Guest Galavantes Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 My original theory was that TLR's massive allomantic strength came from his ability to compound investiture. The exact mechanics of it however were at best a guess. Now with a slightly more solid idea of exactly -what- investiture is I think we can pin this theory down fairly well. We now know that some (or perhaps all) people are imbued with some degree of a Shard's power. Brandon calls this investiture. In the case of a mistborn, the degree of investiture effects their allomantic strength (Vin was stronger than Kelsier and became VERY strong when she was able to consume the mists and turbo-boost her investiture). TLR was able to *compound* investiture. And as a health compounder has effectively unlimited health, TLR had nearly unlimited investiture, and a corresponding boost in allomantic strength. Thus his ability to pierce copper clouds, his mega-soothing, and pushing on metals within someone's body. Seems pretty solid to me. Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 The only problem here is where did he get the Nicrosil needed to compound investiture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galavantes Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 To my knowledge we don't know the source of nicrosil (someone please correct me if we do). But considering the knowledge TLR possessed, and the fact that he essentially ran the world, getting his hands on as much as he needed doesn't seem out of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 (edited) Wouldn't it be just as easier (nay, easier, given that we don't know TLR had knowledge of nicrosil) to assume he just compounded brass, pewter, and everything else? Would this not achieve the same effect without directly altering investiture? Scratch that, sorry. For some reason (it's early, baby kept me up last night, that's my excuse!) I thought compounding would give a greater allomantic burst - it doesn't, it gives a super ferruchemical burst. So yeah, ignore what I said before. Edited September 30, 2012 by Senor Feesh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galavantes Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Also we shouldn't under estimate what TLR knew. Brandon has said more than once that he knew a LOT. Even regarding the Cosmere itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 I would say that he probably did know of the other metals, we might even have WoB on that, but I can't quite recall. The problem is that firstly I'm not sure they would have had the technology to make Nicrosil during the Final Empire, otherwise I suspect that Mistborn would have discovered it (Same reason Almunium wasn't discovered by most) They might be able to procure a small amount but TLR would need quite large reserves to compound it for a thousand years. And we should have seen his Nicrosilminds, I suspect that Sazed should have gone over all his metalminds to see what they were and would have realised that one was a new type of metal. I do think that this is definitely a possibility for his abilities but we do need to explain a few things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galavantes Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 I think it's a common error to assume that he would need a massive amount of metal in order to compound. Yes he would burn through some, but we've seen that a little bit of metal can store quite a bit of power. Ie: a single bead of Atium can store enough age to return an adult to childhood. And a small bag of it has lasted Marsh for at least a few hundred years. You compare it's availability to aluminium, which the steel ministry had in at least enough excess to use on Vin. Also TLR likely would have kept it's existence quite. As his super-allomancy just helped promote his god like status. As for why we didn't see his metalminds listed in the narrative, well we discussed that in the chat last night. He had quite a few metalminds that weren't explicitly described in the book. He was known to wear many rings and bracalets, supposedly as a form of bravado. We also know for a fact that he had at least a goldmind and a metalmind to store speed (sorry don't have my chart in front of me), despite neither of those being specifically described. So the fact that the narrative never showed Sazed thinking, "Huh, not sure what this metal is." isn't really a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeShroom Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Assuming that TLR didn't have the means to produce enough Nicrosil to sustain Compounding it for one thousand years, I'm guessing that it's entirely possible that once he took up the power at the Well that he created a large supply of nicrosil for himself. Then again, we have Word of Brandon that pre-TLR Scadrial was advanced enough in technology that they were close to having trains, so it's possible that they had the means to produce Nicrosil, and that Rashek then simply saved all the nicrosil he could find for himself, and then proceeded to erase knowledge of it. You compare it's availability to aluminium, which the steel ministry had in at least enough excess to use on Vin. I don't think a one-time use to drain her of her metals really proves anything. They had no other use for it, barring hemalurgy, and Vin was a Mistborn, so naturally they'd use it to drain her supply of metals, and it wouldn't be much of a waste. