Honor Died...

[Elwynn]

Haven’t posted a theory in a while…didn’t realize how much I missed it.

Ok, I’m tired of people saying we know Honor was alive when the vision of the Recreance happened. Never been confirmed. And personally, I think he was already Splintered and gone. But perhaps I should try to sway those who disagree.

Let’s get to it.

It pretty much starts here for me…

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

Hard to dispute that. Seems like maybe a KR who gave up their Plate and Blade. Either way, some of the KR still lived when Honor died. (Unless you want to dispute the validity of the dying visions…which is a-whole-nother conversation.)

Not enough for ya? Didn’t think it would be.

Okay…

We all know that some of the visions the Almighty shows Dalinar are past visions, and more than one of them are his fears for the future.

“Most of what I show you are scenes I have seen directly,” the figure said. “But some, such as this one, are born out of my fears. If I fear it, then you should too.”

Also remember that Honor is not the most adept at glimpsing the future.

The figure squinted at the horizon. “I cannot see the future completely. Cultivation, she is better at it than I. It’s as if the future is a shattering window. The further you look, the more pieces that window breaks into. The near future can be anticipated, but the distant future…I can only guess.”

Honor then goes on to show Dalinar a pretty intense vision of the True Desolation. I want to point out three things about the last vision in the book:

1) This is the only confirmed attempt to show the future

2) The vision is a metaphor.

The True Desolation—a stormwall of dust wrecks the world and tears away the stone of the earth, leaving…just the empty void. I mean, if you don’t agree that that’s at least partly a metaphor, you’re smoking something.

3) It’s highly detailed and feels the same to Dalinar as the past visions.

One of things that seems most off to me…is also the one up for the biggest interpretation.

“They are the first…”

“They are the first…”

“They were the first, and they were also the last.”

Now, I know when you read it straight through in the book…it doesn’t seem that odd. But look at it.

Why the repetition?

More importantly, why the change in verb tense?

That’s what bugs me more than anything. Doesn’t that look and sound like a broken record? Or something that has been re-recorded several times?

Seems to me Honor changed the vision several times as possible futures changed/became a little more clear.

Next biggest problem I find with this vision…

“These events will go down in history,” the Radiant said. “They will be infamous. You will have many names for what happened here.”

This screams to me ‘a guess at the future.’

Mainly because there aren’t ‘many names,’ there is only one. The Recreance. And if it happened before he died…wouldn’t the Almighty know the name?

Seems again, to me, that Honor is trying to relay his best guess at the fears he knows is coming.

And if you look at the phrasing, it certainly doesn’t sound like it already happened.

Now…

This is the only vision of Dalinar’s that has a section of it in which no one reacts/interacts with him. (Grant it, we haven’t seen all his visions, but we go with what we have.)

It is my thought that after Dalinar leaves Feverstone Keep, it ceases to be any sort of a confirmed vision. And becomes an attempt to relay fear of the future.

This is broken up of course, but still chronological.

The Radiants. They walked away from their discarded weapons. They all seemed individuals now, each walking alone despite the crowd.

“Wait!” he called. None of them turned.

Dalinar caught up to the Radiants—they weren’t walking very quickly—and grabbed one by the arm.

…The former Shardbearer pulled his arm free and continued to walk away.

…They walked with eyes forward, not speaking to one another, steps slow but resolute.

“Will someone tell me why?” Dalinar bellowed. “This is it, isn’t it? The Day of Recreance, the day you betrayed mankind. But why?” None of them spoke. It was as if he didn’t exist.

All bolded emphasis mine.

Doesn’t seem real to me. Almost like puppets in a play. Sure, they could be sad or heartbroken or something, or more likely angry or hurt; but instead…there’s absolutely nothing.

I think this is what happens when Honor tries to see things in the future that are a little hazy as to exactly how it will happen.

Take the quotes of the KR walking away, and think about the regular soldiers…

They just slaughtered everyone. Superiors in rank, friends, all for something that really they have no idea about.

