragonwasps and splinters.  

There were Radiants when the Heralds packed it in, and it is confirmed that Honor was still around then, so Honor wasn't splintered for part of the Radiant time, at least.

As for the second question.  I think the Radiants discouraged dishonorable surgebinding and few people knew how when they packed it in.  Maybe whatever Gavilar did enabled surgebinding again.  Spren seem to generally be annoyances that people are trained to ignore.  People mostly weren't as honorable as Kaladin. 

[Kurkistan]

Syl remembers helping men kill before, so I believe that she was an honorspren with the original radiants.  Did she start out as an windspren before that?  I wonder about dragonwasps and splinters.  

There were Radiants when the Heralds packed it in, and it is confirmed that Honor was still around then, so Honor wasn't splintered for part of the Radiant time, at least.

 

What's the source on Honor not being splintered before the Recreance? I've been trying to find one for awhile now, but the only one I recall is a RAFO.

 

As for the second question.  I think the Radiants discouraged dishonorable surgebinding and few people knew how when they packed it in.  Maybe whatever Gavilar did enabled surgebinding again.  Spren seem to generally be annoyances that people are trained to ignore.  People mostly weren't as honorable as Kaladin. 

 

Ding ding ding ding, we have a winner. Gavilar was already all philosophical and stuff before the Parshendi showed up, so may have been messing around with Forces Best Not Tampered With and started the ball rolling on the apocalypse.

[Kiwi]

Syl remembers helping men kill before, so I believe that she was an honorspren with the original radiants.  Did she start out as an windspren before that?  I wonder about dragonwasps and splinters. 

 

That's true, I forgot about that.  But the question remains the same, as you mentioned.  It makes me wonder if there is a connection with the Parshendi bonding with Spren to rediscover their variety of forms.

 

There were Radiants when the Heralds packed it in, and it is confirmed that Honor was still around then, so Honor wasn't splintered for part of the Radiant time, at least.

As for the second question.  I think the Radiants discouraged dishonorable surgebinding and few people knew how when they packed it in.  Maybe whatever Gavilar did enabled surgebinding again.  Spren seem to generally be annoyances that people are trained to ignore.  People mostly weren't as honorable as Kaladin. 

 

Okay so I think I have the timing right on the splintering then.  When you say people weren't as honorable as Kaladin, at which point in time are you talking about?  I'm referring to the time period when the Radiants would be considered "in their prime".  Before any possible corruption started to set in, which I believe would have began after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact.

 

I was just about to hit "Post" when I saw Kurkistan's response.  I guess I haven't got far enough in my re-read to remember that Gavilar was doing anything in particular?  Or is this information from WOB?

[Isomere]

So now that I've had a few days of this rolling around in my head, two questions present themselves to me.

 

1.)  Was Syl originally an Honorspren, and Kaladin mistook her for a Windspren at the beginning?  Or was she originally a Windspren, who transformed into an Honorspren?  

 

2.)  According to the Stormlight Archive Wiki, each Radiant was bonded with a Spren.  Presumably, there were hundreds, if not thousands of Radiants.  If bonding with Spren was such a common occurrence, why is it not now?

I like your idea that people attract and bond to a spren by living their lives in harmony with the Ideals of an Order. It seems to be in keeping with Kaladin trying to protect those who are weak. It also seems to relate to Shallan and her obsession with creating a visual archive of Nature, (memory surge fits nicely with an archivist) but may also be related to her keeping such dark secrets given what we know of the Cryptics. Perhaps we will see it with Dalinar and his desire to lead and unite his people, and it makes me curious if Elhokar is hiding some very dark secrets behind the throne. 

 

We really don't have enough info to explain why we haven't seen radiants before, but we do have a time-frame. Surgebinding resurfaced at about the same time as Gavilar started changing which also correlates to the first death rattle. Szeth became a Truthless around that time, and the Parshendi first appeared. I know correlation =/ causation, but any of these could be part of the reason people are bonding Spren again. I like Kiwi's idea connecting this with the desolation, but did the desolation release the spren, or did the Release of the Spren start the desolation?

 

Personally I've been kicking around a theory about the Stoneshamen. Baseless speculation, but could the spren have been trapped in Shinnovar all these years? Szeth may have released them all when he violated the codes of his people and stole a windspren. Gavilar messing around with Powers better left untouched is a good idea too. And we shouldn't discount the coming of the Parshendi seemingly from thin air. 

Edited June 11, 2013 by Isomere

[Kurkistan]

I was just about to hit "Post" when I saw Kurkistan's response.  I guess I haven't got far enough in my re-read to remember that Gavilar was doing anything in particular?  Or is this information from WOB?

