Roshar-originated Animals and Gemhearts

[Meg]

Hey there!

While flipping through the Coppermind Wiki I ran about this information:

Like all Roshar-originated animals, chasmfiends had gemhearts that were among the largest gems known on Roshar and were therefore of immense value. The only way to safely get at the gemheart was to harvest it when the chasmfiend was pupating.

Vengeance Pact

And Brandon gave us this hint:

Q: Between the Parshendi and the Alethi harvesting gem-hearts, how long has it been since a Chasmfiend got to finish pupating?

A: Aha. I wondered if someone would ask that. Much like whaling in our own world, there is a big ecological price building for what is going on here. You are right to worry about this.

Forum Q&A

Roshar-originate animals would be e.g. Greatshells which include not only chasmfiends -- those are only the biggest ones -- but also chulls and others and for example axehounds as well.

We know at least that axehounds were bred. I think, chulls too, because they were used in many ways (pulling vehicles (as the ones Kaladin was brought to the Shattered Plains), bridges, being mounts ...). And I think, axehounds and chulls die. And looking at Shallan's sketch they are not really small.

So I don't want to suggest that animals should be bred only for getting their gemhearts. That's not my idea.

But if these animals have gemhearts too, it would seem natural to get the gemhearts out of them when they die. Has anyone an idea whether the Rosharian people do this? Even when the gemhearts are smaller than that from chasmfiends, I think it would help a bit, because gemhearts are not only needed at the war camps (but also for fabrials, lesser soulcasting, making money). Mining resources will not last endlessly neither chasmfiends.

And I'm not sure whether losing chasmfiends as sources for gemhearts is the only thing that BS meant when he gave the above quoted answer.

Any ideas?

[Vindicator]

I'm not sure whether the Alethi would do this. By harvesting a gemheart from a 'mundane' animal like a chull, the glory of the hunt would be denied to them, and the Alethi LOVE their shots at glory, hence the clashes against the Parshendi centering around the hearts.

It is plausible, but the Alethi might not want to use this as it doesn't pose a challenge, unlike a chasmfiend or other greatshells.

[Windrunner]

Fun fact that pertains to this discussion.

Brandon said on Twitter a long time ago that axehounds and chasmfiend are distantly related.

Does this mean they both have gemhearts? Or did the ancestors of axehounds go down an evolutionary path that didn't develop gemhearts, and the ancestors of the chasmfiend did? Maybe all the gems we see in spheres are actually harvested from smaller animals. There aren't that many greatshells to go around; chamsfiend, lanceryn, and the sea monsters are the only confirmed ones.

Just some fun discussion topics.

[Vindicator]

Fun fact that pertains to this discussion.

Brandon said on Twitter a long time ago that axehounds and chasmfiend are distantly related.

Does this mean they both have gemhearts? Or did the ancestors of axehounds go down an evolutionary path that didn't develop gemhearts, and the ancestors of the chasmfiend did? Maybe all the gems we see in spheres are actually harvested from smaller animals. There aren't that many greatshells to go around; chamsfiend, lanceryn, and the sea monsters are the only confirmed ones.

Just some fun discussion topics. :D/>

Ah, interesting thought. I was wondering how all those spheres were being made...

[Telcontar]

Did anyone else wonder why there seem only to be ten kinds of gemstone on Roshar? I mean, on our world there are so much more than that.

Maybe Rosharian animals are the only source for gemstones.

We know there is mining on Roshar from one of Szeth's POV in the Interludes. But those could very well be only for metal and coal and such things.

I always wondered how gemstones could have such extraordinary abilities. If all of those are indeed gemhearts, that would make it easier. As, after all, gemhearts in animals supposedly have some real function.

[CastleWall]

The idea of harvesting gems from dead axehounds/chull seems like a realistic opportunity and maybe an option that was explored. However, like our world, there are high quality stones and garbage stones. Maybe it is possible that through the course of the domestication of those 'shells they have either eliminated or greatly reduced the worth of the gems found in those entities.

[ReaderAt2046]

I think one of Gavilar's quotes mentions that, before they discovered the chasmfiends, the lanceryn were "the last creatures with gemhearts of any appreciable size." So maybe chull and axehound gemhearts are just two small to be worth harvesting?

[Windrunner]

Did anyone else wonder why there seem only to be ten kinds of gemstone on Roshar? I mean, on our world there are so much more than that.

Well, I do wonder if it's not so much that there are only ten kinds, but that these ten are the most valued on Roshar, due to their magical and religious connections. The other types would be "semi-precious" on Roshar, not really important to the plot. Kinda like how the 16 Allomanctic metals aren't the only metals on Scadrial. I think a far more interesting question is, can any other gem type hold Stormlight? The set of ten are referred to as "Polestones", which implies they are the main gems, but perhaps not the only ones?

[Turos]

“Perhaps,” Jasnah said. “The Parshendi seemed amused at our interest in the gemstones woven into their beards.” She smiled. “You should have seen our shock when we discovered where they’d gotten them. When the lanceryn died off during the scouring of Aimia, we thought we’d seen the last gemhearts of large size. And yet here was another great-shelled beast with them, living in a land not too distant from Kholinar itself.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (pp. 526-527). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Here's that quote. It seems this is the only place in the book where the word 'lanceryn' is used, as well. I wonder what they were like, but it sounds like they were only found in Aimia. I wonder if their gemhearts looked different.