I mean, they aren’t Radiants. So they will need gems to power the suits. But they don’t know this. So they won’t be able to immediately run around conquering everyone. More importantly, shouldn’t the suits fail completely and crush them since they can’t power them?

What do they tell their kingdoms and other superiors when they get back? What do they tell their families!?!

“Ummm…well…okay, we slaughtered everyone we were stationed with at Feverstone Keep…but look what we got!”

I simply don’t buy it.

It’s all a metaphor from the Almighty, just like the other future vision. The KR walking away slowly and silently; all the men rushing out in a mad scramble to fight over the Plate and Blades.

He’s telling Dalinar how the KR will give up their postions, and mankind will begin using the weapons against each other. Probably one of his biggest fears for the future, and exactly what Odium wants.

[hoser]

I like this theory.

However, responding simply to a minor point supporting the theory.

...

I mean, they aren’t Radiants. So they will need gems to power the suits. But they don’t know this. So they won’t be able to immediately run around conquering everyone. More importantly, shouldn’t the suits fail completely and crush them since they can’t power them?

...

Is there any supporting evidence for the notion that the suits didn't contain gems when the radiants used them? I've seen speculation that they didn't, to explain why Szeth doesn't use Shardplate, and it may even be true. But I've seen nothing that actually supports the thesis.

When I use speculation to support a theory, it seems to introduce a degree of circular logic. In addition, Shardblades might be enough to "run around conquering everyone".

I like the theory and do not mean to throw cold water on it, but I don't think the above paragraph actually strengthens the arguments for it.

Another point of interest to this theory is that someone asked this question at a recent signing and got RAFO'ed. If the common presumption is that this was a past vision, then the RAFO suggests otherwise.

[Meg]

This is a really fine theory though I'm not convinced. Sorry.

They just slaughtered everyone. Superiors in rank, friends, all for something that really they have no idea about.

Where do you get the idea, that "they really have no idea about?" This people knew the Knights Radiant, may some of them fought with them or at least saw them fighting. I'm nearly sure, that 'normal' soldiers were envious of the KR about their Shardplates and Shardblades and their abilities -- even if they didn't know how that worked. And here the greed come into play.

I mean, they aren’t Radiants. So they will need gems to power the suits. But they don’t know this. So they won’t be able to immediately run around conquering everyone. More importantly, shouldn’t the suits fail completely and crush them since they can’t power them?

Back again: We (aka Dalinar) didn't see what happened following this vision. So maybe you're right and they had to give up the Shardplates for not being able wearing them. But the Blades? They seem to work for everybody.

What do they tell their kingdoms and other superiors when they get back? What do they tell their families!?!

“Ummm…well…okay, we slaughtered everyone we were stationed with at Feverstone Keep…but look what we got!”

Did they have to tell it this way? Did they have to return? Did they have to admit that they "slaughtered everyone ...?" You see I'm not believing in the good thing inside mankind :-).

But ... I think my objections don't leverage your theory itself.

[Elwynn]

I like this theory.

However, responding simply to a minor point supporting the theory.

Is there any supporting evidence for the notion that the suits didn't contain gems when the radiants used them? I've seen speculation that they didn't, to explain why Szeth doesn't use Shardplate, and it may even be true. But I've seen nothing that actually supports the thesis.

Extremely good point. It is not confirmed that Radiants didn't need gems. I tend to look at the way the KR accessed the Stormlight freely and to varying degrees in 'Starfalls' chapter, along with BS quote...

Q: If you left Shardplate out in a Highstorm, would the Plate itself, not the the gemstones used to power it, become infused with Stormlight?

A: No, the Plate would not become infused with Stormlight. Now, you can take that to mean it can't hold Stormlight or that it already has Stormlight locked away inside it.

...and I tend to assume that KR had different ways of powering their Plate. But you're right, that was just a closing thought (and total speculation) on what changed about the Plate for normal people compared to KR.

