Oathpact

[Meg]

I looked around but didn't find a thread on this topic. If I missed one, please link it to me.

So, my thoughts:

I claim that the Oathpact had not been really terminated that 4,500 years ago.

1.

"I was chosen to wait for you. (...) A ... a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end."

And -- imho -- in contrariety:

Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough."

(Jezrien's words in the Prelude)

2.

TWoK read somewhere else than the Prelude that the "Oathpact" ended; too, in some postings that is stated.

I understand this like one thinks the Oathpact is terminated, finished and that this is a fixed fact.

May be this comes of misunderstandings of myself (lacking the subtleties of the English language).

3.

I personally am sure that the Oathpact itself is not "over", because Taln is still bound to it. Why should he come back (in the Epilogue) if not because of him being still bound to the Oathpact?

4.

So I resume that not "The Oathpact" itself ended. By deciding to cancel their bonds to the Oathpact the other 9 Heralds stepped out of this kind of contract but the contract itself maintained and therefore Taln was sent to Kholinar ...

So may be there are gasps in this worried posting but I wished to do it though I'm very tired.

[Voidus]

The other confirmation of it was the voice from the storm to Kaladin, which is probably someone with a good knowledge of the oathpact and so would know. I think that the Oathpact required 10 heralds and was not 10 individual Oathpacts for each Herald and so even if one of them still follows it, the Oathpact as a whole is still broken.

MEN RIDE THE STORMS NO LONGER. The voice was thunder, crashing in the air. THE OATHPACT IS

BROKEN, CHILD OF HONOR.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Voidus

[Elwynn]

Definitely a good thought there.

That second quote is what bothers me more than anything about the Prelude. Depending on how you want to take it, it can sound like it means a couple different things...i.e. they want to end the oathpact, but one staying bound might be enough...enough for what. I thought they wanted to end it? /rant

I hate that single sentence with a passion.

But I think you might be right here. Taln is sent back after all, but thinks he's failed.

You have the quote at the beginning of some chapter saying, "the burdens of nine become mine...etc", so he might have been holding on to the oathpact all these years.

One other thing to back up your theory here...

BS has been asked a question...and I can't remember the exact question, I'll go look for it...but he never says things like, "...when the Heralds broke the oathpact..." It's always something like, "...back when the Heralds did their thing..." And we all know BS can be coy and misleading, so...

Good thoughts.

[Windrunner]

I always figured it "might be enough to" keep Odium bound. My interpretation of the Oathpact has always been that neither Shard was allowed to directly interfere with Roshar or one another, they couldn't change things directly, like Vin and Ruin did. Odium and Honor had to work even more through servants then R&P, Unmade, Voidbringers, and Voidbinders for Odium and the Heralds, Knights Radiant, and Surgebinders for Honor. If the Oathpact held, Odium still couldn't do much of anything to act against Honor, who I believe was much weaker then Odium, or Roshar.

[Meg]

The other confirmation of it was the voice from the storm to Kaladin, which is probably someone with a good knowledge of the oathpact and so would know. I think that the Oathpact required 10 heralds and was not 10 individual Oathpacts for each Herald and so even if one of them still follows it, the Oathpact as a whole is still broken.

... the Oathpact is broken ...

It may be broken but perhaps there is a possibility left to repair it? I can't help myself but believe that "broken", too, doesn't imply a final destruction for the Oathpact.

But I think you might be right here. Taln is sent back after all, but thinks he's failed.

Ah yes :-), I'm curious to find out why he thinks he failed, and whether he really failed. (My thought is that he could not have failed, at least not completely, because otherwise there would not come 9 more books.)

You have the quote at the beginning of some chapter saying, "the burdens of nine become mine...etc", so he might have been holding on to the oathpact all these years.

Agreed. Another point I lost.

Good thoughts.

Thank you. ;-)

I always figured it "might be enough to" keep Odium bound. My interpretation of the Oathpact has always been that neither Shard was allowed to directly interfere with Roshar or one another, they couldn't change things directly, like Vin and Ruin did. Odium and Honor had to work even more through servants then R&P, Unmade, Voidbringers, and Voidbinders for Odium and the Heralds, Knights Radiant, and Surgebinders for Honor. If the Oathpact held, Odium still couldn't do much of anything to act against Honor, who I believe was much weaker then Odium, or Roshar.

Sorry, actually I don't get what is "R&P" means. (I hate :-) most of the abbreviations used because I often don't get their meaning.)

[lDanielHolm]

Ruin and Preservation.

