Roamer Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Hi everyone, I lurk here quite a bit, but wanted to post some of my thoughts as I am re-reading WoK and get some input. As I was reading I was struck with the possibility that there is something more going on in the ardentia than meets the eye. I don't have any hard evidence, but there is some circumstantial evidence that I thought would be worth mentioning. First of all is the connection between the teachings of the ardents and the goals of Taravangian. When Dalinar and Adolin are talking in the King's map room, Adolin quotes some vorin scripture to him that claims mortality is basically chaos and that the only peace/order available is to be found in the tranquiline halls. I know it's a stretch, but I thought it odd that Taravangian is so intent on maintaining the world in a state of chaos, a state that arguably fits with the worldview of the ardentia better than any other group we've been introduced to so far. What if the people discovered that certain tenants of vorinism were wrong? How would that affect the ardentia? Are there some within the ranks that might be willing to go to extraordinary lenghts to prevent a reveal of false vorin teachings from happening? Second is Kabsal. When I originally read the book I assumed that he was merely a ghostblood agent that had infiltrated the ardentia, but I'm starting to wonder if the ghostbloods might actually be an extremist faction within the ardentia itself. First of all, if the ghostbloods wanted Jasnah dead, why send someone from a group that she is hostile toward? An ardent would have a difficult time getting close to Jasnah and we see in the book he is only able to do so through his relationship with Shallan. Seems like an odd choice for an assassin. That leads me to believe that he really is an ardent. Kabsal is also apparently a zealous believer in vorinism. He seems genuinely offended when Jasnah asks him about Urithiru, so I don't believe he is faking his religious belief. Sure, it may be an act to convince Jasnah, but to me he seems genuine in his religious belief. The third trigger that had me considering an ardent faction as a possible candidate for ghostblood/Taravangian involvement came when I was reading the exchange between Adolin and his father's ardent in the temple. Who could spy more easily than ardents? They are privy to details of people's lives that most others are not, and as religious leaders are given a level of trust and respect that would be difficult to obtain otherwise. Furthermore, ardents are in every city in every kingdom, so they have the ability to set up an extensive communications network that would fly under the radar. I'm not saying the entire ardentia is involved, but might there be an extremist faction that is working to establish the Hierocracy again or maybe just protect against what they see as a threat to vorinism? Edited July 17, 2012 by Roamer 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 I very strongly suspect that the Ghostbloods are the remnant of the old, pre-Sunmaker ardentia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethling Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Some sort of plotting inside the Ardentia probably is not too far off the mark. They do have a history of having done serious plotting in the past. Sanderson didn't need to include that tidbit, so it will probably turn out to be of some consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamer Posted July 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Some sort of plotting inside the Ardentia probably is not too far off the mark. They do have a history of having done serious plotting in the past. Sanderson didn't need to include that tidbit, so it will probably turn out to be of some consequence. I agree. Physical submission under threat of violence does not often correlate to intellectual or spiritual submission. I imagine that there remained enough bitterness and hostility in the ardentia to keep many ideas of the hierocracy alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortaan Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Interesting idea. Smacks a little bit of obligator intrigue, which makes me question if Brandon would do it again. Then again, the ardentia are mentioned too much to not be up to something. However, we can assume the Ghostbloods are more interested in Jasnah because of her current research... which begs the question of how they know what it entails, and WHY they are interested in it. Killing Jasnah to hide her research, at this point in the game, seems like it would ensure that it gets out. So why kill Jasnah at all, unless she's close to figuring out something the ardentia don't want her to know? Maybe the ardentia know something about how the Voidbringers became parshmen. Maybe they are actually responsible for it. Actually now that I mention it, it seems like the only group to have continuous records from the last Epoch would be either the Knights Radiant... or Vorinism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roamer Posted July 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) I found another hint while finishing the book again. Sorry that I don't have the exact quotes, but I drive a lot and have been listening to the audio book. The audible app is a pain to use when trying to find a specific quote, so again, sorry. You remember when Dalinar is at the King's feast and we see another high prince use his ardent to manipulate a merchant into signing a contract quickly? Dalinar has an exchange with this ardent and then reflects on the fact that even though the ardentia is theoretically supposed to stay out of politics, that they are becoming more influential at court. Just another hint that