Theory: The Dawnshards are actually SHARDS.

[Isomere]

I originally posted a brief idea of this theory scattered throughout this thread, but I wanted to flesh it out and post as a separate topic.  

 

1) We know heralds can physically die multiple times and not actually die. They just recreate a new physical body a few millenia later. 

2) There are striking similarities to the Appearance of a Herald and the Summoning of a Shardblade. I currently think both occur through condensation of Shardic energy spilling from the Spiritual realm into the Physical

3) There are suggestions that between physical lives,  the Heralds are trying to keep something contained, and that they are (physically?, cognitively?) tortured during the process. 

4) Desolations happen at predictable but random intervals. 

5) There is something called the Oathpact that the Heralds abandoned by not going back to the prison they were supposed to maintain.

5) Midnight Essence appears in association with Desolations. 

6) Jezrien is called the StormFather

7) Highstorms come from the Northeast, and sweep Southwest.  

8) The Jes Glyph is in the Northeast corner of the Knights Radiant Table. 

 

Based on these observations I make a very speculative theory:

 

When Odium came, the Almighty didn't splinter, but rather Shattered. I also speculate that shards shatter in predictable ways based on how they define themselves. He created 10 smaller shards (DawnShards?) from that cataclysm and each Shard corresponded to one of the already formed Orders of Knights Radiant. The heads of the Orders picked up the Shards, and all of them Ascended to become Shardholders with 1/10th the Power of the Almighty.

 

They wanted to prevent Odium from ever doing a similar atrocity on other worlds. So they devised a prison that would contain His energy and prevent him from affecting the Cosmere, but at a terrible price. The walls of the prison needed to be made of powerful energy, and Shards inhabit Power and Energy the way we inhabit flesh and blood. To create an effective containment, they formed the walls out of their own bodies.  They created the Oathpact, swearing that they would always remain faithful in preventing the Broken One from Escaping. 

 

Another serious problem developed. In maintaining the barrier of the prison, massive amounts of power are wielded by both sides, and per design these powers cannot get outside the prison. Without an escape valve, force builds up and will eventually create enough local pressure to destroy the prison and free Odium. Before that happens, they must release Odiums power, allow him to affect the world. Midnight Essence escapes, his Power controls the will of the Parshmen, forcing them to fight for Odium and turning them into Voidbringers. The Heralds must fight back his minions and re-seal the cage before Odium can fully escape. This Shardic Venting became known as a Desolation.

 

A third and catastrophic problem developed. The minds of the shardholders became broken by the millennia of torture, and they eventually abandoned their powers, becoming Slivers. Taln alone was left to try and keep the forces of Odium at bay, and he was vastly outmatched. We learn at the end of WoK that he failed, and that Odium was released in a different way this time. And now, the Everstorm comes...

[Voidus]

 

ERI PL ()

Is Jezrien a Sliver?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Jezrien is one of the Heralds, but has never held the power of an entire Shard himself. (So no, not a Sliver.)

 

[Isomere]

Very interesting. I'm assuming the stuff in parenthesis was not from Sanderson himself? Because the Lord Ruler never held the power of an entire Shard, but is still considered a Sliver. 

[Voidus]

TLR held the full power through the WoA. And no, that was a direct quote from Brandon, found here.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Voidus

[Isomere]

Is that confirmed? Leras still existed at that point, and part of His power was still forming a prison for Ruin, so I don't see how all of the power could have been in Rashek's hands.

 

EDIT: expanding this idea to the real questions: Do you have to have the full power of a shard and leave it to become a splinter, and what would you call someone that releases about 1/10-1/5th of a Shard's power?

Edited May 12, 2013 by Isomere

[Voidus]

Ruins prison was formed out of his Cognitive aspect, not Spiritual power.

[makromag]

The theory seems plausible enough, if it were not for one thing in the prologue: The way Kalak speaks of the place,

 

Those firse, those hooks digging into his flesh anew each day. Searing the skin of his arm, then burning the fat, then driving to the bone. He could smell it. Almighty, he could smell it!

 

If it were a battle of minds and weilding the powers of shards, it would be "simply" a battle of cognitive aspects much the same as when Vin and Ati fought, albeit very draining and/or painfull. However Kalaks description seems oddly specififc for such to be true, leading me to believe they inhibit actual bodies, though I do not know the exact process to how those bodies do not simply disintigrate under such treatment.

[Windrunner]

A few facts on Slivers and Splinters

 

ZAS678

Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver?

BRANDON SANDERSON (GOODREADS)

Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

Source

 

So it's pretty apparent that the Lord Ruler, while having Shard-like power, did not hold the whole of Preservation. I don't know what you mean by, "releases," but, I'd say personally that holding a tenth to a fifth of a Shard's power is probably enough to leave the residue of a Sliver on a person.

 

 

PUCK

"Is the definition of Sliver: Someone who has held a large part of the raw form of a Shard temporarily?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"That is it"

Source

This also makes it seem that you don't need to hold the majority of a power, although now it makes me think that a tenth to a fifth might be a bit too low. "Large" is such a relative term when we don't have any concept of how much power a Shard holds. I don't really know how you would even hold a fraction of a Shard's power, aside from at a pool. We don't really know if people who give up large Splinters can become Slivers.

[Binnut]

I'm not good at finding quotes, but isn't it confirmed by Brandon that Honor was still around when the heralds broke the oathpact?

