Monsterwraiths

[Comatose]

Hey guys, I'm not sure if this is being discussed yet, or if it necessarily needs a full topic, but as someone who loves the concept of monsterwraiths, as introduced in the Crafty Games Mistborn RPG, I thought these tidbits from Inkthinker's deviant art page might bear some discussion:

And it was here that we developed the monsterwraith, the result of a normally placid mistwraith absorbing the corpse of a koloss, and thereby gaining power and aggression without awareness. Such are the stuff of skaa nightmares.

Monsterwraiths are something the guys at Crafty and I came up with and proposed to Brandon, with favorable results. It works logically within the framework of the fiction, and the game needed a few more threats in the world.

Since then I've also seen the clever kids over at 17th Shard write up ideas for a dozen other ways you can use Hemalurgy to create monsters, and with 1000 years of history in the Final Empire there's room for a couple hundred years here or there that explain why we don't see these things in the book. It makes the game just a little more fun for players who want to feel like they can write a part of the history.

-Inkthinker

Anyways, what do you guys think about this? First off, how would a mistwraith manage to digest a kandra? Would the kandra have to go willingly? And what would happen to the spikes? Originally, I just thought monsterwraiths were a specific breed of mistwraith, found only in outlying regions, and had no idea they could be created which adds a new dimension to how terrifying and awesome they are. I think there are some interesting implications here, but what does everyone else think.

Also, props to Inkthinker for the beautiful artwork, and all the work he's done with Crafty Games.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

You mean digest a koloss, right?

The spikes still should retain charge inside a koloss corpse for a while.

[Comatose]

Haha, I read that part like three times and still didn't read the correct thing. I was totally seeing a mistwraith digesting a kandra.

Koloss makes much more sense. Still, I think it is interesting that the digestion of a koloss passes on some of the prey's behavioral characteristics to the mistwraith (not just physical ones). Makes me wonder what would happen if a kandra digested a koloss...

Also, regarding the spikes, when TenSoon kills OreSeur (however that happened), he is able to take OreSeur's spikes, as they still retain a charge. If the mistwraith digested a koloss, would the spikes not keep their charge as they pass to the monsterwraith (since they are still embedded in flesh)? I guess it is also likely that the wraith wouldn't know what to do with them, and would just excrete them and then the charge would fade.

Interesting to think about though. Thanks for the clarification! *Facepalm

[Krelian]

Kandra and koloss both show that spikes retain their power for a very long time. Kandra Blessings imply the spikes are good for at least 1,000 years, actually.

As for this idea - Kandra require Blessings, as far as we know. If they can use Koloss spikes, I'd guess it would be for Potency only...

[Millennium]

The RPG states that multiple Blessings of the same type don't stack, but it doesn't mention any harmful effect of simply having them. My question is, why don't the four iron spikes in a Koloss simply act as a pair of Blessings of Potency? Or do they act as a pair of Blessings of Potency? Is this perhaps the same thing that would happen to a Kandra with a BoP that gained a second BoP?

It would make a degree of thematic sense. Hemalurgic iron isn't good for the psyche in humans, and while kandra aren't human, they do descend from humanity. Perhaps, even though it takes more iron to start having a detrimental effect, the end stages are still similar. I do not think the kandra would experiment with something like this (Blessings are too precious to "waste" in that way), so they might not even know.

[Comatose]

Kandra and koloss both show that spikes retain their power for a very long time. Kandra Blessings imply the spikes are good for at least 1,000 years, actually.

I and Phantom Monstrosity (if I understood him) were referring to spikes losing charge inside a non-living object, like a corpse. As far as I know, spikes in a living human or creature can last indefinitely, but Marsh mentions how spikes not placed directly from one body into another quickly lose potency. Now, since the hemalurgic piercings in Alloy of Law are apparently recycled ones, perhaps the spike never loses its charge entirely, but I'm mostly interested in the effects a functioning koloss spike would have on a monster wraith.

The digestion of a koloss increasing aggression also makes me wonder about TenSoon killing OreSeur. I don't have my book with me at the moment, but I believe TenSoon, when threatening a guard or something, says he digested OreSeur and stole his blessing. If this is the case,and TenSoon wasn't bluffing, does this mean that TenSoon took some aspect of OreSeur into himself as he digested him? It's an interesting thought. Up until this point, it has seemed like kandra and mistwraiths merely appropriate nutrients and physical structures from their prey, but if there is some level of attribute acquisition as well (obviously small, since it doesn't seem noticeable except in the case of the monster wraith), that makes things a little more interesting.