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galavantes Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 I don't think a one-time use to drain her of her metals really proves anything. They had no other use for it, barring hemalurgy, and Vin was a Mistborn, so naturally they'd use it to drain her supply of metals, and it wouldn't be much of a waste. Fair enough. Still I don't think lack of supply is a serious concern for someone of TLR's knowledge and power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 As for why we didn't see his metalminds listed in the narrative, well we discussed that in the chat last night. He had quite a few metalminds that weren't explicitly described in the book. He was known to wear many rings and bracalets, supposedly as a form of bravado. We also know for a fact that he had at least a goldmind and a metalmind to store speed (sorry don't have my chart in front of me), despite neither of those being specifically described. So the fact that the narrative never showed Sazed thinking, "Huh, not sure what this metal is." isn't really a problem. Sazed is a feruchemist so he would have been able to tell whether or not it was a feruchemical metal by touching it, he most certainly would have mentioned the existence of a new metal to Vin had he found one. And a small bag of it has lasted Marsh for at least a few hundred years. TLR is many, many times stronger than a normal allomancer, he'd be tapping Nicrosil at a higher rate than Marsh is and he's been using it for a thousand years. Actually now that I think about it did they even have Nicrosil in AoL times? It was mentioned in the Arcanum but I seem to recall Brandon saying they didn't actually have Nicrosil or Chromium yet. If so it's even more unlikely that TLR would have been able to stockpile it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galavantes Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Sazed is a feruchemist so he would have been able to tell whether or not it was a feruchemical metal by touching it, he most certainly would have mentioned the existence of a new metal to Vin had he found one. That's what I'm saying. Just because the event wasn't specifically described in the book doesn't mean it didn't happen behind the scenes so to speak. Actually showing that particular conversation does not progress the story and only serves to introduce a plot point that Brandon had no intention of explaining. The fact that we didn't see it happen doesn't mean anything. TLR is many, many times stronger than a normal allomancer, he'd be tapping Nicrosil at a higher rate than Marsh is and he's been using it for a thousand years. Again I think you're over estimating how much metal is required for his compounding. Keep in mind that TLR's base investiture is already much higher than the mistborns we've seen. He was a "1st generation" mistborn, which puts him on par with Elend. In addition he was a Sliver of Preservation, which boosts him even further. Then recall that compounding is *exponential*, meaning he gets more bang than any other mistborn would for compounding his investiture. Actually now that I think about it did they even have Nicrosil in AoL times? It was mentioned in the Arcanum but I seem to recall Brandon saying they didn't actually have Nicrosil or Chromium yet. If so it's even more unlikely that TLR would have been able to stockpile it. TLR had access to more technology than the general public. Gunpowder for sure that we know of. Just because he didn't share the ability to create Nicrosil doesn't mean that he, the single most powerful man on the planet, couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 The fact that we didn't see it happen doesn't mean anything. If Vin new about Nicrosil they definitely would have been used in the siege of Luthadel. And if she'd found Nicrosil chances are she'd be looking for Chromium too, since that would have been hugely helpful against enemy allomancers, but even Nicrosil would have helped, she could have depleted all of Zanes atium the second he blocked her. In addition he was a Sliver of Preservation, which boosts him even further. So was Vin, she didn't get boosted. TLR had access to more technology than the general public. Gunpowder for sure that we know of. Just because he didn't share the ability to create Nicrosil doesn't mean that he, the single most powerful man on the planet, couldn't. It's not a matter of allomantic strength he would've needed the technology and someone would almost certainly have found out, even if it was one of the inquisitors. Additionally unless he went out on mining expeditions himself he would've needed help, I don't think that he had more tech than AoL did. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Why would Sazed have just known it was feruchemically viable? I can see him sorting through the metalminds and being like, huh this one looks funny. Or maybe TLR was sneaky about metals he didn't want getting out. Wrap a nicrosil mind in a layer of gold iron, or whatever and have two connection points hidden in the ring band. I can see him doing so just in case a metalmind was stolen during one of those assassination attempts early on. He could easily have compounded investiture although I would guess being a sliver made hin nore powerful than anything else. Or maybe there is inverse compounding... Burn a metal allomantically and store it in a metalmind. Then burn the metalmind.(I doubt it but the compounder we've seen would never bother.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Why would Sazed have just known it was feruchemically viable? Feruchemists can detect metals that they can use, I'll try to find the quote for it. I don't think TLR would go to that much trouble to hide his nicrosilminds, if someone can steal those, they can steal his atiumminds which would kill him so he's better off just killing anyone who tries and he was rather arrogant in his abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galavantes Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 If Vin new about Nicrosil they definitely would have been used in the siege of Luthadel. And if she'd found Nicrosil chances are she'd be looking for Chromium too, since that would have been hugely helpful against enemy allomancers, but even Nicrosil would have helped, she could have depleted all of Zanes atium the second he blocked her. Any nicrosil they found on TLR would have been useless as an allomantic metal, because it had been turned into a metal mind. Just like how Vin couldn't burn Sazed's metalminds. So was Vin, she didn't get boosted. Vin did not take the power at the well. It's not a matter of allomantic strength he would've needed the technology and someone would almost certainly have found out, even if it was one of the inquisitors. Additionally unless he went out on mining expeditions himself he would've needed help, I don't think that he had more tech than AoL did. I'm not talking about his allomantic strength here. He is the most powerful man in the world in the same way the president is considered to be. As in his influence and resources. And he definitely kept tech away from the public, Brandon has stated that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Any nicrosil they found on TLR would have been