Theory: Kaladin feels the Thrill!

[Shardlet]

I looked around for a while but did not see anyone put this idea forward except in tangent posts.  There were only two of those that I found.  In fact, a lot of people have posted saying explicitly that Kaladin does not feel the Thrill as support for the point they are making.  I've tossed around a few ideas before, but this is my <trumpet fanfare> First Theory!
 
So, first off, obviously, Kaladin is never declared to expressly feel "the Thrill".  However, we must remember that this is from Kaladin's POV and if he has never heard of the concept/phenomenon/term "the Thrill", then he would not think in terms of "the Thrill".  So, as a foundational assumption, the Thrill is not a wide-spread phenomenon particularly among darkeyes.  If lighteyes aren't overly keen on talking about it with one another (as appears to be the case), they sure as heck aren't going to discuss it with many darkeyes.
 
"Get on with it!", you shout.  Ok, I will.
 
Let's describe what we know about the Thrill.  All citations in this post are from the US hardcover edition.  All these descriptions of the Thrill are given to us by Dalinar.

 

pg. 298, paragraph 2 - "pain evaporating"

pg. 299, paragraph 6 - "everything seemed to become clearer, crisper.  His muscles moved easily; he breathed more deeply.  He came alive." [emphasis original]

pg. 380, paragraphs 3 and 5- "[the Thrill is] sweet." - "The Thrill consumed Dalinar, giving him strength focus, and power.  The glory of the battle grew grand."

pg. 415, paragraph 7 - "the Thrill--the enjoyment and longing for war"

pg. 777, paragraphs 1 and 4 - "the Thrill pulsing within him" (Isomere should like this one) - "The Thrill excited him, strengthened him".

pg. 780, paragraph 5 - "he felt...displeasure at the Thrill.  Surely these Parshendi...deserved respect, not glee, as they were slaughtered."

pg. 781, paragraph 2 - "He felt strong again, passion for battle returning to him".

pg. 785, paragraph 3 - "He nearly choked on it, the joy, the pleasure, the desire."

pg. 900, paragraphs 2 and 3 - "the Thrill bubbled within.  It was power.  Strength greater than Shardplate.  Vitality greater than youth.  Skill greater than a lifetime of practice.  A fever of power." - "This was life.  This was control."

 

Alright.  There are other references, but these describe what the Thrill feels like to Dalinar.  He clearly feels it intensly when it comes on him.  We must remember that he is a warrior beyond compare, even among the Alethi, the Blackthorn.  Yoda would likely say "the Thrill is strong with this one."  And I think he would be right.  I suspect that the Thrill is heightened in its effect with Dalinar, as compared to other Alethi, judging by some of his descriptions.

 

That being said, now on to Kaladin.  Remember him?  This is a theory about Kaladin.  We have much less battle screen-time with Kaladin than we do with Dalinar.  So, not surprisingly, we have less description about how Kaladin feels during battle.

Let's go back about 7 years to when Kaladin first hefts a quarterstaff <wavy line fade-out to page 254, paragraph near the bottom>.

- "Kal growled in anger and pain, snatching the quarterstaff from the ground and leaping at Jost...Something changed in that moment.  Kal felt an energy as he held the weapon, an excitement that washed away his pain...the length of wood felt right in his fingers.  He was amazed by how wonderful the moment felt." 

 

While the above quote may adequately be described as an adrenaline rush, it has a familiar ring to it.

 

pg. 668, 3rd paragraph from the bottom - "He was like water running down a hill, flowing, always moving.  Spearheads flashed in the air around him...Not one hit him.  He could not be stopped, not when he felt like this.  When he had the energy of defending the fallen, the power of standing to protect one of his men."  It goes on to mention an odd breeze that enveloped him where there had been no breeze before.

 

Now, we begin to enter into complications with Syl muddying the waters here since I believe that some of the effects may be resulting from her (especially the breeze).  However, there is no indication of consumption of stormlight at this point, so I think any external benefit to Kaladin is minimal.  I think it is more Syl being attracted to Kaladin and exulting in his honorable actions.

 

pg. 932, 1st paragraph after the dots - "For the first time in many, many months Kaladin felt fully awake and alive.  The beauty of the spear, whistling in the air.  The unity of body and mind, hands and feet reacting instantly, faster than thoughts could be formed.  The clarity and familiarity of old spear forms...His weapon was an extension of himself...with stormlight making and ecstatic pulse within him, he felt a rhythm to the battle."  A few paragraphs further - "Killing.  Slaughtering.  blood flew in the air and the dying groaned at his feet...They were the enemy.  Yet the sheer glory of what he did seemed at odds with the desolation he caused.  He was protecting.  He was saving.  Yet he was killing.  How could something so terrible be so beautiful at the same time?"   