Where do you get the idea, that "they really have no idea about?

Well, I don't really think it was a true accounting of history. But if it was...they may have fought next to KR, but I doubt any normal person up to that point would have had experience wearing Plate, and would probably know nothing of what is on the inside. But I was mainly using it for reasoning of why I don't think it was realiably true.

Did they have to tell it this way? Did they have to return? Did they have to admit that they "slaughtered everyone ...?" You see I'm not believing in the good thing inside mankind :-).

If it's a true accounting...they wouldn't have to admit anything. The rest of the military, and soon after many others, would find out that they wantonly slaughtered a whole lot of people. They would be outcasts...with a lot of people wanting revenge. Again, I was pointing out that the rest of the world wouldn't stand for something like that, and even Shardbearers can be brought down when overwhelmed.

But I was just using it to show why I don't think it could have been the real story of how the Recreance happened. Just a metaphor for the way humanity would turn on itself.

edit: because I realized I was about to double post.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Elwynn

[Satsuoni]

Well, about tose points:

1. The tense is exactly how I would have been speaking during the recording of events I was at. Mind you, I am not native english speaker, so I am not sure. But yeah, furst present, then past as the recording winds down.

2. The names.. Keep in mind, Recreance was a long time ago, at least about 500, before theocracy. It may have had several names, but lost most of them as time passed. Also, I think we only get Alethi talking about it, so that might be their name.

3. Well, Radiants were not immortal, so when one died, what happened to the Plate? Maybe some people did, in fact use it, for example form their Radiant relatives and battle comrades. It might be even a standard training (in case your Radiant officer falls or something).

4. The simplest lie they could tell is "Radiants went mad with power and tried to slaughter us, but we prevailed. Poor people, see the shiny loot." Or something to that effect. Since it was the first case of Radiants abandoning their positions, they may even be believed. Lots of ways to justify that.

5. Them walking away... well, the simplest explanation is that they didn't want to talk at that moment. It was pretty intense. Or maybe Dalinar messed the sequence, since I doubt he could actually alter the past. There are flaws in that argument, I know.

As for True Desolation being the metaphor... Maybe. I don't know. Maybe that is literally what Odium wants.

Also, Tanavast says:

Speak again the ancient oaths and return to men the Shards they once bore.

As if it is certain, not just his fear. As if it is something that has happened for him.

[Honor]

I'm not dead yet, in fact I'm feeling better.

[Voidus]

You bring up how the Radiants didn't respond when Dalinar tried to interact with them, the problem with that is why did all the other people react? They viewed him as a person with a consistent personality who was acting unusually, why on Roshar would Honor be able to (Or be bothered) foresee something so mundane and relatively changeable as a single group of people and their personalities (All of which were much likely to be changed than an event as huge as the Recreance) as compared to the recreance, so either Honor died in between Dalinar leaving the keep and catching up with the Radiants or else it seems likely to me that he was still alive the whole time and the Radiants just didn't particularly feel like stopping to explain themselves to some random guardsman who seemed to be spouting gibberish.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Voidus

[Elwynn]

Sat,

1. Hmmm, I'm not sure we understand each other. I was talking about the repetitive use of the same phrse, followed by an abrupt change in tense seconds later when he begins the actual message. There isn't any winding down nor long passage in time within the vision. But I might be missing what you're trying to say (really sorry if I am, just give it another shot). :)/>/>

2. That is actually a really good point I hadn't thought of, we only really get the Vorin view of things, (since we hear Shallan speak of it, and she is Veden), but other place might have some names we haven't seen yet. Still, several people from several nations call it the Recreance, so I have to stick with what I was saying.

3. I...don't really agree. I understand what you mean, and it's entirely possible, I just think it was all far more sacred and holy. Besides, that was just some opinion of mine in the end to try and express how ridiculous I thought it that a horrible slaughter happened that way, it's one of the more unreasonable things I've tried to imagine.