[hoser]

I looked around but didn't find a thread on this topic. If I missed one, please link it to me.

I think you are asking a key question. The following threads discuss the oathpact, but largely make assumptions about the question you are asking:

• In this thread, this thread (one post) and this thread, the nature of the Oathpact is discussed.
  
• In this thread, Elwynn spins an amazing theory about Nohadon changing the Oathpact, with much relevant discussion.
  

So, my thoughts:

I claim that the Oathpact had not been really terminated that 4,500 years ago.

1.

And -- imho -- in contrariety:

(Jezrien's words in the Prelude)

2.

TWoK read somewhere else than the Prelude that the "Oathpact" ended; too, in some postings that is stated.

I understand this like one thinks the Oathpact is terminated, finished and that this is a fixed fact.

May be this comes of misunderstandings of myself (lacking the subtleties of the English language).

3.

I personally am sure that the Oathpact itself is not "over", because Taln is still bound to it. Why should he come back (in the Epilogue) if not because of him being still bound to the Oathpact?

4.

So I resume that not "The Oathpact" itself ended. By deciding to cancel their bonds to the Oathpact the other 9 Heralds stepped out of this kind of contract but the contract itself maintained and therefore Taln was sent to Kholinar ...

So may be there are gasps in this worried posting but I wished to do it though I'm very tired.

The nature of the Oathpact seems key to answering this question. For now, I just provide the links and an upvote. Later, if I can think coherently on the subject, I may edit in some speculation.

I am curious about your point 4. Does the first sentence mean the same as "So I presume that "The Oathpact" itself had not ended."?

Edited December 24, 2012 by hoser

[Meg]

At first: thanks for the links. I've read through the linked threads but I've got to think about it a bit more.

I am curious about your point 4. Does the first sentence mean the same as "So I presume that "The Oathpact" itself had not ended."?

Yes, I meant "presume" but forgot the "p". When I think about it now, I'd like to say: "I'm quite sure that "The Oathpact" itself had not ended."

Merry Christmas to you all.

[Meg]

I think you are asking a key question. The following threads discuss the oathpact, but largely make assumptions about the question you are asking:

• In this thread, this thread (one post) and this thread, the nature of the Oathpact is discussed.
• In this thread, Elwynn spins an amazing theory about Nohadon changing the Oathpact, with much relevant discussion.

Oh dear! You got me a lot to read and I find myself struggling on so much 'input'. Elwynn's posting is very intriguing. And it shows me that I'm lacking lots of basics and, too, the understanding of the greater relationships in or about the cosmere, which I believe is necessary to make real conclusions. :/ And despite my lacks (or therefore?) I'm still attached to my idea that the Oathpact is not unrecoverable lost.

One thought (I dare put here, because it belongs to the topic): Somebody questioned whether the 9 gone Heralds could die, whereat somebody else answered that they would have to go to torture if they died. I can't agree to this answer because I think only the Heralds dieing while wielding their blade (which means dieing through a desolation and being actually bound to the Oathpact) end up in torture. The 9 other Herolds gave up their blades and left the Oathpact. Though I don't have any idea whether they stay immortal or not, I'm quite sure they don't go to torture. So this is no real answer to the original question (can the Heralds die), I know, but therefor I don't have one.

[hoser]

What is the Oathpact? From pact we gather that it is an agreement between parties. The "oath" part is more mysterious. Did the parties take oaths? Does the Radiant oaths relate? Honor is big on oaths, do the other parties use oaths too?

Who are the parties? I would say the Shardholders Honor and Odium, plus maybe Cultivation. What are the terms? The Heralds seem clearly to be affected parties. The Honorblades seem to relate also. The Heralds may predate Rosharian Shardic settlement, seem to be immortal, are subject to torture if they die or yield themselves between desolations, are brought back just before Desolations and I imagine have extraordinary powers. The Voidbringers and desolations seem to be other aspects of the Oathpact more under Odium's influence.

Is surgebinding part of the Oathpact? Are honorspren and the Radiants part of the oathpact or are they an independant initiative of Honor? According to Elwynn's theory, Nohadon found a Dawnshard and reconfigured the rules for surgebinding. The problem I have had with this theory is that I imagine the Dawnshards to be the Shards of Adonalsium. If Tanavast gave up Honor he would die and I think Tanavast lived past Nohadon's time. That leaves two possibilities that I can only explain by referring to the Mistborn series.

1. Honor established the rules for the Radiants and their oaths long before Nohadon, just like Preservation empowered more metals than the mistborn knew. Nohadon or one of his contemporaries just learned them at that time.
   
