Bigtones Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Hello all, first thread in these forums. I tried the search function to see if this has been discussed and it seems it has not yet been. Page 1233: "It was amazing!" Drehy said, leaning froward. "You're one of the Radiants," Skar said, pointing. "I believe it, even if Teft says you aren't." "He isn't yet," Teft snapped. "Don't you listen" "Can you teach me to do what you did?" Moash cut in. This instantly had me thinking of the vision Dalinar had when he was fighting the voidbringers as a farmer and the Knights Radiant came to him and ask if he wanted to join them. He asked how and they explained that they would teach him everything he needed to know. Also, they are now the honour guard of Dalinar, who I assume will help awaken the Knights Radiant once again to fight against the new evil and the everstorm. Maybe this has already been discussed and if it has apologies, but what are the chances that not only Kaladin being a member of the Radiants, but Bridge Four being a group that becomes the "next" Knights Radiant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelian Posted March 21, 2013 Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well, it's not impossible. Gaining KR powers has more to do with living by the Ideals and acting in accordance with Honor than anything else. However, I'm not sure that teaching someone to act that way would have the same effect as someone like Kaladin acting that way because it's what his heart tells him is right. It could, but I wouldn't be surprised if forming a Nahel bond with an honorspren is much more likely when you come into such things of your own accord. Also, the KRs in the vision said they couldn't guarantee that he'd be a member of one of the orders. Just that they thought it likely. They could have taught him to fight alongside them even if it turned out that he couldn't join them directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigtones Posted March 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Thank you for the reply. I think Bridge Four have already begun to show those ideals and the fact that Syl shows herself, reluctantly of course, to a few members makes me think she may also see greatness inside them with the right leader to lead. It may be a little to cliche thinking about it, but my heart enjoys cliches sometimes. Also: "But we want to help," Skar said. "Even if we can't learn it." so maybe they won't learn how to be a Radiant, but help Kaladin become a Radiant. Edited March 22, 2013 by Bigtones 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 Well, BS stated that Kaladin is on the way to be a Windrunner. If I recall it correctly, Windrunners are Protectors and Leaders. Kaladin needs people to protect and lead, and he got all that in Bridge 4, so it's clear that, at least, they helped in his KR initiation. Probably some of the people in Bridge 4 will become KR also, but I think there's more to this than simple following of a good leader's actions, it demands real devotion to the ideals. A boy could be awed by something his leader does and is incredible, but it takes another step to do it alone, when your leader is not there watching you, guiding. I think we will see some of them go into the path of the KR by committing to the ideals when they are alone and hopeless, when they know they aren't returning to Kaladin or their comrades and tell them "I did the right thing, like Kaladin showed us", but committing because it's just the right thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted March 22, 2013 Report Share Posted March 22, 2013 I'd find it more likely that Bridge Four becomes the equivalent of the soldiers that were waiting for the Radiants in Dalinar's vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jturner Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 In agreement with Alatar, I think it was restated too many times between Syl and Kaladin not to mention....Spren are DRAWN to the element they are named for. So I think it is very possible that by following the codes, the Way of Kings and acting honorably, a trasnformation could occur within the men of bridge 4 (or any) that actually imputes honor to them...and honorspren are then drawn to them. Check Syl's face as they begin asking about it...I think she was 'contemplative' or something like that. Another way; Shallon is ALWAYS saying what she thinks, as does Jasnah. They are compelled to speak the truth, so there is a quality of truthiness that the spren are drawn to. So if you could teach someone to seek and express truth, you have the potential to draw truth spren and then achieve soulcasting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 Eh, I don't think Jasnah is bound to a truthspren. She makes some comments that seem to indicate that she's in a different order than Shallan. Personally, I don't think the attributes of creativity and honesty fit Jasnah particularly well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted March 28, 2013 Report Share Posted March 28, 2013 Are they solely drawn to the element, though? If so, what's up with Syl fighting off the deathspren? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jturner Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 @ windrunner...for Jasnah, not creativity, but honesty? Come on, that's what she is pushing through the whole book. Especially self honesty. I don't know where you live, but I would put a coke on the line on this one...there is a requirement of interaction with Spren in those 2 cases (not Szeth, I know) @PM Syl is drawn to the honor in Kaladin, and changed by him through the Nahal Bond. She is therefore able to fight off the Death spren that are drawn to the 'death' that Kaladin is about to experience. Mmmmm...what would a Parsh bonded with a deathspren in stormform look like? voidbringer Just kidding, that's a total shot in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Anything bonded to a deathspren would be a zombie...considering the bond process and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Ninja Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I'm all for Sigzil becoming a Lightweaver. Being Hoid's (an original Yolen Lightweaver) apprentice has to count for something. Attracting a Nahel spren seems to be a combination of the right attitude, great skill, and luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 @ windrunner...for Jasnah, not creativity, but honesty? Come on, that's what she is pushing through the whole book. Especially self honesty. I don't know where you live, but I would put a coke on the line on this one...there is a requirement of interaction with Spren in those 2 cases (not Szeth, I know) Not sure at all what you mean by the second part, but I simply don't see honesty being a huge part of Jasnah's character. I think plenty of other attributes are more descriptive of Jasnah than honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jturner Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 (edited) Anything bonded to a deathspren would be a zombie...considering the bond process and all Yeah...lika a parshman? Windrunner, let me restate. I responded to your 'creativity and honesty', but I was originally talking about "Truth"...not honesty or creativity. We aren't talking about honesty spren, I think. We ARE talking about truth spren. Maybe I am wrong, but didn't Shallon bond with a truth spren; or at least interact with it to get to shadesmar? Even though she is really dishonest, she knows how to see and express the truth when it fits her, and do it well (whether in word or drawing). Same with Jasnah, who has many secrets and can be dishonest but spends her life searching for truth. Ex: Truthspren, "what are you?" Shallan "a murderer", Truthspren "that's a powerful truth", Bam, shadesmar. Well, we can disagree, but I am pretty sure Brandon is trying to make the point that spren are drawn to the aspect they are named for, not produced by it. Edited March 29, 2013 by jturner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 (edited) Keep in mind the fact that Shallan started with dishonest intentions, but was consistently pushedby her own desires toward honest pursuit of exactly what she was pretending. Almost like something was making her honest despite her best intention otherwise... In other words, spren seem to be drawn to things, then proceed to.augment those things by their presence. Hence Syl fighting off deathspren to keep Kaladin alive. Edited March 29, 2013 by Leuthie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 Windrunner, let me restate. I responded to your 'creativity and honesty', but I was originally talking about "Truth"...not honesty or creativity. We aren't talking about honesty spren, I think. We ARE talking about truth spren. Maybe I am wrong, but didn't Shallon bond with a truth spren; or at least interact with it to get to shadesmar? Even though she is really dishonest, she knows how to see and express the truth when it fits her, and do it well (whether in word or drawing). Same with Jasnah, who has many secrets and can be dishonest but spends her life searching for truth. Ex: Truthspren, "what are you?" Shallan "a murderer", Truthspren "that's a powerful truth", Bam, shadesmar. I'm kind of confused on your point here. Telling the truth is honesty... I'm not denying Jasnah figures truths out. I'm saying I think that other traits are more central to her character than telling the truth. My personal belief is it is your traits and actions that attract a spren to you. I simply think that other attributes are more dominant in Jasnah than honesty. I think this and Jasnah's initial confusion on the symbolheads is fairly decent evidence that Jasnah is bound to a different sort of spren. Well, we can disagree, but I am pretty sure Brandon is trying to make the point that spren are drawn to the aspect they are named for, not produced by it. Kind of confused by this... I never said that I thought that was false. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jturner Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I'm kind of confused on your point here. Telling the truth is honesty... I'm not denying Jasnah figures truths out. I'm saying I think that other traits are more central to her character than telling the truth. My personal belief is it is your traits and actions that attract a spren to you. I simply think that other attributes are more dominant in Jasnah than honesty. I think this and Jasnah's initial confusion on the symbolheads is fairly decent evidence that Jasnah is bound to a different sort of spren. Kind of confused by this... I never said that I thought that was false. First...sorry for the confusion. I thought you were responding to the fact that Spren were not attracted to an attribute, in addition to saying that jasnah is not bonded to a truthspren. I didn't see Jasnah as being confused by the truthspren, just shocked that Shallon could see them. Telling the truth is not honesty, as you stated. You can be honest, and still express untruth mistakenly. You can have the truth, and choose not to be honest. Honesty is a characteristic of nobility (coming from the same root as honor), or a need to 'tell it like it is'. So in the phrase 'tell it like it is' Honesty would be the 'tell it' and truth would be the 'is'. Honesty will, at least once, produce truth, but truth does not necessarily ever need to produce honesty. I am not going to go to the mats on what kind of spren she is bonded to, if any. However, Jasnah's whole life is dedicated to finding out the truth; she is a veristatalian. I believe from