useless as an allomantic metal, because it had been turned into a metal mind. Just like how Vin couldn't burn Sazed's metalminds. But they would have known what it was, and TLR would need more Nicrosil stores which they could have looked for. Vin did not take the power at the well. She still held it and is still a Sliver. I'm not talking about his allomantic strength here. He is the most powerful man in the world in the same way the president is considered to be. As in his influence and resources. And he definitely kept tech away from the public, Brandon has stated that. He repressed tech, he didn't hoard it for himself. Like I said he would've needed skaa to mine the Chromium for him, which someone would have found out, unless there was another Pit of Hathsin, but then the Nobles would've found out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Galavantes Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 But they would have known what it was, and TLR would need more Nicrosil stores which they could have looked for. She still held it and is still a Sliver. He repressed tech, he didn't hoard it for himself. Like I said he would've needed skaa to mine the Chromium for him, which someone would have found out, unless there was another Pit of Hathsin, but then the Nobles would've found out... Sorry man I see where you're coming from with all this, but I really don't think any of it possess a problem either in the narrative or for someone with TLR's knowledge and resources, which were vast. Many of these arguments could be made for ANY method that TLR would have used for boosting his allomancy via compounding, which we know from Brandon that he did in fact do. I'm simply offering an explanation of the mechanic itself. Ie: boosting his connection with preservation via investiture compounding. His methods for procuring and keeping nicrosil a secret are at best guesswork on our parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeShroom Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 She still held it and is still a Sliver. She died before, or around the same time that she became a Sliver, so unlike TLR, she never any of the Metallic Arts after becoming a Sliver, and so we don't know if Rashek's being a Sliver of Preservation boosted his strength or not, because at the moment he's the only known example we have. Although, I don't believe his being a Sliver boosted his abilities significantly, myself, or Sazed would've mentioned it in the epigraphs, but what he said was that TLR had the same basic Allomantic strength as any of the original nine Mistborn. He repressed tech, he didn't hoard it for himself. Like I said he would've needed skaa to mine the Chromium for him, which someone would have found out, unless there was another Pit of Hathsin, but then the Nobles would've found out... There are duralumin and aluminium to consider. And Electrum, too. No one seemed to know about those other than the Inquisitors and TLR, but someone had to copy his writings onto the metal sheets, the obligators. If the skaa were mining a secret metal for him, they wouldn't have known, even if there were mistings among the miners, after all, no skaa that we saw during the Final Empire and after the Collapse knew about aluminium or duralumin, yet TLR still had those metals available to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 She died before, or around the same time that she became a Sliver ? She held the power in WoA which was around a year before she died. Electrum is an alloy so no new mining is needed, Aluminium does have other purposes, it's main difficulty IIRC is in extracting the metal from the ore, not mining the ore (Which is one of the most common on earth and so could have been picked up from anywhere.) and they barely used Aluminium anyway, I can see 1 or two flakes easy enough but whole items of jewellery and a continuous supply? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Since Nicrosil can be filled with investiture from other types of metalminds, he wouldn't necessarily need to compound it directly. That would mean only needing a small amount of Nicrosil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenegadeShroom Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 My understanding was that because she didn't take up the power at the Well, she never touched the Shard's power, and didn't become a Sliver until she took up Preservation after Leras' death, when she attacked Ruin and killed both herself and Ati in doing so, no? She can hardly be a Sliver if she never holds the power. Oh, good points about the metals, though. Still, someone does need to physically procure the ore, and I think that TLR would want some Aluminium for testing it Feruchemically and Hemalurgically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 You're right on the Hemalurgy front, I didn't think of that. But he probably would have experimented with Nicrosil on that too, which makes me wonder more and more how no one else knew about it :S 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 He successfully pulled off an elaborate gambit that no one ever discussed outside of a metal room by which he concealed that he was transferring Atium directly from the pits to the Kandra, and not one of the nobles who "administrated" the pits ever once found out about it or even realized they were shipping empty geodes. I think concealing a few pounds of metal is well within the known capabilities of the Steel Orthodoxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Unless he gets the obligators to mine it then there will be skaa involved. He didn't manage to hide the Atium completely, he just redirected it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aminar Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Since Nicrosil can be filled with investiture from other types of metalminds, he wouldn't necessarily need to compound it directly. That would mean only needing a small amount of Nicrosil. That isn't specifically canon... The RPG is great but rarely makes for complete evidence. Until it's seen in the books we cannot know. That is a very good point though in the sense that if the RPG is right he could have compounded something less useful and poured that power into Nicrosil minds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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