2. There was some alternate manifestation of Shardic energy that could be harnessed while Tanavast still held the Shard itself, much like Vin and the Lord Ruler used Ruin's power while Ruin still held the Shard itself. Some contemporary of Nohadon's (or Nohadon himself) used that power to reconfigure surgebinding.
   

If the Oathpact is an agreement between Honor and Odium, and Odium has already shattered Honor and Cultivation, how can the Oathpact still exist? Why would Odium's actions be constrained in any way? I can think of the following possibilities.

1. Odium will be shattered if he violates the Oathpact.
   
2. The Oathpact is an irrevocable commitment of the energy that would be needed to destroy Rosharian civilization. Without that energy, Odium is unable to destroy the world.
   
3. Destroying Rosharian civilization outside of the Oathpact terms would mean never getting that investment of power back (or at least not for a long time).
   

If we follow this speculative chain, then the Oathpact as a living agreement between active parties is clearly done, but the Shardic investments continue. Taln and the final desolation are constrained by the terms of the Shardic investment. The remaining Heralds or anybody bearing the Honorblades may be able to opt into the use of the Shardic power.

Edited December 29, 2012 by hoser

[Meg]

What is the Oathpact? From pact we gather that it is an agreement between parties. The "oath" part is more mysterious. Did the parties take oaths?

I think, each party gave an oath to the other(s) and as long as each party abides to their oath the pact is valid and each party is bound to this agreement (here: The Oathpact).

Does the Radiant oaths relate?

*don't understand* :/ Do you mean:

Does the Radiant oath relate

to thus of the Oathpact or

come from thus of the Oathpact (quasi adapt them) or

something else?

Without really understanding: Did the Knight Radiants have oaths? They had their Ideals, but were they oath-bound too -- erm, to whom or what? The Almighty? The Stormfather?

Honor is big on oaths, do the other parties use oaths too?

In this special case (Oathpact) I think: yes, but I have to admit that I didn't yet give this matter further thoughts.

Who are the parties? I would say the Shardholders Honor and Odium, plus maybe Cultivation. What are the terms? The Heralds seem clearly to be affected parties. The Honorblades seem to relate also. The Heralds may predate Rosharian Shardic settlement, seem to be immortal, are subject to torture if they die or yield themselves between desolations, are brought back just before Desolations and I imagine have extraordinary powers. The Voidbringers and desolations seem to be other aspects of the Oathpact more under Odium's influence.

Good questions. May be Honor brought in the Heralds (and their Honorblades) for his part of this pact and in turn Odium couldn't bring himself to Roshar but 'only' the Voidbringers and with them the Desolations. So it was an agreement to avoid a direct conflict between Honor (and Cultivation?) and Odium.

But where did the Heralds come from? Ah, I found it. They come from the Spiritual Realm.

[Ashir] "Besides, what good will a cook be in the Spiritual Realm?"

[Geranid] "Herald's need food."

(TWoK, I-8)

Is the Spiritual Realm the same thing as the Tranquiline Halls? If yes, then the Heralds we know (from the Prelude) may be part of the survivors of that event, when the Voidbringers forced out mankind from the Tranquiline Halls? May be for the Oathpact to become a binding agreement 10 people could volunteer for the Heralds' "job" which gave them the Honorblades and some specific powers to equal the monstrosities fighting against mankind through the Desolations and who had in turn to endure life in "Damnation" between the Desolations?

That would mean, the Oathpact was concluded to save mankind (which had fled to Roshar) from being cast off there to. This in addition to the prevention of a straight fight between Honor and Odium (as above mentioned).

Is surgebinding part of the Oathpact?

I don't have any idea about this.

Are honorspren and the Radiants part of the oathpact or are they an independant initiative of Honor?

IMHO the latter.

According to Elwynn's theory, Nohadon found a Dawnshard and reconfigured the rules for surgebinding. The problem I have had with this theory is that I imagine the Dawnshards to be the Shards of Adonalsium. If Tanavast gave up Honor he would die and I think Tanavast lived past Nohadon's time. That leaves two possibilities that I can only explain by referring to the Mistborn series.

I've to admit that Elwynn's linked posting is overstraining me a 'bit' :-). Oh, I had lots of thoughts rambling around in my brain. Most are lost now.