 

A small tad of both. Gavilar was already acting odd before they encountered the Parshendi (though I suppose their appearance and the onset of his philosophizing could have simply had the same cause, rather than Gavilar causing the Parshendi to appear)--that was the reason they went on the hunt in the first place: Dalinar wanted to shake his brother out of his funk.

 

The tad is from the Eshonai reading we got awhile back, with it's reference to Gavilar attempting (and succeeding in his attempt) to awaken the Parshendi gods, suggesting that he had a fairly active role in all of this.

[Kiwi]

I like your idea that people attract and bond to a spren by living their lives in harmony with the Ideals of an Order. It seems to be in keeping with Kaladin trying to protect those who are weak. It also seems to relate to Shallan and her obsession with creating a visual archive of Nature, (memory surge fits nicely with an archivist) but may also be related to her keeping such dark secrets given what we know of the Cryptics. Perhaps we will see it with Dalinar and his desire to lead and unite his people, and it makes me curious if Elhokar is hiding some very dark secrets behind the throne. 

 

We really don't have enough info to explain why we haven't seen radiants before, but we do have a time-frame. Surgebinding resurfaced at about the same time as Gavilar started changing which also correlates to the first death rattle. Szeth became a Truthless around that time, and the Parshendi first appeared. I know correlation =/ causation, but any of these could be part of the reason people are bonding Spren again. I like Kiwi's idea connecting this with the desolation, but did the desolation release the spren, or did the Release of the Spren start the desolation?

 

I'm actually wondering if Dalinar's visions have something to do with the power of Honor's Shard.  It's mentioned that he sees things related to the Radiants in the past, and possibly of what is to come.  If I understand it correctly, Dalinar's visions come directly from something Tanavast left behind, sort of like an echo.  Could the splintered Shard be searching for someone to latch onto, to unite it back to it's original state?  Could this be what Gavilar was doing that began the reemergence of the magic system?

 

Personally I've been kicking around a theory about the Stoneshamen. Baseless speculation, but could the spren have been trapped in Shinnovar all these years? Szeth may have released them all when he violated the codes of his people and stole a windspren. Gavilar messing around with Powers better left untouched is a good idea too. And we shouldn't discount the coming of the Parshendi seemingly from thin air. 

 

Are you saying that all Spren were trapped in Shinnovar?  Or just the Spren from Shinnovar were trapped?  I was under the impression that Spren are naturally occuring phenomena specific to Roshar, and have been around since forever.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Kiwi

[hoser]

A small tad of both. Gavilar was already acting odd before they encountered the Parshendi (though I suppose their appearance and the onset of his philosophizing could have simply had the same cause, rather than Gavilar causing the Parshendi to appear)--that was the reason they went on the hunt in the first place: Dalinar wanted to shake his brother out of his funk.

 

The tad is from the Eshonai reading we got awhile back, with it's reference to Gavilar attempting (and succeeding in his attempt) to awaken the Parshendi gods, suggesting that he had a fairly active role in all of this.

And, while dying (in WoK), Gavilar tells Szeth that it is too late, so he apparently has done something.

 

What's the source on Honor not being splintered before the Recreance?

Not what I said.  I would love to know myself. 

 

Kiwi, I'm confused.  I was explicitly responding to your second question, which included "If bonding with Spren was such a common occurrence, why is it not now?"  So when you say, "I'm referring to the time period when the Radiants would be considered "in their prime".  Before any possible corruption started to set in, which I believe would have began after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact." my brain explodes. 

Edited June 11, 2013 by hoser

[Kurkistan]

Not what I said.  I would love to know myself. 

 

Ah, my mistake. Sorry. To rephrase: What's your source on Honor still being alive when the Heralds packed it in?

[hoser]

Ah, my mistake. Sorry. To rephrase: What's your source on Honor still being alive when the Heralds packed it in?

here

 

Question

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

Brandon Sanderson

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

[Kurkistan]

Thanks.

[Isomere]

http://theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=666/#3

 

QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

 

Are you saying that all Spren were trapped in Shinnovar?  Or just the Spren from Shinnovar were trapped?  I was under the impression that Spren are naturally occuring phenomena specific to Roshar, and have been around since forever.

No, I don't think all spren were trapped, just the ones able to bond with KRs. It's a pretty wild speculation and might not stand up to close inspection.

 

EDIT: ninja'd by hoser. The quote has lot's of wiggle room, but strongly suggests that the Splintering of Honor occurred after the Heralds were created. From what I can understand, a lot of people think he was splintered after the Recreance because it was included as a vision, and Tanavast says he directly viewed "most" of the visions. 