the latin Veritas meaning: truth. She may not be honest all the time, but she is VERY interested in, and in posession of much, Truth. So here come the truthspren ) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 You're confusing truth (as someone knows it) with Truth (universal). Honesty (and truthspren) are associated with the former as well as the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jturner Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 You're confusing truth (as someone knows it) with Truth (universal). Honesty (and truthspren) are associated with the former as well as the latter. I don't believe I am confused. I agree, honesty is associated with t/Truth and I agree that truthspren are associated with t/Truth; I do not agree that truth is necessarily associated with Honesty. We are dealing with sufficencies and necessities. If you have honesty, then you will at least occasionally have truth (honesty->truth) it does not follow that if you have truth, then you must ever have honesty. It's flawed reasoning, a mistaken reversal. Shallan used or bonded with a truthspren (at least attracted it) even though she was DIShonest. Remember, the things are asking her "what are you" in the midst of her being completely DIShonest. So honesty clearly isn't a player in attracting truthspren (but may be for honorspren...Syl was very particular about Kaladin lying). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 The truth spoken by a dishonest person is more likely to attract truthspren than that spoken by an honest one? Is that what you're trying to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Monstrosity Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I think it's more complicated than just being 'truth' spren. At least, that's the impression I got when seeing the Brandon quote that gave them the name. Can anyone dig that up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meg Posted March 29, 2013 Report Share Posted March 29, 2013 I think it's more complicated than just being 'truth' spren. At least, that's the impression I got when seeing the Brandon quote that gave them the name. Can anyone dig that up? I tried to, because I'm sure I've read something like "ah, truthspren, yes, you can call them so until the right name is given". I failed . Maybe I'm mixing up something again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigtones Posted March 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Leave for 3 days and come back and my topic is still around...wowzer! I love the entire "spren" idea and want to see how it expands in his upcoming books. I also feel that spren are drawn/created by the action taking place. Wind creates windspren, rot create rotspren, honour creates honourspren and so on. So back to my main topic, if Kaladin and the fellow of bridge four are able to exhibit their own sense of honour and be able to hold on to the Ideals set fourth by the Knights Radiant, I can see many of them (Hopefully Moash and Skar) becoming KR. This series even though its one book young at the moment excites me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Are they solely drawn to the element, though? If so, what's up with Syl fighting off the deathspren? Actually, this seems like a very important thing that I think we've glossed over a little. Syl is fighting the deathspren. Why? If they are just drawn to the dead and dying, then what good does fighting them do? It shouldn't have any effect on saving Kaladin. Syl is a spren, and knows more about their nature than anyone. Maybe it's not simple a case of spren being attracted to something, but the observation of spren cementing something into existence. Fits with the measurement test those two ardents were doing as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 Spren might be integral to the processes that they're attracted to. They are drawn to a process but are also.required to complete it. A fire wouldn't burn as well if you keep flame spren away. Wind doesn't blow as hard if there are no flame spren. People dont die if you fight off the deathspren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 So back to my main topic, if Kaladin and the fellow of bridge four are able to exhibit their own sense of honour and be able to hold on to the Ideals set fourth by the Knights Radiant, I can see many of them (Hopefully Moash and Skar) becoming KR. I think that bridge four have already made some very important choices that could endear them to honorable spren. When Kaladin asked them to go on a suicide mission to try to save Dalinar's army, they could have objected or refused. When he went down to a flood of arrows, they could have bailed, but they went ahead without him. The Teft who once refused to share any of his food with the wounded, told Kaladin to stay and then went to push the bridge across to near certain death. I think these are very important choices that could easily start attracting spren. The fact that the team didn't even need to debate them makes them stronger choices. While it may be that more important and individual choices will need to be made later on to build the Nahel bond, I believe some members of Bridge Four will have a radiant destiny. They have started down the path. Arguably, Moash, by vocally objecting to what Kaladin was trying to do, was protecting and leading from the beginning. Teft and Rock have also made altruistic choices that could make them stand out to spren. If I were an honorspren wandering the world vaguely, nostalgically looking to recreate the Nahel bond, I might linger around the Shattered Plains looking for honorable actions. The actions of Bridge Four in the Tower fight would have certainly caught my eye. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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