the ardentia have more going on than meets the eye. The ardents that would want to be involved in court politics would be the ones that still cling to old vorinism like Kabsal. Ardents who are angry that they were scourged and believe that religious rule would be better for mankind than what they currently have. Edited July 25, 2012 by Roamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 I agree with Roamer that the Ghostbloods could be associated with the ardentia. Obviously, some of them are not ardents, as we see from Shallan's family's inclusion. This thread also has some relevent discussion. I take the liberty of requoting below. To me, the money quote about Kabsal's motivation is in chapter 45, talking to Shallan about Jasnah: "She's trying to prove that the Voidbringers weren't real. ... a fabrication of the Radiants. ... that the devotaries - and Vorinism - are a gigantic fraud. ... Haven't we been scourged enough?" Kabsal said, eyes angry. " ... Yet this is real. It's all real, and they ignore us and -"He cut off suddenly, glancing at her, lips tight, jaw clenched. She'd never seen such fervor, such fury from the pleasant ardent. She wouldn't have thought him capable of it. "I'm sorry," he said, ... Not a great thing for a would-be assassin to say while trying to sneak into position. Dalinar's visions are available to others (one of the death quotes mentions someone else who had been having similar visions). They could have been the motivation for the Hierocracy takeover in the first place. They could be motivating the Ghostbloods now. On the other hand, I think Kabsal may not have been a fan of the Radiants. The "broadcasting" of the message to "Unite ..." by Honor has the potential to set up serious contention among those who receive it. When the Sunmaker remade Vorinism, the Ghostbloods could have been a resistant group. They could be still trying to unite the world. The Ghostbloods seem to be rolling in priceless Soulcasters, Shardplate and Shardblades. The Hierocracy would have been in a position to hide some of the missing items before the Sunmaker took them over. I doubt that the Ghostbloods and Taravangian are the same organization. Taravangian is clearly studying Jasnah, but I think he still sees her as a potential tool, not an imminent threat. The Ghostbloods seem to be trying to kill her. Taravangian's faction also seems to be much more effective than the Ghostbloods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Looking at all this, I have to agree that (part of) the Ardentia is up to something. It does seem extremely likely that Kabsal is sincere in his religious beliefs, and wasn't actually faking being an Ardent. Human nature and the abuse of religion make a "break-away" sect that never really abandoned the Heirarchy seem very likely, and given Kabsal's attitudes, he seems a prime candidate to be associated with it. It's entirely possible that the Ardentia is either the driving force behind the Ghostbloods, or they have found a sympathetic audience/ally in the old-school Ardentia. The relationship to Taragavinian is weak, but not impossible. The trouble with untangling this is that politics makes strange bedfellows, as history shows very clearly. Groups who disagree on important points and might even be at war in other circumstances will sometimes join forces (usually temporarily) if they see a common threat to their interests. I'm not going to cite real-world examples; I'm sure you can all come up with a few yourselves. All this means is that "acting together" does not mean "Same goals." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Human nature and the abuse of religion make a "break-away" sect that never really abandoned the Heirarchy seem very likely, and given Kabsal's attitudes, he seems a prime candidate to be associated with it. Just a note, that wouldn't be a "break-away sect". Instead, the modern ardentia would be the sect and the breakers away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenshu Ani Posted July 26, 2012 Report Share Posted July 26, 2012 I found another hint while finishing the book again. Sorry that I don't have the exact quotes, but I drive a lot and have been listening to the audio book. The audible app is a pain to use when trying to find a specific quote, so again, sorry. You remember when Dalinar is at the King's feast and we see another high prince use his ardent to manipulate a merchant into signing a contract quickly? Dalinar has an exchange with this ardent and then reflects on the fact that even though the ardentia is theoretically supposed to stay out of politics, that they are becoming more influential at court. Just another hint that the ardentia have more going on than meets the eye. The ardents that would want to be involved in court politics would be the ones that still cling to old vorinism like Kabsal. Ardents who are angry that they were scourged and believe that religious rule would be better for mankind than what they currently have. In that same chapter, Gibletish, there was another interesting section. When Dalinar was speaking to the ardent that had manipulated the merchant, the ardent said: “Just as Hatham wishes his partner in negotiations to know of his goodwill, I wish you to know of our goodwill toward you, Brightlord.”Dalinar frowned. He’d never had much to do with the ardents— his devotary was simple and straightforward. Dalinar got his fill of politics with the court; he had little desire to find more in religion. “Why? What should it matter if I have goodwill toward you?” The ardent smiled. “We will speak with you again.” He bowed low and withdrew. Ghostblood? Something is definitely up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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