4. I understand they could lie, I just don't think every one of them would do it. I think others would soon find out, especially the rest of the military, and then there would be no way the world would stand for that. I think the story would have changed, but that's all opinion, I'll reiterate more stuff at the bottom.

5. Ya, certainly don't agree with that. Especially with the quotes...they weren't angry or mad, he didn't yell at Dalinar or give him a dirty look, nothing. It's like he wasn't even there, which BS points out. ;)/>/>

Well, I understand that the last vision might actually be endgame for Odium. But I don't think there is anyway that it will just happen, bam, like that. If he can do that...there's no need for desolations, and we've seen those. So he has to at least wipe out mankind first. He's just showing the Dalinar the need to fight. That's why I said, 'you've got see it's at least partly a metaphor.'

The quote doesn't seem to me it is certain at all. Take the whole chapter in context and he's basically begging for someone, anyone, to do something. To try, because it's almost over and he's trying to give clues on how to do it. He can see some of the future. He's got to know this was coming and is trying to give some last bit of hope.

You bring up how the Radiants didn't respond when Dalinar tried to interact with them, the problem with that is why did all the other people react? They viewed him as a person with a consistent personality who was acting unusually, why on Roshar would Honor be able to (Or be bothered) foresee something so mundane and relatively changeable as a single group of people and their personalities (All of which were much likely to be changed than an event as huge as the Recreance) as compared to the recreance,

I tend to think the opposite, that a single group of 'mundane' people would be far easier to see in the future than the KR exact acts during the Recreance. In fact, I can't fathom why on Roshar it would be easier to see the KR. But again...the whole thing is Honor's viewing of the Recreance (imo of course), I think it just changes into Honor's fear vision when feeling strikes him. Maybe I shouldn't have shirked the quotes.

...as he dashed among them, their light started to fade.

A terrible feeling struck him. A sense of immense tragedy, of pain and betrayal. Stopping where he stood, he gasped, hand to his chest. What was happening? What was that dreadful feeling, that screaming he swore he could almost hear?

The Radiants. They walked away from their discarded weapons. They all seemed individuals now, each walking alone despite the crowd.

I think it changes when the sense starts. I know some people think it's the spren dying, I don't. Why the mix of feelings and sense of dread? Why would the Almighty send that except to speak the best he could in metaphor? He doesn't say anything about the weapons making the noise, and he's usually pretty good at dropping one-line foreshadowing like that. I think that's the moment the vision changes, and I think BS points it out time and again as Dalinar runs among them and they act like zombies...but I already quoted those above.

so either Honor died in between Dalinar leaving the keep and catching up with the Radiants or else it seems likely to me that he was still alive the whole time and the Radiants just didn't particularly feel like stopping to explain themselves to some random guardsman who seemed to be spouting gibberish.

Lol, why would Dalinar suddenly be speaking gibberish? He speaks their languages just fine in the visions, in fact, it seems he speaks them just fine back in modern day Roshar as well. They didn't just not stop, they were like puppets. No emotion whatsoever. BS even points out 'it's like he wasn't there.' BS is the master of one-line foreshadowing to me, so maybe I read too much into it. I simply can't see it as reasonably real.

I actually take it as a good sign people mostly try to dispute the later comments and personal reasoning I was trying to pile up to back it all up, and not the actual substance of the theory.

I don't see how the former KR can not be seen as absolutely fake towards the end of the vision, seems to me BS points it out clearly several times. *shrug* But I guess everyone doesn't see it that way, and I can understand that.

But come on, the end parts are just my opinionated reasoning. Does no one want to take a stab at disputing the Death Rattle? I find that to be the base behind it all.

And the repeated message? I'm very curious how some of you guys see that. There's no reason for it, except an edited or changed message, that I can see. The change in tense is what does it for me. If you read it without all the filler between them, it...seems so off, so weird.

edit: because I am terrible at remembering to close tags.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Elwynn

[Kurkistan]

An interesting theory.

