Shard Shipping & Selish Religion

[NewbSombrero]

I realize this is pretty pointless and probably totally doesn't matter to anything, but I was thinking today about things, and I got an interesting idea. What if Aona and Skai were something resembling romantically involved, if such a thing is possible for Shards. I think if it would work for any Shards we know of so far, it would make sense with the Intents of Dominion and Devotion, even if it wouldn't form anything resembling a healthy relationship in typical terms, but where she is all about Devotion and he is all about Dominion, it would actually be able to advance both of their Intents.

 

Wow, that was weird and convoluted, but I'm not so great and disentangling my own prose into more elegant verbiage, so take from that what you will.

 

Although, it does sort of tie in somewhat to a thought about Shu-Keseg and its offshoots. What if in its original form, Shu-Keseg was based on worship of both Devotion and Dominion and a pair? Then, Shu-Dereth and Shu-Korath each broke off to worship Dominion and Devotion respectively? To me at least, this line seems to explain pretty well the difference of doctrinal focus of the two churches.

 

Anyway, that's just my thoughts regarding things on Sel. What do you guys think?

 

EDIT: Spelling.

Edited March 18, 2013 by NewbSombrero

[Krelian]

I don't discount that Shards with individuals to hold them could have some sort of relationship, albeit not exactly one we'd see as a romance from a human point of view, I think. 

 

However, if you want to refer to Sel's Shards, that's a pretty tragic love story...

 

Of course, if the sudden absence of any sort of communion with the Shards (which is a communion we have no evidence of, mind you) is responsible for the splintering of Selish faiths, yeah, that would make sense.

 

Edit:

 

Do we have any idea at all when the Selish Shards were shattered? Does WoK necessarily take place after Elantris? For that matter, do we know if the shattering of the Shards occurred before Elantris? My Word of Brandon knowledge is very much lacking...

Edited March 18, 2013 by Krelian

[Chaos]

I'd buy it. I mean, Aona and Skai could have been romantically involved before they took up their Shards, after all. Then their respective Shards' intents split them up. 

 

I like that Shu-Keseg idea, but we really don't know how long ago Devotion and Dominion were Splintered, so it's really hard to tell. We have no idea if that was before or after, say, the prelude in Way of Kings. The actual events of Way of Kings definitely happens after Elantris, but the Prelude's location is far more unclear.

[Voidus]

Devotion and Dominion were definitely shattered before the events of Elantris, and Elantris is probably somewhere between one and two thousand years pre-WoK, given the little Brandon has told us about where Elantris falls on the timeline (Not quite thousands of years before mistborn but it sounded like it was close, so probably 1000-2000, but this is purely speculative.)

[Krelian]

The actual events of Way of Kings definitely happens after Elantris, but the Prelude's location is far more unclear.

 

What I'd really like to know is, when Hoid's letter is written in relation to everything else.

Devotion and Dominion were definitely shattered before the events of Elantris, and Elantris is probably somewhere between one and two thousand years pre-WoK, given the little Brandon has told us about where Elantris falls on the timeline (Not quite thousands of years before mistborn but it sounded like it was close, so probably 1000-2000, but this is purely speculative.)

 

Ah, thanks. In that case, I would say yeah, TC's theory is totally plausible, and the splintering of religions makes sense (since it was pre-Elantris), but if that's the case, as I said, sad ending there....

 

Edit: Sorry about the double-post, have yet to even try the MultiQuote feature. My bad.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Krelian
Please do not double post, the multiquote feature works awesome

[Chaos]

What I'd really like to know is, when Hoid's letter is written in relation to everything else.

Now that is certainly the million dollar question :/

[Alatar]

I realize this is pretty pointless and probably totally doesn't matter to anything, but I was thinking today about things, and I got an interesting idea. What if Aona and Skai were something resembling romantically involved, if such a thing is possible for Shards. I think if it would work for any Shards we know of so far, it would make sense with the Intents of Dominion and Devotion, even if it wouldn't form anything resembling a healthy relationship in typical terms, but where she is all about Devotion and he is all about Dominion, it would actually be able to advance both of their Intents.