[Senor Feesh]

I don't have my book with me at the moment, but I believe TenSoon, when threatening a guard or something, says he digested OreSeur and stole his blessing. If this is the case,and TenSoon wasn't bluffing, does this mean that TenSoon took some aspect of OreSeur into himself as he digested him?

Kandra Blessings come as paired spikes (different types grant different Blessings, but all grant sentience). When TenSoon says he stole OreSeur's Blessing, he means literally, in that he took OreSeur's spikes after digesting him (I believe he recovers them later, after his escape from the Homeland from a place he'd stashed them in a sack).

--Edit to fix spelling error--

Edited February 28, 2013 by Senor Feesh

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Also, regarding the spikes, when TenSoon kills OreSeur (however that happened), he is able to take OreSeur's spikes, as they still retain a charge. If the mistwraith digested a koloss, would the spikes not keep their charge as they pass to the monsterwraith (since they are still embedded in flesh)? I guess it is also likely that the wraith wouldn't know what to do with them, and would just excrete them and then the charge would fade.

That kind of gets into the questions about how you spike a mistwraith in the first place; their amorphous anatomy is weird as heck.

I think it's likely that they have some sort of instinctual 'move spike into position' going on. If it eats four koloss spikes, they get plugged in and start activating; since the effect of the spike is 'makes a human bigger, stronger, and totally ragey', the mistwraith starts roiding out.

Incidentally, that means a mistwraith who ate a dead steel inquisitor would be freaky.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Satsuoni]

Ahm, well. The spikes have a strange property that is largely unexplored. While the fresh spike does indeed leak, and most of its charge decays within two days or so, for a smallish spike, the spikes once placed into the body seem to decay much slower.

Examples include: Vin's earring, which she was not wearing for months at a time, kept its power just fine. Likewise, blessings of Potency TenSoon left in the hole for a few days worked OK. It is unknown if killing the current owner will restart the decay, or whether such spikes are of any good to anybody else.

Next, Sazed mentions in a book that two Koloss spikes are equivalent to blessing of potency of Kandra. The same thing that drives human nuts is what gives Kandra sentience. Whether they would actually stack in world or not is unknown, since RPG is nerfed for balance purposes. Still, one can presume that there is a specific place within that body of theirs that needs to be pierced, and incorrect positioning might drive mistwraith nuts.

I once proposed a Kandrzilla, a mistwraith that happened upon Koloss camp and spent some time eating corpses, acquiring maybe a hundred spikes and growing all the time, until it actually started to attack living Koloss. It would then grow sentient enough and excrete most bones, forming skeleton entirely out of spikes, resulting in a horrible monstrosity capable of devouring a village in a single... minute.

[Voidus]

I once proposed a Kandrzilla, a mistwraith that happened upon Koloss camp and spent some time eating corpses, acquiring maybe a hundred spikes and growing all the time, until it actually started to attack living Koloss. It would then grow sentient enough and excrete most bones, forming skeleton entirely out of spikes, resulting in a horrible monstrosity capable of devouring a village in a single... minute.

I want to see this, especially if it eventually learns how to use Hemalurgy on its own and then can also just spike people itself.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I also asked Brandon at a signing if putting Breath into a mistwraith would make something awesome. His response was

"Breath into a mistwraith? Yeah, that could work."

So, imagine a kandrazilla that ate nightblood and used him as a spike.

[Kurkistan]

My understanding is that the interesting thing about spiking Kandra is that they have to know what they're doing. Kandra have to actually manipulate their own organs such that the spikes pierce the right ones to grant powers. So a pair of iron spikes can either be a Blessing or transformative aggressive-monster-juice. Given that Kandra adapt not only the bones, but the organs of what they eat, their new sets of iron spikes would be impaling the same regions as they did in the Koloss, resulting in the same effects.

I can't find the link to actually prove this (bad Kurkistan!), sorry.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

@Phantom: I am pretty sure Nightblood itself would give even Kandrzilla indigestion. However, you can use awakened spikes, or better yet, awake the spikes already in use, each with slightly different command, like "Rip human souls" "Destroy cities", etc... That might be.. spectacular, especially when the count of spikes goes into hundred, but is unlikely to support random creations Still, I can just see it: "Advancing on Luthadel was a roiling mass of black smoke, some floating above, some cascading below like a waterfall, yet somehow never running out. Inside, one could barely distinguish a slithering mass with hundreds of barely formed protrusions,and a framework of twisting metal in the translucent flesh..."

Ahem.

@Kurkistan:

here are some quotes, from the book (no links ):

The Lord Ruler turned the Feruchemists into mistwraiths, and they began to breed true as a species. You add a Blessing to a mistwraith, and they become awakened, turning into a kandra. One such as I, created centuries after the Ascension, was born as a mistwraith but became awakened when I received my Blessing.