As others have said, though, my theory (and perhaps others like it, though I can't recall any at the moment) is not definite, so it's not the best grounds to lay yet another theory on.

As to the death rattles. There are several possible responses to this. Take your pick:

Option 1: It may be that taking on the Heralds as his champions restricted Honor, as he hopes to restrict Odium by having him take on a champion (IIRC). This could have two results:

i) Honor can only actually affect the world significantly through the Heralds, perhaps even only communicate through them. No Heralds and no desolations to draw them out, no effect on the world. See Opt. 3 for the consequences of that, even with a living Honor.

ii) Honor was left materially weakened by the Heralds breaking the Oath Pact. This could result in Honor being incapable of affecting the world as he was fighting a losing rear-guard battle against Odium from nearly the moment the Heralds left. So Honor would have been dedicating all his energy to staying alive and, in the end, composing the visions.

Option 2: This KR (if he is one), is currently chilling in Damnation and extremely annoyed at that fact, perhaps even after the Recreance. Reason enough to be mad at Honor.

Option 2.5: The aforementioned KR from hell can also see the current state of the world, and is more so annoyed at how the KR are remembered.

Option 3: Honor only ever communicated with the KR through the Heralds during desolations. The KR relied upon this regular oversight from the Heralds and the inevitability of the next desolation--to keep them honest and to maintain their legitimacy. When neither happened for a long time, a combo of negative public opinion ("why do I have to pay these tolls to get through Urithru?") and corruption within the organization brought them down to the point where the individual KR quit in disgust. God-hating follows.

Option 3.5: Post-"Final Desolation", at least, Honor could more be seen as a "hands off" diety who works in mysterious ways and makes sure everything turns out right in the end. Then things start going wrong, and it's god-blaming time, as the KR falls apart through corruption and whatnot as seen from Opt. 3.0.

---

Not that all of these are necessarily true or even plausible, but the death rattle isn't a silver bullet. Pick the options that you think hurt you the most and argue at us about it.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Satsuoni]

Ok, I'll try to reply.

0. Death rattle. Well, there is no exact theory about how they work - some people seem to talk themselves, like the Shin one, some seem to be replaced, but I think they always refer either present or possible glimpse of future, which may be untrue - sorry, no book now to check - but I think applies to this one, so it is description of current state (no Honor, Radiants broken) by somebody from the past, rather than somebody in the past speaking.

That is, of course, just an opinion.

1. Well, all Honor message encompass the end of the vision, as it starts to wind down. And this style, with repetition to both drive the point and to help me gather thoughts, and tense change to underscore the end, is more or less exactly how I would have formulated it, especially for an unseen observer, if I wanted to sound, well, pithy. But once again, not a native speaker. Honor does use the future tense next, when talking about naming, so my guess would be that he was killed soon after.

2. Well, that is just my opinion, that Recreance is indeed a Vorin name for the event, probably part of the official doctrine, and thus named in every nation following vorinism. Names do tend to get lost over time...

3. Well, what did happen to Shards of dead Radiants? Of course, they might have just disintegrated, but I find that unlikely. Or maybe there was a limited number of them to begin with... Still, that may be part of why they left to begin with - greed of others, being forced to fight other people, etc.

4. Oh, I won't be so sure. The human ability to lie and twist the truth never ceases to amaze me. Especially when it comes to event like this... They may just blame Radiants, as they did in the end. Or maybe Shards were already valuable enough to justify a few murders along the way, Amaram style.

5. Once again, that is perfectly consistent with how I would have reacted in such an event •shrug•. As in, I just abandoned my purpose, along with everyone else. The worst thing in this case would be trying to stop and explain why - that may shatter my resolve altogether. Just ignore those and go away...

And Dalinar was spouting gibberish- the name Recreance was not yet given, so him asking about it never made any sense... Like a person going to 0 AD and asking about Christmas decorations.