 

Wow, that was weird and convoluted, but I'm not so great and disentangling my own prose into more elegant verbiage, so take from that what you will.

 

Although, it does sort of tie in somewhat to a thought about Shu-Keseg and its offshoots. What if in its original form, Shu-Keseg was based on worship of both Devotion and Dominion and a pair? Then, Shu-Derreth and Shu-Korath each broke off to worship Dominion and Devotion respectively? To me at least, this line seems to explain pretty well the difference of doctrinal focus of the two churches.

 

Anyway, that's just my thoughts regarding things on Sel. What do you guys think?

 

I even started thinking some time ago that uniting Devotion and Dominion could lead to something like Love Shard, due to the component of Devotion and Dominion that Love has (we have selfless love but also selfish love), so I completely agree that it could be possible.

 

Also, I think Love is a big theme in Elantris. I just reread it looking for cosmere references and noticed it, there is love for the family, love in couples, Hrathen is in love with Sarene, Dilaf fell in love with a woman, that love turning to hatred to Elantris because they couldn't save her...

 

Apart from that, I've always thought, as you, that Korath and Dereth parted because they focused in every Shard. I even suspect that Hoid may have been Deseg...

 

So, total agreement.

[NewbSombrero]

Apart from that, I've always thought, as you, that Korath and Dereth parted because they focused in every Shard. I even suspect that Hoid may have been Deseg...

 

So, total agreement.

 

I had not even thought about the possibility of Hoid being Keseg, but that is a very interesting thought. The plot thickens.

[Yados]

Has that whole Shu-Korath = Devotion and Shu-Dereth = Dominion assumption ever been confirmed?

 

Because...

 

1) Both religions use Seons with Aons at their core. 

 

2) Shu-Dereth mandates a chain of one-to-one devotions between individuals  No one serves Jaddeth except Wyrn. No one serves Wyrn directly except the individuals who are have pledged devotion to him, who then in turn link to others to themselves.

 

On on the other hand, Shu-Korath is led by one man, the Patriarch Seinalan, in a much more conventional religious set up. Is it that more akin to a religious dominion. 

 

I guess the idea that Aona and Skai have been splintered makes things inherently more complicated than one religion for Devotion and one for Dominion.

 

Still, it seems that assumption gets made a lot in Elantris threads. Is that because it's easy to link the bad guy religion to the bad guy shard or is it something Brandon confirmed?

[NewbSombrero]

Has that whole Shu-Korath = Devotion and Shu-Dereth = Dominion assumption ever been confirmed?

 

Because...

 

1) Both religions use Seons with Aons at their core. 

 

2) Shu-Dereth mandates a chain of one-to-one devotions between individuals  No one serves Jaddeth except Wyrn. No one serves Wyrn directly except the individuals who are have pledged devotion to him, who then in turn link to others to themselves.

 

On on the other hand, Shu-Korath is led by one man, the Patriarch Seinalan, in a much more conventional religious set up. Is it that more akin to a religious dominion. 

 

I guess the idea that Aona and Skai have been splintered makes things inherently more complicated than one religion for Devotion and one for Dominion.

 

Still, it seems that assumption gets made a lot in Elantris threads. Is that because it's easy to link the bad guy religion to the bad guy shard or is it something Brandon confirmed?

 

I'm not really looking at either Shu-Dereth or Dominion as being in the bad guy camp. My logic on that dichotomy is based on the comment in the book about Shu-Korath being based on unity through love (Devotion) and Shu-Dereth being based on unity through order (Dominion).

 

As for Derethi use of Seons, that is very clearly contrary to letter of the law as they are directly tied to some very non Derethi stuff. 

 

As for your interpretations of the two religions and their connections, I think you run into some issues when you look at how they are described in the text. The Shu-Dereth chain of command is definitely more driven by you obeying the orders of the person above you and them having control over you than it is about you being devoted to them. Shu-Korath is more driven by personal devotion to Domi. 

