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The Shaod = Snapping = Giving Breath = Acting with Honor


ROSHtafARian

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Apologies if this seems obvious to anyone else, but I didn't see a topic on it, so follow my musings, if you will.

There was a lot of confusion about how Allomancy related to Preservation until it was confirmed that the shape and form of the magic didn't have to obviously be of Preservation....but rather the Intent behind its use must follow the Shard it's derived from. Snapping is what turns someone from a person who merely has the spiritual DNA needed to use Allomancy into an actual Allomancer. And Snapping of course, only happens with the intent of preserving one's life from harm.

Hemalurgy, by contrast, doesn't require any particular spiritweb on the part of the person utilizing it. It merely requires a person to act with the Intent to Ruin, in pursuit of entropy...taking from one and used by another, to a law of diminishing returns. Whereas Feruchemy acted in the spirit of Harmony, even before Harmony was an actual thing. It was always about the balance between Preservation and Ruin, and required BOTH Intents to access. Initial Entropy, taking or storing of an attribute, Ruining one's current health or awareness or age, for the purpose of Preservation at a later date.

Now look at Awakeners on Nalthis. One of the key, but oft-overlooked aspects of Awakening is that Breath CAN NOT BE TAKEN BY FORCE. Use of magic on Nalthis begins with intent....an Awakener must be Endowed with Breath. Either their initial, single Breath, granted everyone by Endowment, or by a Breath voluntarily gifted on them by another person. Before the fuel, focus and form of the magic come into play, it has to originate with Intent.

This then explains the Shaod. Look at Raoden, pre-Elantris. A loyal son and prince, Devoted to his family and nation, to learning and education....the Shaod acts as Snapping does. It takes those whose Intent aligns most with Devotion, and transforms them into beings capable of best utilizing the magic of Devotion....for the benefit and good of those people and causes they are devoted to. Whereas Skai's magic is accessed through Dominion...over oneself, or forceful subjugation of others.

Which finally brings us to Surgebinders on Roshar. Before all else happens, Surgebinders it seems must act with Honor. Even without the Oaths of the Knights Radiant, Shallan, Kaladin and even Szeth in his own way are all acting according to their personal codes of Honor, in pursuit of higher ideals, and this is what renders them capable of Surgebinding in the first place.

Which I also believe to be an argument in favor of Surgebinding being purely of Honor, with Cultivation unrelated and having her own magic system. And Voidbinding purely of Odium. If there are balance magics between Honor, Cultivation and Odium, we haven't seen them yet, I don't think.

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Very thoughtful. With respect to the Stormlight Archive I mostly sort of agree. I recommend Zas' Spren Hypothesis thread for a more thorough discussion of spren and surgebinding.

There is this quote from Nohadon:

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.”

Briefly, one implication is that honorspren are a subset of Nahel bond spren. Another is that surgebinders need not act with honor (at least pre-Nohadon, this brilliant theory suggests that it may have changed, although I'm not convinced)

There has also been some discussion about whether:

  1. all Radiants work with honorspren;
  2. some radiants work with honorspren and others (Shallan, for example), work with other kinds of spren or;
  3. there are multiple subtypes of honorspren.

A surgebinder presumably needs a Nahel bond spren, but it need not be an honorspren nor would they be a Radiant unless they adopted the oaths.

The theory I am currently leaning toward is that there are 10 kinds of Nahel Bond spren, one of which is the honorspren. Surgebinders can have a bond with any of these. If they adopt the oaths, they become Radiants and become much more powerful. The ten orders of Radiants are defined by the behavior that attracts the spren and the type of spren attracted (which should match).

We also have WOB that Szeth is getting his windrunner abilities from somewhere else (I guess that it comes from using Jezrien's Honorblade, but it's just an idea). This leaves the following known surgebinders:

Kaladin: honorspren

Jasnah: ? spren

Szeth: not using the Nahel Bond to get his powers, so maybe not really a surgebinder

Shallan: Symbolhead/truthspren

Dalinar (speculated, but not proven): ? spren

Alakavish: not honorspren

It will be very interesting to see what Shallan draws if and when she draws Syl.

Anyway, I would argue that Honor is responsible for the honorspren and maybe some others of the Nahel Bond spren, but maybe not all of the Nahel Bond spren. The Radiant Oath increase in power definitely seems to be an honor thing.

Apologies for the length, hope this helps.

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I agree completely! I wrote a long theory quite a while on the subject called the Principle of Intent, which is pretty much this. I've always thought Breath can't be taken due to the direct nature of Endowment, too.

I feel the consensus on the site leans to Surgebinding being Honor's magic system. The oaths and bonds scream too much like Honor for it to not.

EDIT: The Principle of Intent topic, though, very much needs to be rewritten. It's too long and rambly. It was posted a long, long time ago... Sorry about that. But it was in that topic where I happened to hypothesize how Allomancy is of Preservation, and it turned out to be right.

Edited by Chaos
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I knew I'd seen the Preservation Intent/Allomancy around somewhere, but couldn't find it.

Anyway, in keeping with this, I personally feel pretty confident that Odium is intended to be Honor's polar counterpart, like the Ruin/Preservation pair. One definition of Odium is dishonor, after all, and I think Voidbinding is Odium's magic system, a mirror of Surgebinding rather than a corruption of it. If you only access Surgebinding by acting honorably, it makes sense that you'd access Voidbinding by acting dishonorably. With the references to the Ten Fools, etc, Occam's Razor would seem to indicate that it'll match Surgebinding more often than it differs.