Edited June 11, 2013 by Isomere

[Kiwi]

Kiwi, I'm confused.  I was explicitly responding to your second question, which included "If bonding with Spren was such a common occurrence, why is it not now?"  So when you say, "I'm referring to the time period when the Radiants would be considered "in their prime".  Before any possible corruption started to set in, which I believe would have began after the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact." my brain explodes. 

 

I may be getting confused too, so don't feel left out

 

My timeline may be out of wack, but as I understand it the Heralds created the different Orders of the Knights Radiants.  So at one point in time, the Heralds fought along side with the Radiants during the desolations.  Do I have this correct?  Once the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants still carried on for a time, until they abandoned their Shardplate and Shardblades. 

 

So what I'm trying to say is that before the Last Desolation, when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants would be considered "in their prime".  I've read a few speculations that the reason the Radiants abandoned their Plate and Blades could have been because of possible corruption in their ranks since the Heralds weren't coming back.  It could have even been that they figured out that they really hadn't won like they were told.  It could have been they learned that Honor had been splintered.  Idk the correct answer.

 

But anyways, back to my original question.  I'm just wondering what exactly has caused the reemergence of the magic system, and why now?  After the responses today I'm left with more questions, lol.  I'm torn between it having something to do with the amount of time since the last desolation, and it having something to do with what Gavilar was doing (And now Dalinar might be continuing).

[hoser]

I may be getting confused too, so don't feel left out

 

My timeline may be out of wack, but as I understand it the Heralds created the different Orders of the Knights Radiants.  So at one point in time, the Heralds fought along side with the Radiants during the desolations.  Do I have this correct?  Once the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants still carried on for a time, until they abandoned their Shardplate and Shardblades. 

The prelude, wherein nine of the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact (although Taln still seems to have been bound to it), has the following:

There were so many corpses, and among them walked the living.  Men in primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads.  Juxtaposed between them were others in gleaming plate armor.  One group walked past, four men in their ragged tanned skins or shoddy leather joining a powerful figure in beautiful silver plate, amazingly intricate.  Such a contrast.

Jezrien stepped up beside him.

"They see us as divinities," Kalak whispered.   "They rely upon us, Jezrien.  We're all that they have."

"They have the Radiants. That will be enough."

So the Heralds did fight alongside the Radiants. 

This is apparently a bronze age civilization from the hints that BS includes.

Later, at the Recreance, civilization has advanced to the iron age.  I do not currently believe that there were any desolations in between. 

 

The Heralds return immediately after desolations, which seem to be separated by something on the order of centuries.  Dalinar apparently talks to Nohadon following a desolation. The Radiants are formed and Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime.  So the Heralds were not physically present at the founding of the Radiants.  I would guess that someone communed with Tanavast or discovered something he meant to be found to establish the Radiants in accordance with the ideals of the Heralds. 

 

So what I'm trying to say is that before the Last Desolation, when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, the Radiants would be considered "in their prime".  I've read a few speculations that the reason the Radiants abandoned their Plate and Blades could have been because of possible corruption in their ranks since the Heralds weren't coming back.  It could have even been that they figured out that they really hadn't won like they were told.  It could have been they learned that Honor had been splintered.  Idk the correct answer.

 

But anyways, back to my original question.  I'm just wondering what exactly has caused the reemergence of the magic system, and why now?  After the responses today I'm left with more questions, lol.  I'm torn between it having something to do with the amount of time since the last desolation, and it having something to do with what Gavilar was doing (And now Dalinar might be continuing).

Gavilar or Dalinar re-reading the Way of Kings doesn't seem significant,  since the Vanrial community at the Silent mountain (site of Urithiru?) (is that where the Radiants went?) preserved the Way of Kings and the Dawnchant and people have been reading it all along. 

• Gavilar apparently did something irrevocable that may have involved the oddly glowing black sphere, which could have done something. 
• Or maybe things had been set in motion before and the appearance of the Parshendi was an effect of another cause. 
• Maybe Szeth did something that triggered his punishment and the return of the Parshendi. 
• The death rattles started at about the same time. 
• Or maybe Szeth was responding to something. 
• Maybe Taln finally broke or
• 4500 years passed (5000 - 450*Heralds being tortured)

I know nothing...

 

Edited: commented on Heralds founding Radiants

Edited June 11, 2013 by hoser

[Isomere]

I see several strong options for why there was a gap and now suddenly new surgbinders. 

 

1) The Nahelspren were kept separate from the people to prevent bonding.

2) The people were all just too dishonorable for bonding to occur.