 

I hope that makes sense, Yados.

[Krelian]

Didn't the Derethi have skaze, not seons?

[NewbSombrero]

Didn't the Derethi have skaze, not seons?

 

They've got both. The Skaze certainly seem to be more in charge based on what Brandon has said though. But if you remember, Hrathen did use a Seon to communicate with the Wyrn.

[Krelian]

They've got both. The Skaze certainly seem to be more in charge based on what Brandon has said though. But if you remember, Hrathen did use a Seon to communicate with the Wyrn.

 

I had not. Only on my second re-read of Elantris right now, been awhile since I went through the whole thing, thanks.

 

Seons are passed on from their current partner though, so I don't see why the Derethi couldn't have coerced some into their service. Not necessarily a sign that they're a part of Derethi culture/religion intrinsically, IMO.

[NewbSombrero]

I had not. Only on my second re-read of Elantris right now, been awhile since I went through the whole thing, thanks.

 

Seons are passed on from their current partner though, so I don't see why the Derethi couldn't have coerced some into their service. Not necessarily a sign that they're a part of Derethi culture/religion intrinsically, IMO.

 

I would see where you're coming from were it not pretty explicit that Hrathen needs to keep it on the down low because anything remotely tied to Elantris is taboo, and only the higher ups are aware of the use of Seons for communication among the Derethi higher ups.

[Krelian]

I would see where you're coming from were it not pretty explicit that Hrathen needs to keep it on the down low because anything remotely tied to Elantris is taboo, and only the higher ups are aware of the use of Seons for communication among the Derethi higher ups.

 

That would be an argument against them being normally usable by Derethi, I'd think. I think the higher ups in Fjordell had a few very high ranking priests "imprinted" with seons that were likely tortured away from their previous partners, just so the Dakhor priests had the same advantage of instant communication that their enemies did.

 

Of course, keeping the knowledge that Derethi can use seons/AonDor from the populace would explain it as well, but I just don't think that's the case here.

[NewbSombrero]

That would be an argument against them being normally usable by Derethi, I'd think. I think the higher ups in Fjordell had a few very high ranking priests "imprinted" with seons that were likely tortured away from their previous partners, just so the Dakhor priests had the same advantage of instant communication that their enemies did.

 

Of course, keeping the knowledge that Derethi can use seons/AonDor from the populace would explain it as well, but I just don't think that's the case here.

 

I'm not quite sure I follow what you're saying here.

[Krelian]

I thought you were saying that Hrethen needing to keep the use of seons quiet was an indication that the Derethi can, in fact, all use AonDor and partner with seons. If that wasn't what you were trying to imply, please disregard

[NewbSombrero]

I thought you were saying that Hrethen needing to keep the use of seons quiet was an indication that the Derethi can, in fact, all use AonDor and partner with seons. If that wasn't what you were trying to imply, please disregard

 

Yeah. AonDor was not at all relevant to what I was talking about.

[Krelian]

I think I'm just assuming that being paired with a seon implies the capability of using AonDor (even if you can't yet since you weren't transformed by the Shaod).

 

I don't know whether we have a definitive word either way.

[Windrunner]

I strongly doubt that having a Seon means that you have the potential to be taken by the Shaod. I see it as more of a bond; you don't have to be on the path to being a Radiant to have a Shardblade so why would you need the potential to be taken by the Shaod to have a Seon?

[Krelian]

Eh, I feel like we know so little of the specifics of Sel's magic, I've just been making a lot of assumptions I guess. I figured if seons are splinters of Devotion, and AonDor is the energy left from Devotion's shattering, there's a definite link between the two. 

 

And, yes, I suppose assuming AonDor is the energy from Devotion isn't confirmed either, but I feel like that one, at least, is fairly safe to assume.