And for pain and betrayal... I am not sure. Maybe it was a lot of Radiants severing their bonds all at once, leaving Spren to go stupid again... Don't know. We'll know more once we understand more about Blade formation, etc.

[Dros]

I'm not dead yet, in fact I'm feeling better. ;)/>

"You're not foolin' anyone, ya know."

[Meg]

Option 2: This KR (if he is one), is currently chilling in Damnation and extremely annoyed at that fact, perhaps even after the Recreance. Reason enough to be mad at Honor.

Option 2.5: The aforementioned KR from hell can also see the current state of the world, and is more so annoyed at how the KR are remembered.

Please help me about this: Which KR do you mean? This one that seemingly talked to Dalinar?

[Kurkistan]

Please help me about this: Which KR do you mean? This one that seemingly talked to Dalinar?

Ah, sorry. I meant the one that is seemingly speaking through the death rattle in the OP.

[blackmagic3]

I haven't been reading this thread as thoroughly as I should so correct me if I am wrong or if somebody has already mentioned it but hasn't Dalinar had many more visions than we have seen. Therefore isn't it erroneous to assume that Honor died after the recreance.

[Elwynn]

I haven't been reading this thread as thoroughly as I should so correct me if I am wrong or if somebody has already mentioned it but hasn't Dalinar had many more visions than we have seen. Therefore isn't it erroneous to assume that Honor died after the recreance.

 

You are definitely right in that Dalinar has had several visions we're not privy to yet. But I'm a little confused why that would mean Honor couldn't die after the recreance. OP addresses it a little bit in that Honor shows Dalinar a vision of the True Desolation, which is most definitely in the future after Honor is long gone, and it feels like any other vision to Dalinar.

[Dros]

There weren't any spren. Or, at least, Dalinar never mentioned seeing any at the time. Surely, if Honor were dead at the time of the Recreance, the spren would have been clearly visible and agitated since they are splinters of Honor.

 

Now, it could be Honor didn't show any spren in the vision because he didn't know that would be the result after his death. But it shouldn't have been too much of a stretch for a Shard to know the consequences of his shattering I would think.

[Leuthie]

Spren weren't.mentioned. Doesn't mean they weren't there. Pretty sure spren are ignored by Rosharians most of the time. They are a part of.the landscape. Pretty sure spren were around and visible before Honor died. Pretty sure Brandon has said as much.

*edit* Pretty sure I said pretty sure way too often

Edited April 13, 2013 by Leuthie

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Spren weren't.mentioned. Doesn't mean they weren't there. Pretty sure spren are ignored by Rosharians most of the time. They are a part of.the landscape. Pretty sure spren were around and visible before Honor died. Pretty sure Brandon has said as much.

Yep.

According to Soru on the Something Awful Forums

I went to a Sanderson book signing today and whether spren existed before (Way of Kings ending spoiler) Odium killed the Almighty and shattered the Honor shard. His answer was that some of the spren existed, but some were different, and new ones existed after it.

I honestly have no idea if this is already well known or not as far as Cosmere-ology goes but it was fun, and he was basically the nicest guy ever.

[Dros]

It was my understanding that spren are splinters of Honor. I thought Brandon had said that, but obviously he said spren were around before, so...my point is moot I guess.  Curses.

[Elwynn]

It was my understanding that spren are splinters of Honor. I thought Brandon had said that, but obviously he said spren were around before, so...my point is moot I guess.  Curses.

 

They are...I think. I just woke up and braves play in a little bit so I can't go fishing for it. But I think spren are to splinters as seons are to splinters. So it's likely something the spren have or have been given. Like the aons at the seons center being the actual splinter.

 

And I think the key is that there are several different different kinds of spren, some around before Honor's fall, and some new ones later. Endowment has a circle of (re)life thing going on. Where splinters are given out and then used, the power returning to be used again, and most people think Endowment is still alive. So Honor could have done the same.

 

I don't think you're wrong or that any of that is moot. Just seems to be a little confusion.