We only have two spikes in us, while the others have more. An Allomancer can still take control of us, but free we remain more independent of mind than koloss or Inquisitors, who are both affected by Ruin’s impulses even when he isn’t directly controlling them.

This is what happens when the spikes are all removed:

Mistwraiths. The cousins of the kandra, the scavengers that hunted at night and fed on corpses. They moved about Sazed, masses of muscle, flesh, and bone—but with those bones combined in strange, unnatural ways. Feet hanging off at angles, heads connected to arms. Ribs used like legs.

Here is TenSoon adding new spikes. Mind you, that is a modified animal body, so positioning is certainly not the same. Of course, position may still affect the effect of the spike, but it appears to be the same regardless of the kandra current form.

TenSoon stuck a paw into the depression, digging out the ash, working to uncover the things he had hidden a year before. He found them quickly, rolling one—then the other—out onto the rock shelf in front of him. Two small, polished iron spikes. It took two spikes to form a single Blessing. TenSoon didn’t know why this was. It was simply the way of things.

TenSoon lay down, commanding the skin of his shoulder to part, and absorbed the spikes into his body. He moved them through muscles and ligaments—dissolving several organs, then re-forming them with the spikes piercing them.

P.S. A year in the ground, and no appreciable decay!

[Kurkistan]

^Thanks for the quotes, but my main point is what is referenced in the last one: TenSoon made sure that the spikes pierced specific organs.

[Comatose]

Perhaps the decay only happens between the sacrifice of the victim and the placing of the spike in the 'product' (the situation Marsh describes). That would mean that once the spike has been "activated" inside someone, it would no longer decay. Interesting.

@Senor Freesh: I know what blessings are and understand how stealing them works. What I'm trying to figure out is what happened during TenSoon's digestion of OreSeur before the blessings were taken.

I hadn't thought of the possibility that a Koloss's spikes might be what was causing the creation of a monster wraith, and that they might be what is responsible for the transference of the koloss temperament, rather than the act of digestion. That is interesting, and makes more sense to me.

So, that would mean that, in the act of digestion, TenSoon did not incorporate any aspect of OreSeur into himself, but may have in the utlization of his spikes. I'm not sure if I buy this, however, since Kandra spikes work slightly different from koloss spikes. Koloss are a combination of the four humans who have been spiked, whereas kandra are created when hemalurgy is used to bridge the disconnect in mistwraiths between their physical and cognitive aspects (or something like that).

That makes sense... I think...

[Phantom Monstrosity]

@Phantom: I am pretty sure Nightblood itself would give even Kandrzilla indigestion. However, you can use awakened spikes, or better yet, awake the spikes already in use, each with slightly different command, like "Rip human souls" "Destroy cities", etc... That might be.. spectacular, especially when the count of spikes goes into hundred, but is unlikely to support random creations :(/> Still, I can just see it: "Advancing on Luthadel was a roiling mass of black smoke, some floating above, some cascading below like a waterfall, yet somehow never running out. Inside, one could barely distinguish a slithering mass with hundreds of barely formed protrusions,and a framework of twisting metal in the translucent flesh..."

Ahem.

Ah, but think of the lovely conversations you'd be having. Nightblood and Ruin on a conference call.

"Kill everyone."

"Oh boy oh boy! Let's go and do that! Kill everyone!"

"Stop copying me."

"No, you stop copying me."

"Nah uh"

"Yah uh"

"Nah uh"

"Yah uh"

...

[Millennium]

P.S. A year in the ground, and no appreciable decay!

At least according to the RPG, spikes never decay completely: over time they can become so weak as to be almost useless, but never to the point of becoming ordinary pieces of metal again.

It's possible that even a pair of very stale spikes is still strong enough to serve as a Blessing. We never hear of one Kandra having stronger Blessings than another, and in the RPG it's not even possible. It could be that the Lord Ruler only ever sends weak or stale spikes to the kandra, while saving the "best" spikes to make koloss and Inquisitors. From a kandra perspective these spikes would never decay, but it's actually that they just can't decay any further.

[Millennium]

^Thanks for the quotes, but my main point is what is referenced in the last one: TenSoon made sure that the spikes pierced specific organs.

We only ever hear of spikes being "placed into" mistwraiths, rather than of them being spiked the way people are. Given mistwraith physiology, it also doesn't really make a lot of sense: mistwraiths don't have a definite shape to map bind-points to. Besides, the kandra's religious devotion to Preservation makes it seem unlikely that they'd want to practice Hemalurgy the way the Lord Ruler does, even if it's necessary for their survival.