 

Okay, in the last quote, Kaladin is in full stormlight mode.  There will be an effect of the stormilight on the things he feels, I presume.  But, the similarities in Dalinar's and Kaladin's feelings are clear.  Now, there has been much theorizing on whether the Thrill is bad or good.  I think there is a Good Thrill and a Bad Thrill.  Kaladin's flashback scene would be Bad Thrill (anger is the driving force), the other two are Good Thrill (defending and protecting is the driving force).  Most of Dalinar's thrill is Bad Thrill (conquest is the driving force).  At the conclusion of the Battle of the Tower, Dalinar's Thrill is the Good Thrill (driven by the need to save his soldiers and to live).  I think it is notable that this Thrill appears to be the most powerful Thrill he describes in the book.

 

So, I know this post is massive, but there is my argument that Kaladin feels the Thrill.  What do you guys think?

 

[Leuthie]

I actually think the Thrill is Odium's little silent contribution, making spreading Hate much more effective and enjoyable. Lighteyes have a little capt...Odium in them. Hence why Odium reigns. Yes, that would mean Dalinar has been "powered" by Odium as a youth. As an older man he's Ben moving away from Hate and toward Honor, killing his Thrill a bit.

Kaladin gets power from Syl, from Honor. Similar effect, different source.

[Leuthie]

I have to add that, at several points, Dalinar feel.nausea after or instead of the Thrill during battle. I attribute this to his Honorspren fighting whatever it is that causes the Thrill. Opposing Intents (Odium and Honor) and opposing personal intents (proving one's own worth fighting others and protecting others) causing two opposing magic systems to battle over who gets to make Dalinar awesome.

[Khmauv]

This is an interesting line of discussion that I hadn't seen before. The thrill seems, to me, to be a side effect of investiture. On Nalthis investiture seems to have the effect of heightening certain innate attributes. Breath increases life sense, ability to heal, ability to sense harmonics in color and sound. Another extreme case is the power of the well of ascension. It expands the mind to understand how to use the power.

 

I wonder if this is what Dalinar and Kaladin are experiencing. A heightened awareness, reduced pain, greater control of self, all due to investiture. If this is the case, then I think Leuthie is on to something. Whose power are they invested with and how, exactly, is that power being used and manifest?

[Shardlet]

I don't think your second comment is contrary to the Theory, Leuthie.  Like I said, I think there are two sides to the Thrill coin.  I think both Dalinar and Kaladin have exhibited both sides. 

 

In previous discussions on the Thrill, it was frequently postulated (based on the KR comments in Starfalls) that the Thrill can be good or bad.  I think the KR were able to harness the Thrill which is why they want everyone who wants to fight to go to Urithuru.  So they can learn how to prevent the Thrill from corrupting them. 

 

Kaladin appears to have felt something at least akin to the Thrill when he fought out of pain and anger.  Dalinar became nauseated when he saw the baseness of his glory in the slaughter of the Parshendi for no practical purpose other than to get gain.  But, they both appear to have experienced heightened forms of the Thrll when their motivation for fighting was good and honorable.

 

Your comments make a lot of sense Kmauv.  There are some details that need to be addressed though.  The Thrill seems (so far) to be an Alethi trait.  We know that many came from nations other than Alethela to become KR, but it seems that most came from Alethela.  If a side effect, then why is it so strong with a single nation?  Also, in its, apparently, most common form, the Thrill smacks a lot of Odium's intent.  I am inclined to think it is an investiture of Odium that can and was hi-jacked and heightened by Honor and/or Cultivation (probably Honor).

[Shardbearer]

I think this is an interesting discussion. I do agree that Kaladin feels the Thrill during that flashback. I don't know whether Honor or Cultivation "hi-jacked" the Thrill, but rather that the Thrill is a result of the Roshar Spiritweb interacting with any innate investiture.

[Khmauv]

Your comments make a lot of sense Kmauv.  There are some details that need to be addressed though.  The Thrill seems (so far) to be an Alethi trait.  We know that many came from nations other than Alethela to become KR, but it seems that most came from Alethela.  If a side effect, then why is it so strong with a single nation?  Also, in its, apparently, most common form, the Thrill smacks a lot of Odium's intent.  I am inclined to think it is an investiture of Odium that can and was hi-jacked and heightened by Honor and/or Cultivation (probably Honor).