3) Gavilar/Szeth/Parshendi did something off page.

 

I really like the idea of Gavilar messing around with the power of the Parshendi Gods triggering something with the Honorspren

 

I also like the idea of the original Radiants hiding their spren from the corrupt world, and creating a trigger to release them when the time was right. 

 

My previous theory about Szeth is interesting, but seems less likely. A Stoneshaman temple filled with Shardblades and trapped Honorspren, unleashed when Szeth broke the seal and released them into the world. 

[Kiwi]

I see several strong options for why there was a gap and now suddenly new surgbinders. 

 

1) The Nahelspren were kept separate from the people to prevent bonding.

2) The people were all just too dishonorable for bonding to occur.

3) Gavilar/Szeth/Parshendi did something off page.

 

I really like the idea of Gavilar messing around with the power of the Parshendi Gods triggering something with the Honorspren

 

I also like the idea of the original Radiants hiding their spren from the corrupt world, and creating a trigger to release them when the time was right. 

 

I actually like those ideas too.  I don't know how much I agree with 2 though.  I mean there had to be at least some people who other people thought were honorable enough to attract an Honorspren.  I agree that the population has become much less honorable than in the past, but everyone is different and eventually someone is going to come along with the right set of ideals.

 

The fact that Gavilar was doing something before he was assassinated, combined with him reading The Way of Kings and following the codes much more towards the end, suggests (to me at least) he wasn't only messing around with the power of the Parshendi Gods, but with other powers as well.

[Meg]

The Heralds return immediately after desolations, which seem to be separated by something on the order of centuries.  Dalinar apparently talks to Nohadon following a desolation. The Radiants are formed and Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime. 

 

 

The Heralds return ...? You refer to "returning to torture?" 

And do we have WoB about "Nohadon founded the KR?"

 

 

 

I see several strong options for why there was a gap and now suddenly new surgbinders. 

 

1) The Nahelspren were kept separate from the people to prevent bonding.

2) The people were all just too dishonorable for bonding to occur.

 

 

Who kept the Nahel-spren seperate? And how? And why should one do this? 

 

I have problems to believe that in centuries there was not one person honorable enough to bind/get bound by an honorspren. That might have not been written somewhere (or not found yet). 

Or do we have real evidence that Kaladin/Syl were the very first spren/human (do spren only get relationship with humans?)? 

 

Edit: adding a question

 

I think there is a limited number of spren that are able to become Honorspren. Maybe only some windspren can change that way. Then it might have been harder for them to find an honorable person. 

 

Syl has definitely been described as a windspren:

 

On a nearby mound, a small figure flitted around the plants, dancing like a fluttering insect. The figure was amorphous, vaguely translucent. Windspren were devious spirits who had a penchant for staying where they weren’t wanted. He’d hoped that this one had gotten bored and left, but as Kaladin tried to toss his wooden bowl aside, he found that it stuck to his fingers.

The windspren laughed, ... (TWoK Ch. 2)

... 

 

“A name,” the windspren said, walking through the air to stand beside his face. She was in the shape of a young woman, complete with flowing skirt and delicate feet. “Sylphrena.”

“Sylphrena,” Kaladin repeated, tying on the sandals.

“Syl,” the spirit said. She cocked her head. “That’s amusing. It appears that I have a nickname.” (TWoK Ch. 6)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2013 by Meg

[Kurkistan]

The Heralds return ...? You refer to "returning to torture?" 

And do we have WoB about "Nohadon founded the KR?"

 

I think it's said outright in the prelude that the Heralds chill about in Damnation between Desolations, popping back onto Roshar each time a new one begins.

 

As for Nohadon founding the KR, I don't think we have WoB. We do know that his ideals, reflected in the book he wrote, were their inspiration, and that Urithru was founded after the KR's formation and before Nohadon's death (as per one of Jasnah's quotes and a story in the in-universe WoK, respectively), so that pretty much nails Nohadon down as at least a major figure in their formation. Either way, it does nail down the time frame of their founding, at least in some form of "organization of honorable surgebinders," as between Desolations.

 

Also, hoser never said "'Nohadon founded the KR'"; he just said "The Radiants are formed and Urithiru founded during Nohadon's lifetime."

 

EDIT: I changed some content a minute or two after posting. Sorry for any inconvenience.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Kurkistan

[hoser]

The Heralds return ...? You refer to "returning to torture?" 

And do we have WoB about "Nohadon founded the KR?"

Yes, returning to torture.

Kurkistan covers the WoB question better than I could.  I would add that Nohadon is wearing the Radiant symbol while he talks to Dalinar in the vision.