But this scene with TenSoon may show another way for things to work. Perhaps mistwraiths instinctively self-spike: when you put two spikes into a mistwraith, it reacts by forming organs around them, and those pierced organs create the bind-points necessary for a Blessing to function. As the kandra shapeshifts, its body retains enough instinctive knowledge to keep the Blessing intact, shifting organs and creating new ones as needed so that the Blessing continues to function even in non-human forms.

[Kurkistan]

@Millenium

I'm fairly sure you ended up agreeing with me by the end of your post, and I can see mistraiths having some instinctive ability to put bare spikes in the proper place. In fact, that's kind of necessary, assuming that there wasn't a lot of very messy trial and error when the survivors at the Pits tried to re-Blessing the Kandra after the end of HoA.

[Windrunner]

Possible, but there were also kandra in the other storage caverns on contract that could help out with the repair of the kandra as well.

[Satsuoni]

You know, from this interview:

In Mistborn #3 Hero of Ages: It isn't mentioned where all the Steel Inquisitors, Kandra, and Koloss went in the end. Do you feel that they were removed from the world and Sazed took all the lost souls to his better place?

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh survived. (He'll show up in the Mistborn sequel series.) The Kandra were restored, and have taken a vow to live only in animal bodies. There will never be any more of them, but they are functionally immortal. So you'll see them again. The Koloss who were in the cavern at the time survived, and were changed to become a race that breeds true, rather than Hemalurgic monsters. More below.

I have always kinda assumed that Sazed put the spikes back himself, with them becoming his servants and all, but I see that it is not clear. Still, he was, IIRC the only one who even knew that Kanra were spiked mistwraith (with the exception of other Kandra), and I am not sure there were any contractees during HoA.

@Millenium:

The spikes never completely decay, it is true. However, if, as you suggest, those spikes have decayed as much as they could, that is still a lot of power in something so completely drained:

Immediately, he felt power wash through him. His body became stronger. It was more than the simple adding of muscles—he could do that by re-forming his body. No, this gave each muscle an extra innate strength, making them work much better, much more powerfully, than they would have otherwise.

The Blessing of Potency. He’d stolen the two spikes from OreSeur’s body. Without this Blessing, TenSoon would never have been able to follow Vin as he had during their year together. It more than doubled the power and endurance of each muscle.

Mind you, I doubt that the spikes were fully charged to begin with, even, since it takes more than a single human to do that, though the maximum charge is limited.

Anyway, I am with Comatose on this one...

@Kurkistan

Well, as I said, I agree about the positioning possibly influencing result in Kandra. Still, the whole process is markedly different for them, given that they can remove whole organs and go without,and form additional ones, all the time maintaining the bind points of original spikes.

Anyway, back to topic: Kandra can indeed gain Allomancy (can't find the quote), so Kandrzilla will be able to eat Inquisitors and maybe absorb their power, becoming a giant super-powered crazed allomancer blob.

[Windrunner]

I have always kinda assumed that Sazed put the spikes back himself, with them becoming his servants and all, but I see that it is not clear. Still, he was, IIRC the only one who even knew that Kanra were spiked mistwraith (with the exception of other Kandra), and I am not sure there were any contractees during HoA.

Well, I am sure there were.

The Kandra.

Yes, they live. The people were smart enough, eventually, to replace their spikes. (And there were a couple who were on assignment who made it to storage caches.)

Source

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Anyway, back to topic: Kandra can indeed gain Allomancy

Yeah, but only Sazed knows how to do it.

[Inkthinker]

Hah! Depend on you guys to put more thought into this than I ever did.

Y'all sussed out the basic concept well enough... a mistwraith absorbs a koloss corpse which, for whatever reason, still contains the spikes. In doing so the spikes (which are already in the right place) are absorbed as well. Whether the mistwraith reuses the organs themselves, or creates new ones with the spikes in them, isn't super-relevant, but logically if the mistwraith's first kidney is a kidney with a spike in it, then it's going to think that's how kidney's are meant to be. As noted, unused spikes will hold a charge for a significant time, so it's reason

There is a certain amount of hand-waving happening here. We needed more antagonist options, and we wanted some new monsters, and this was an idea that gained tacit approval from Brandon. It helps expand upon why skaa fear the mistwraiths (mostly superstition, but occasionally because they run into something like this and word gets around), and it gives players something to fight, while encouraging gamemasters to look for other ways to work the magic system to create new threats.

[Kurkistan]

We also know that unassisted people also replaced at least some spikes.

EDIT: Oops, somehow didn't notice an entire second page after Windrunner's last post on the first one. Hi guys. 'Sup?

Edited March 2, 2013 by Kurkistan