Geography does play a role in the manifestation of magic, as we know from Sel.

[Leuthie]

Identity plays a role in general. Geography has been a unique trait to Sel.

Clarification, not disagreement.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Identity plays a role in general. Geography has been a unique trait to Sel.

Clarification, not disagreement.

 

As far as I can tell, land you're born in matters for everyone

http://mistbornrpg.17thshard.com/topic/230-questions-for-brandon/page__st__20

In the Cosmere, a person has three sets of genetic material. Biological DNA, Personality/Cognative self, Spiritual Soul. All are influenced by heritage and parents. All all are also influenced by the land you are born in. A Punnett square wouldn't cover it. Think of a 4-dimensional Punnett square.

-8/2/2010

[Aethling]

Until Sanderson specifically states otherwise, my position is that the thrill is nothing more than a normal human reaction.  Almost every one of the symptoms corresponds nicely to what you see in descriptions of an adrenalin dump or a battle haze.  Truthfully, it isn't even all that original.  Chereks get something extremely close in the Garion books.  Richard could possibly be included from the Sword of Truth books.  There are several instances of it happening in the Mazalan books.  I seem to remember something close happening in the Wheel of Time books...  It is well documented that the normal human body can do seemingly miraculous things when stressed

 

Much has been made of Dalinar's "sickness" as being an affect of the thrill.  I don't believe it is that as much as his conscience catching up to him.  He has matured beyond the hack and slash stage to view his enemies as actual people.

[The Rooster]

Until Sanderson specifically states otherwise, my position is that the thrill is nothing more than a normal human reaction.  Almost every one of the symptoms corresponds nicely to what you see in descriptions of an adrenalin dump or a battle haze.  Truthfully, it isn't even all that original.  Chereks get something extremely close in the Garion books.  Richard could possibly be included from the Sword of Truth books.  There are several instances of it happening in the Mazalan books.  I seem to remember something close happening in the Wheel of Time books...  It is well documented that the normal human body can do seemingly miraculous things when stressed

 

Much has been made of Dalinar's "sickness" as being an affect of the thrill.  I don't believe it is that as much as his conscience catching up to him.  He has matured beyond the hack and slash stage to view his enemies as actual people.

 

Honestly Aethling,  I at first thought this was a bad theory.  Now the the more I think about it I could really see Brandon responding "Ahh I was wondering if anyone would ask that" if questioned about it.  Making this seemingly totally phisological reaction actually part of shard investeture is totally his bag.

[skaa]

I like this theory. I also believe that the Thrill is a Realmatic phenomenon. I think the different kinds of Thrill we've seen so far are either Honor-based or Odium-based.

Hmmm... I wonder if Shin farmers feel a Thrill when cultivating their crops...

[blackmagic3]

I feel compelled to point out that everyone who mentions the thrill wears shardplate.

[Shardlet]

I feel compelled to point out that everyone who mentions the thrill wears shardplate.

 

 

If the Thrill is known as "the Thrill" to only the lighteyes, and the only lighteyed fighters that we have had POV's of are shardbearers, then I would expect that we would only hear about "the Thrill" from shardbearers. 

 

For example, if you felt cold but did not know the word "cold", you would not talk about feeling "cold".  You would describe only the sensations you experience when you are cold. 

 

If Kaladin, does experience theThrill, and is not familiar with the concept of "the Thrill" then he would not use that name to describe the sensations he is experiencing.

[blackmagic3]

That is true but in fantasy such distinctions in the name can be all difference. Another point is that when Dalinar feels the thrill he is killing but when we are in Kaladins POV he rarely ever kills when he feels those emotions with the exception of killing to protect. I believe that intent plays some small role in Roshar...

[Shardlet]

That is true but in fantasy such distinctions in the name can be all difference. Another point is that when Dalinar feels the thrill he is killing but when we are in Kaladins POV he rarely ever kills when he feels those emotions with the exception of killing to protect. I believe that intent plays some small role in Roshar...

 

I believe intent plays an enormous role.  Especially on Roshar.  To clarify my statements above on this point, I believe that the intent of the (bearer?) of the Thrill is critical to the nature of the Thrill and the effects thereof.  Whether Dalinar's original Thrill is originally of Odium or whether Odium corrupted the Thrill created by Honor (or whoever/whatever) is unclear to me.  But it seems clear to me, even based on the limited evidence I have presented in the OP, that when the intent of the bearer (of the Thrill) is honorable, then the Thrill is heightened to a stronger and purer form.