So about Nohadon: Somewhere in TWoK is mentioned that the Knight Radiants had been founded by the Heralds, who had given them their Immortal Words/Ideals too. I don't see (may be I missed it) that the Knight Radiants are as old as the Heralds. I could imagine that Nohadon indeed interacted with the Heralds and that his day was that of the Knight Radiants' foundation. But I guess the Ideals came from the Heralds given to the Orders of the Knight Radiants and Nohadon took over this as his way of life (and therefore went from Abamar to Urithiru and later on wrote this book that, once written, got the laid down guide for the Knight Radiants to have something to refer when the Heralds were in Damnation).

Or so ...

1. Honor established the rules for the Radiants and their oaths long before Nohadon, just like Preservation empowered more metals than the mistborn knew. Nohadon or one of his contemporaries just learned them at that time.
   
2. There was some alternate manifestation of Shardic energy that could be harnessed while Tanavast still held the Shard itself, much like Vin and the Lord Ruler used Ruin's power while Ruin still held the Shard itself. Some contemporary of Nohadon's (or Nohadon himself) used that power to reconfigure surgebinding.
   

damnation :-) -- if I understand your first point right, it goes in the same direction as my above passage?

For the second point I don't have any ideas about it. Sorry.

(please find my answers inside the spoiler)

If the Oathpact is an agreement between Honor and Odium, and Odium has already shattered Honor and Cultivation, how can it still exist?

"It"? Roshar? The Oathpact itself?

Why would Odium's actions be constrained in any way? I can think of the following possibilities.

1. Odium will be shattered if he violates the Oathpact.
   
2. The Oathpact is an irrevocable commitment of the energy that would be needed to destroy Rosharian civilization. Without that energy, Odium is unable to destroy the world.
   
3. Destroying Rosharian civilization outside of the Oathpact terms would mean never getting that investment of power back (or at least not for a long time).
   

If we follow this speculative chain, then the Oathpact as a living agreement between active parties is clearly done, but the Shardic investments continue. Taln and the final desolation are constrained by the terms of the Shardic investment. The remaining Heralds or anybody bearing the Honorblades may be able to opt into the use of the Shardic power.

I see that you are dividing the Oathpact as an agreement from its repercussions for (on?) the Shardic investments that had been its effect. Am I right here? That is a good point. But I'm not convinced of this conclusion though I can more easily follow your theory than that one which gives up for lost the Oathpact in its totality.

Anymore I believe Taln is still bound to the Oathpact and that the Oathpact is in abeyance and can brought back to use, despite the death of Honor. May be, Taln thinks, he failed because he could not do or did not enough to save Honor. *shrug*

I hope someone is able to understand my thoughts. If there are obscurities, please point it out.

[hoser]

...

*don't understand* :/ Do you mean:

Does the Radiant oath relate

to thus of the Oathpact or

come from thus of the Oathpact (quasi adapt them) or

something else?

Without really understanding: Did the Knight Radiants have oaths? They had their Ideals, but were they oath-bound too -- erm, to whom or what? The Almighty? The Stormfather?

I meant the ideals, two of which Kaladin commits to in the form of oaths. I think committing to the ideals is effectively taking oaths.

To whom? Good question. I don't know that there needs to be a second party that one commits to. There is apparently something observing and providing Shardic power in response. I wonder if a Nahel bond w/a spren is also a precondition for getting the power.

...

But where did the Heralds come from? Ah, I found it. They come from the Spiritual Realm.

(TWoK, I-8)

Is the Spiritual Realm the same thing as the Tranquiline Halls? If yes, then the Heralds we know (from the Prelude) may be part of the survivors of that event, when the Voidbringers forced out mankind from the Tranquiline Halls? May be for the Oathpact to become a binding agreement 10 people could volunteer for the Heralds' "job" which gave them the Honorblades and some specific powers to equal the monstrosities fighting against mankind through the Desolations and who had in turn to endure life in "Damnation" between the Desolations?

I don't think physical people would inhabit the Spiritual Realm long term, so I have trouble seeing the Spiritual Realm as the Tranquilline Halls. But what planet would be called "Halls"? Did Honor make "Halls" in the Spiritual Realm somehow?

...

"It"? Roshar? The Oathpact itself?

The Oathpact (I edited the post to clarify also.).

...

Anymore I believe Taln is still bound to the Oathpact and that the Oathpact is in abeyance and can brought back to use, despite the death of Honor. May be, Taln thinks, he failed because he could not do or did not enough to save Honor. *shrug*

...

I agree that the Shardic energy involved with the Oathpact brought Taln back and may be able to be tapped into further. To the extent that Odium has free will, I don't think that he will adhere to the Oathpact's provisions unless it suits his purposes.

But really, I've got more questions than answers, which is what I get for speculating on the basis of so little evidence.

I hope this helps.