[hoser]

I'm not good at finding quotes, but isn't it confirmed by Brandon that Honor was still around when the heralds broke the oathpact?

As you wish, originally found by Zas:

 

Quote

This is from here.

QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

 

Since there were Radiants around when the Heralds packed it in, Honor was present simultaneously with the Radiants also. 

 

I think that Adonalsium shattered, but shards can voluntarily create parts of their power called splinters without threatening their existence (it does reduce their strength, I think).  There are several references to a Proving Day, which, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever, I theorize that was a contest of some sort to pick the Heralds.  I believe the Heralds were originally human.  Since they don't match the racial types on Roshar, they might be from the Tranquilline Halls. 

People cannot be splinters, but the Heralds could be associated with splinters through their Honorblades, spren or something else. 

Edited May 13, 2013 by hoser

[Isomere]

Binnut, you are right. There is a quote about the Heralds here that is perhaps the strongest argument against my theory. 

 

Q: Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON
The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

 

This quote is unfortunately not very specific. It strongly implies that Tanavast was alive when the Heralds abandoned their Honorblades, but it leaves enough room for Brandon to wiggle if he wants. He has given Aes Sedai answers in the past (ex: saying Seons are not splinters, but not explaining that a splinter is a part of a Seon) so I have learned to read his answers very closely. Some possible ways to look at things:

1) The Heralds may have been around and called Heralds long before the shattering, but with different roles and powers. Perhaps they were initially just the heads of each KR Order, but took on new responsibilities after Ascending and forming the Oathpact. 
2) Could a Shard be shattered without killing the Holder? We know Odium is bound in some way, he may have been unable to bring his full force to bear during the initial shattering and had to kill Tanavast centuries afterward.
3) We don't really understand the nature of the Almighty. My theory has two Shards and two Yolenians forming the Almighty, and a lot of interesting things could happen and still have Him be considered "around".
4) The Heralds could just possess astoundingly powerful Splinters, and develop some of the capacities we associate with Shards. That way, they could have been formed before the splintering, and their abandonment would weaken the Almighty to the point where he could be vulnerable to Odium. 

 

Very hard for me to pick, and I like the 4th option almost as much as I like my original theory. Time will tell I suppose. 

 

 

@ Windrunner: thanks for finding that quote. I still don't really feel comfortable with the whole Ascension/Sliver thing. This quote can be interpreted several ways, so I’ll paraphrase to how I see it.  "The Lord Ruler held a little bit of [Preservation's Power] and then let it go. From then on he [was a Sliver]."  "When he held [a little bit of Preservation's Power] he became the Shard for a short time."

 

So, I interpret this to mean that you don't have to have the full power of a Shard to become a Sliver, but that doesn't really jive with the quote about the Jezrien. "Jezrien is one of the Heralds, but has never held the power of an entire Shard himself. (So no, not a Sliver.)" Perhaps Brandon's definition of Sliver is maturing over time?  Or there is some fundamental difference between the little bit the Heralds held and the little bit TLR held? Seems it could be just a matter of Threshold. Like those carnival hammer games.  If you hit it hard enough, the bell rings, but if you get 99% there you still don’t get any sound at all.

 

Another concern: There seems a clear difference between whatever Sazed picked up to become Harmony, and the WoA power that TLR picked up. One collects slowly over 1024 years, one appears suddenly after the death of the Shardholder. One makes you temporarily a Shard, one makes you permanently a Shard. "If you hold all the power, that makes you a Shard (conspicuous absence of time frame)" vs "When he held it he became the Shard for a short time."

 

So there may be two different types of Investiture: permanent and temporary. Breath, Splinters, Dawnshards?, and Shards are permanent.  Mists, WoA, Lerasium, Stormlight, Dor, are temporary and only provide Investiture while you are actively using them. Then they disperse, and eventually return to the actual holder of the Shard. 

 

EDIT: looks like I made my post too long, Hoser beat me to the quote

Edited May 13, 2013 by Isomere

[sonNeturo]

I thought that the Honourblades were splinters held by the Heralds, who had been changed by Honour or the Oathpact to live longer (still alive 4500 years after giving up their blades) and as part of the oathpact had to go to be tortured until the next desolation, probably to keep Odium at bay. 

 

Also in the prelude Kalak calls Jezrien a king, does this just mean King of the Heralds or does it mean he was a normal King before Odium kicked them out of the Tranqualine Halls?

 

I was sure the Almighty was just Honour, have I been reading the wrong threads?

 

There may be something to the permanent and temporary but what about the end-positive, neutral and negative? and can't anyone become a shard or a sliver (if holding a big enough part of the Shard)

[Windrunner]

We don't really know much about the nature of the Honorblades, aside from that they were more powerful than Shardblades, so your theory is as good as any.

On Jezrien

“You call him the Stormfather, here in Alethkar,” Sigzil said. “Or Jezerezeh’Elin. He was king of the Heralds. Master of the storms, bringer of water and life, known for his fury and his temper, but also for his mercy.”

 

On the Almighty

ATHEISTCANUCK

The Almighty's original name was Tanavast, yes/no?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes and no. The concept of the "Almighty" in Roshar has a lot of meanings, many of them wrong.

ATHEISTCANUCK

But the person who held the Shard Honor was originally named Tanavast?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes. You wiggled it out of me. That was the name of the original holder of the Shard Honor

Source

End-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative are the classifications for various types of investiture. Yes anyone can hold a Shard, but people with access to magic tend to have an easier time of it.