 

This is most evident in Dalinar's record.  When he feels the Thrill at the Battle of the Tower when fighting for his survival and for the survival of his soldiers (whom he is clearly genuinely concerned for as people not as resources) the description of the effects of the Thrill at least seem to be more vivid and powerful than his previous description of the the Thrill.  His intent is critical in reaching this higher level of the Thrill. 

[Dysphoric Kitten]

I beg to differ.

The first quote is an adrenaline rush, for Kal couldn't have had the thrill with absolutely no weapon-related past.

The second is already Sylphrena's influence - she was known to prank Kaladin just a bit before that. (I believe premature dun spheres are mentione at about that time, too. also, if he was consuming, he'd feel more - and fainter - things, like minute breezes)

The third is complicated. It might have slight thrill influence, but it is mainly composed of stormlight and father issues, as far as my eye can see.

[Shardlet]

The first quote is an adrenaline rush, for Kal couldn't have had the thrill with absolutely no weapon-related past.

 

How can you justify the certainty of this statement?  I don't recall anything in the book which says that a weapon-related past is neceaary to feel the Thrill.

 

 

The second is already Sylphrena's influence - she was known to prank Kaladin just a bit before that. (I believe premature dun spheres are mentione at about that time, too. also, if he was consuming, he'd feel more - and fainter - things, like minute breezes)

The third is complicated. It might have slight thrill influence, but it is mainly composed of stormlight and father issues, as far as my eye can see.

 

If anything, I'm more inclined to think that the third quote is more likely to be be solely the influence of Syl and the bond.  I'm not sure why you would be willing to accept the Thrill as having a part in the Tower battle, but deny the possibility in the Amaram battle.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

/>How can you justify the certainty of this statement? I don't recall anything in the book which says that a weapon-related past is neceaary to feel the Thrill.

It was not said. I am making a very educated and calculated guess that the thrill is not GENETICALLY HEREDITARY. If it is, I was wrong. If it is not, nothing in Kal's childhood has made him have the thrill, and it is said to be of the Alethi, who are the warring nation. I would say it is their culture around armies, and the more time you were in those, the more ingrained the thrill is. Therefore, according to my estimation (deliberate choice of words), the later, the more likely.

Again, I just might be wrong.

/>If anything, I'm more inclined to think that the third quote is more likely to be be solely the influence of Syl and the bond. I'm not sure why you would be willing to accept the Thrill as having a part in the Tower battle, but deny the possibility in the Amaram battle.

I did not deny the possibility, I said I deem it less likely. My previous paragraph applies here, too.

Also, if you look at my original phrasing, you can see that I am leaning towards your position. I have a a slight tendency to make my statements closer to my conversation partners' views than I actually feel.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

/>How can you justify the certainty of this statement? I don't recall anything in the book which says that a weapon-related past is neceaary to feel the Thrill.

It was not said. I am making a very educated and calculated guess that the thrill is not GENETICALLY HEREDITARY. If it is, I was wrong. If it is not, nothing in Kal's childhood has made him have the thrill, and it is said to be of the Alethi, who are the warring nation. I would say it is their culture around armies, and the more time you were in those, the more ingrained the thrill is. Therefore, according to my estimation (deliberate choice of words), the later, the more likely.

Again, I just might be wrong.

/>If anything, I'm more inclined to think that the third quote is more likely to be be solely the influence of Syl and the bond. I'm not sure why you would be willing to accept the Thrill as having a part in the Tower battle, but deny the possibility in the Amaram battle.

I did not deny the possibility, I said I deem it less likely. My previous paragraph applies here, too.

Also, if you look at my original phrasing, you can see that I am leaning towards your position. I have a a slight tendency to make my statements closer to my conversation partners' views than I actually feel.

[Gloom]

Hmmm, I always linked the thrill to shards. Shardblades and shardplate weren't designed for those unbound by spren. We know that physiological changes can occur when a shardbearer first takes possession of their shards, we know that shards alter the mind and body by allowing increased speed, reflexes, and strength, at least in the case of shardplate. Dark eyes can become light eyes. Szeth being the only known exception. I don't believe that Kaladin feels the thrill, because Kaladin has never held a shard.

 

If feeling the thrill is a surgebinder trait, then why aren't there any shardbearers other than Szeth that can surgebind. A better question might be why doesn't Szeth appear to feel the thrill? I would attribute this to the fact that he is insulated from it through surge binding. Equally important would be why Kaladin refuses to touch a shard?