[Windrunner]

Oh, certainly AonDor being of Devotion is basically confirmed. After all, Aona held Devotion, and AonDor literally has the first bit of her name in it. It's not ironclad, but I'll personally be shocked if it works out some other way.

 

I think that there certainly is a link between Seons and AonDor in that they probably both are of Devotion. I also see it as a possibility that AonDor was used to create the Seons, although there has been no hint that the Elantrians themselves knew anything about the origin of Seons. Going slightly off topic, my personal nutty theory about that is that somewhere there is another Aon like Elantris that was set up to create Seons without any oversight, and now that the chasm has been formed, it's ceased to produce any because no one's knows where it is or how to repair it.

[NewbSombrero]

Oh, certainly AonDor being of Devotion is basically confirmed. After all, Aona held Devotion, and AonDor literally has the first bit of her name in it. It's not ironclad, but I'll personally be shocked if it works out some other way.

 

I think that there certainly is a link between Seons and AonDor in that they probably both are of Devotion. I also see it as a possibility that AonDor was used to create the Seons, although there has been no hint that the Elantrians themselves knew anything about the origin of Seons. Going slightly off topic, my personal nutty theory about that is that somewhere there is another Aon like Elantris that was set up to create Seons without any oversight, and now that the chasm has been formed, it's ceased to produce any because no one's knows where it is or how to repair it.

 

I'm really bad at finding quotes, so bear with me. Brandon has said that there were no Seons before Odium visited Sel. This suggests a few things:

1) Seons are the product of Odium splintering Devotion. (He has also stated that the Aons at their centers are specifically Splinters of Devotion, thus my exclusion of Dominion here.)

2) Since Seons have been around for so long that they are even thought of by near immortals as things that have just always been around essentially, it's been quite some time since Odium's visit.

3) Based on that, (as well as some more WoB if I remember correctly) the Reod had nothing to do with Odium or the creation of Seons or the end thereof.

 

If anyone is better at finding quotes than I am, your help would be greatly appreciated.

[Windrunner]

No need to find quotes, I recognize all that info. Eh, I think you're right about where the initial Splinters to fuel Seons came from. But Seons can expend the Aons in their core and die. I think they've been around so long that they would have gone extinct if that was the case. And the other "natural" Splinters we've seen, spren and the Divine Breath, are not themselves sentient. I think it probably requires an interaction with a human or some other intelligence to bind the power to the Aon at a Seon's core, which I personally believe forms the foundation for their mind and personality.

 

The argument could be made that the reason there are so few Seons is that none have been made since the beginning, but I find the abrupt drop-off in population intriguing, even if I factor in the fact that Seons are now unfashionable. I think they were being made, but something's stopped it now. This is about as baseless as speculation comes though, so I guess we'll have to see. I fully expect to have this blown out of the water come Elantris 2.

[NewbSombrero]

No need to find quotes, I recognize all that info. Eh, I think you're right about where the initial Splinters to fuel Seons came from. But Seons can expend the Aons in their core and die. I think they've been around so long that they would have gone extinct if that was the case. And the other "natural" Splinters we've seen, spren and the Divine Breath, are not themselves sentient. I think it probably requires an interaction with a human or some other intelligence to bind the power to the Aon at a Seon's core, which I personally believe forms the foundation for their mind and personality.

 

The argument could be made that the reason there are so few Seons is that none have been made since the beginning, but I find the abrupt drop-off in population intriguing, even if I factor in the fact that Seons are now unfashionable. I think they were being made, but something's stopped it now. This is about as baseless as speculation comes though, so I guess we'll have to see. I fully expect to have this blown out of the water come Elantris 2.

 

Do we really know that spren are Splinters though? I keep seeing people drop this as if it's certain, but I haven't seen any WoB to indicate this. If we do have confirmation, I would love to know this, but if we don't, we should probably be a bit more careful about our assumptions that we put into our theories, because, if proven wrong, some of these assumptions could lead to a lot of theorizing being thrown out the window very quickly. Just a thing I worry about.