Now this makes me think, would the creatures with gemhearts use the stormlight collected in them during the highstorms? If so, for what? Maybe they depend on stormlight somehow in their later stages of development.

Here's a crazy idea, maybe gems that can store stormlight are actually concentrated versions of it.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Turos

[Meg]

Fun fact that pertains to this discussion.

Brandon said on Twitter a long time ago that axehounds and chasmfiend are distantly related.

Does this mean they both have gemhearts? Or did the ancestors of axehounds go down an evolutionary path that didn't develop gemhearts, and the ancestors of the chasmfiend did? Maybe all the gems we see in spheres are actually harvested from smaller animals. There aren't that many greatshells to go around; chamsfiend, lanceryn, and the sea monsters are the only confirmed ones.

Just some fun discussion topics.

(emphasizes are mine)

This is actually the question that ran around in my brain when I made the OP (without knowing the twitter-note).

Maybe Rosharian animals are the only source for gemstones.

We know there is mining on Roshar from one of Szeth's POV in the Interludes. But those could very well be only for metal and coal and such things.

Hmm, if not all quarries where gems were mined where first made with a Soulcaster, there might be normal mines to get gems. (Here I think of Shallan's very first purpose why she wanted to become Jasnah's ward.)

Now this makes me think, would the creatures with gemhearts use the stormlight collected in them during the highstorms? If so, for what? Maybe they depend on stormlight somehow in their later stages of development.

Here's a crazy idea, maybe gems that can store stormlight are actually concentrated versions of it.

The latter is a nice idea. A kind of metabolism where the heart (or something else) transfers to a gemheart by feeding up stormlight?

A may be stupid question at the edge: Do we know why gemhearts are called so? I mean, because a gem could not beat, so how would this animals live?

[Turos]

Good question, although 'heart' can also be taken to mean 'core', and as they have to kill the creature to dig it out of its body, my opinion is that gemheart is more like a gem-at-the-core idea, but who knows. If it does surve a purpose and isn't something like an oyster's pearl where a grain of sand gets inside and happens to collect the same material that is produced to line the oyster's shells' inside, then the 'heart-as-an-organ-like-thing' idea could have some merit.

EDIT: Windrunning Chasmfiends

Edited January 18, 2013 by Turos

[Dahak]

Did anyone else wonder why there seem only to be ten kinds of gemstone on Roshar?

There are others since Shallan mentions using a soulcaster to make Jade. The ten are the opens that can't be made by soulcasting.

[ptoss1]

I kind of think the chasmfiends feed off of Stormlight.

Maybe their bodies are porous, so their gemhearts gather Stormlight to feed chasmfiends, and that's how they get so big.

[Meg]

Lately when I read a bit through some Kaladin-chapters I found this, when Syl prodded Kal about the blackbane leaves:

"Is it the heart of a beetle, so tiny yet powerful?"

Umm ... With a big, very big stretch one might say a beetle (not the car! :-)) is a very small miniature edition of a chull or a chasmfiend *cough*. But what of a beetle's heart could be "powerful" if it's not a very very small gemheart?

And going back to "chasmfiends feeding up stormlight". I just thought about how they should do this? Normally they live down the chasms -- will there be stormlight to be fed?

But maybe it's stormlight they need to pupate which is why they leave the chasms therefor. But that would be another topic.

[ptoss1]

Lately when I read a bit through some Kaladin-chapters I found this, when Syl prodded Kal about the blackbane leaves:

Umm ... With a big, very big stretch one might say a beetle (not the car! :-)) is a very small miniature edition of a chull or a chasmfiend *cough*. But what of a beetle's heart could be "powerful" if it's not a very very small gemheart?

And going back to "chasmfiends feeding up stormlight". I just thought about how they should do this? Normally they live down the chasms -- will there be stormlight to be fed?

But maybe it's stormlight they need to pupate which is why they leave the chasms therefor. But that would be another topic.

Ah good point. Didn't think about why they needed to leave the chasms to pupate, but perhaps that also has something to do with what they pupate into. LoL, giant butterflies of doom.

[king of nowhere]

I was under the impression of greatshells being the only animals with gemhearts, but I may be wrong. Do we have word of sanderson on this?

Anyway, even if chulls have gemhearts, they are bound to be much smaller than those of chasmfiends. Maybe they get harvested once the animal dies, but they are not the main source of gems. sort of like electricity generated from burning garbage, it is done but it have little impact on the national energy plan.

or maybe most gems are harvested from animals. It is not written where they come from in the book, but they certainly seem common enough to be widely used, which make me think of a renewable resource. But they don't need be. Look at how commonly petroleum is used in our world, for example.

Last, I am glad to see that sanderson adddressed the problem of overhunting the greatshells. I have been saying it all the time that that kind of hunt can't last for long.

[Meg]

Do we have word of sanderson on this?

I looked around but didn't find anything.

But I found something about gemhearts being 'intended' to store stormlight:

In The Way of Kings, I was looking for some sort of reservoir. Essentially, I wanted magical batteries, because I wanted to take this series toward developing a magical technology

(source: Theoryland)

(I know, this is not really belonging to the topic but I hope it's interesting.)