 

Dalinar is under a great deal of influence from outside forces. He is being conditioned through his dreams and his study of The Way of Kings to become an acceptable candidate to a symbiotic spren type. Dalinar is not yet, nor are any other shardbearers other than Szeth, a surgebinder. Whatever force makes Dalinar feel the thrill, was in direct conflict with his core beliefs, hense he felt ill until those beliefs and the thrill were in alignment.

 

In my opinion, to argue that both Dalinar and Kaladin feel the thrill is an argument that the thrill is a natural human reaction, possibly augmented by shards and surgebinding. Possibly genetically linked to Alethila.

[Shardlet]

First off, wlecome Gloom.  I am always glad to hear a new voice with a new perspective and ideas. 

 

However, in this case, I am inclined to disagree.  I think you have some cart-before-the-horse relationships and some slippery slope assumptions.  Since I have already given my views on why nobody except shardbearers have mentioned the Thrill, I'll forgo addressing this point.  I don't think plate causes a direct physiological enhancement.  I liken it more to the exoskeleton apparati being developed by the military to give soldiers enhanced abilities.  I don't recall seeing anything in TWoK to suggest any enhancement of reflexes (or any other mental enhancement).  Just outward physical enhancement like the strength and speed you cited. 

 

I also have not seen any indication that the Thrill is tied to surgebinding in any way.  The people we know feel the Thrill are Sadeas, Dalinar, and Adolin.  But, none of them have demonstrated any recognizable surgebinding abilities (yet).  The closest I recall seeing so far is Dalinar's glowiness in certain circumstances.

 

As to Szeth, his surgebinding comes from a different source than radiant surgebinding (i.e., he is not bonded with a spren).  He is also Shin which is a race substantially different than any other mentioned races in the book.  He also does not ever mention anything feelings or sensations resembling the Thrill even though we see him fight several times.  While Szeth's shardblade is noted to be different than normal shardblades, I think Szeth's lack of Thrill feelings supports that the Thrill is not an effect of having a shardblade. 

 

I do not discount the possibility that the Thrill is a predominantly Alethi trait.  But, I'm not sure if I want to pin it down to genetics yet.  The frequency of its mention, the notoriety of it as an in-world recognized phenomenon, and the fact that Dalinar can lose it in an instant strongly indicates that this is not a "natural" human reaction that would occur outside of the influence of a Shard(s).

[Gloom]

Thank you for the welcome

 

I don't think plate causes a direct physiological enhancement.

 

"You know how it can happen," Kal said. "Ask Laral. She was just talking about it. If a man wins a Shardblade on the battlefield, his eyes become light."

"That's right," Laral said. "Everybody knows it. Even a slave could become a lighteyes if he won a Shardblade."

 

This is my evidence of physiological change brought about by claiming a Shardblade. It hasn't happened yet that I remember, outside of Szeths temporary eye color change, but it seemed like common wisdom amongst the dark-eyes. It was repeated by a bridge runner later in the book, and Kaladin said it would never happen, because the light-eyes would steal the blade before a dark-eye would have a chance at claiming it.

 

Kaladin isn't a Shardbearer, so if he feels the Thrill, and I don't believe he does, then what is the connection between him and Dalimar, Sadeas, and Adolin? The later three aren't surgebinders, and Kaladin isn't a Shardbearer. This leaves the fact that they are all Alethi.

 

While Szeth's shardblade is noted to be different than normal shardblades, I think Szeth's lack of Thrill feelings supports that the Thrill is not an effect of having a shardblade.

 

As I said, Shards were created to be wielded by surgebinders (Radiants). My theory is that the Thrill is a side affect of wielding a Shard without this ability. This would also explain why Szeth, a Shardbearer and surgebinder, doesn't feel the Thrill. If this is incorrect, were left with genetics again because I don't see what other common denominator Kaladin has with others who have been reported to have the Thrill.

 

I'm not saying I'm right, or that you're wrong, I'm just looking for additional evidence either way.

[blackmagic3]

WOB: Kaladin is immune to the thrill, but may have felt it in the past. Looks like in some ways everyone was right.

[Shardlet]

Yup.  I asked the questions.  I just haven't got around to updating the thread.  Kaladin is indeed now immune to the Thrill.  This theory has been debunked in part.  it is still unclear at which point Kaladin became immune.  Brandon left open the possibility that In the flashback, he may have felt the Thrill.  I also think it is possible at the Amaram battle.  Next time I get an opportunity (perhaps at a Steelheart event in Oct.), I will ask a follow-up question to flesh it out a bit more.  But, for completeness, I will also note that the Thrill has been confirmed to be more than an adrenaline rush or fog-of-war kind of thing.  It is indeed supernatural.