Which brings us to an interesting idea that I haven't yet seen anyone else talking about....Brandon generally likes his threats to have a human component rather than being purely alien, so while the Parshendi may have a role to play as Voidbringers, I suspect the Ten Fools are as human as the Ten Heralds are. And while we've speculated a lot on which characters might end up becoming Knights Radiant along with Kaladin and Dalinar.....I wonder which, if any, might end up becoming Voidbinders to counter them?

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Anyway, in keeping with this, I personally feel pretty confident that Odium is intended to be Honor's polar counterpart, like the Ruin/Preservation pair.

You have to factor Cultivation into this equation, though. If Odium and Honor balance each other out, what does Cultivation's presence do?

Honestly, I saw very little honor with Shallan. Don't get me wrong, she's a good girl and all, but honor isn't a motivation for her, as it is for Dalinar and Kaladin. She's attracted to her studies; science, art. Culture, you might say. Jasnah is the same way.

If Odium is "the most terrible of all the sixteen," then it would make sense that Honor and Cultivation would throw their lots in together against him. I think the different kinds of Surgebinding come from different combinations of the two.

But aside from that, I do agree with the Intent thing. If the magic systems didn't have anything to do with Intents, then there would be no reason to have Intents in there at all.

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You have to factor Cultivation into this equation, though. If Odium and Honor balance each other out, what does Cultivation's presence do?

Honestly, I saw very little honor with Shallan. Don't get me wrong, she's a good girl and all, but honor isn't a motivation for her, as it is for Dalinar and Kaladin. She's attracted to her studies; science, art. Culture, you might say. Jasnah is the same way.

If Odium is "the most terrible of all the sixteen," then it would make sense that Honor and Cultivation would throw their lots in together against him. I think the different kinds of Surgebinding come from different combinations of the two.

But aside from that, I do agree with the Intent thing. If the magic systems didn't have anything to do with Intents, then there would be no reason to have Intents in there at all.

Also, the 10-16 theorem indicates that Honor and Odium are non-complementary.

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I really don't think Surgebinding is some Cultivation Honor mix. I don't even think they can "throw their lots in together". If you check my sig, it has a link to my Shard-Complements Theory, which describes why Honor and Cultivation wouldn't be able to form a balance magic. But it's all my opinion there. If you don't want to bother, or if you've already read it, I'll just say that it is my belief that Honor and Cultivation aren't complements, and so balance magic would be impossible. I think it explains nicely why there aren't 7 magic systems going on. Honor, Cutivation, and Odium are all non-complementary so they only have their own systems. It makes things neater in my opinion.

Hard facts though also point to the idea that Surgebinding is Honor's magic. Brandon has said that the Shard's intent is how you access a magic system. With Surgebinding, it is accessed through speaking Oaths promising to do honorable things. In my opinion, spren are initially drawn to someone's defining characteristics, but will not form a stronger bond until that person starts acting in accordance with your characteristics. Shallan said she had never told a lie, until the events of the books, so it seems that truth was pretty important to her. It's also possible that spren come when you have trouble and doubts following your defining characteristics, and soldier on is what strengthens the bond. This is all speculation though. However, what has gained Shallan this spren, which I assume is tied to her Surgebinding abilities, is telling the truth. In my opinion, telling the truth is an honorable trait, thus Shallan has acted in accordance with Honor, has received Surgebinding as a result, so it seems to me that Surgebinding is just of Honor, no need for Cultivation to be involved at all. It makes sense logically to me, but everyone is free to have their own opinion.

On Honor as Odiums opposite. I'm pretty certain that Brandon has said that Ruin and Preservation are unique in being perfect opposites. I know that one definition of Odium is dishonor, but another is hatred, and that's how I prefer to think of it. It's just a matter of interpretation. My prediction is that Honor and Odium will end up not being opposites, or even complements. This is because, according to my other beliefs, this would form a balance magic, which doesn't fit at all with Brandon's statement of 30 small or 3 big magic systems. I think it's simpler and more elegant with each Shard having their own big magic system that can then be subdivided into ten distinct powers, making 30.

About Cultivation's magic. I have two ideas there. One is that the people in Shinovar use it. It's one of the best places for farming, or "Cultivation" in the world, and farmers are treated like holy men. If they had access to a magic power, that would surely increase the people's reverence of them. A problem with this is that Shinovar isn't the only place people can farm. Why haven't other farmers discovered this system? It could be extremely complex though.

My other idea is different, though it could fit with the farmers having magic. It seems that every race on Roshar has some odd characteristics. Golden hair of the people of Iri, the strange shadow and shape-shifting abilities of Aiman, and the weird Thaylenth eyebrows. This could be a way to add color to the world, but it could also be related to magic. Perhaps each nation was given a kind of magic by Cultivation, tied to their strange characteristics. We know that the hair color being bred true isn't even possible, it could be tied to sDNA. The powers aren't obvios but perhaps these attributes Cultivate them somehow? It's a weak connection but whatever the racial magic of the Shin is, could be the reason farmers are revered. This is kind of a shot in the dark though.

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Well first, as to the 10-16 theorem, that's just a theory, so we can't use it to definitively prove Odium and Honor aren't complementary.

And as for Brandon's quote, I think I know what you're talking about Windrunner, and if I'm recalling the quote correctly, all Brandon said was that even when Shards come in pairs, they're not always complete opposites like Ruin and Preservation were. I don't think he's ever specifically stated that Ruin and Preservation were completely unique as far as Shard pairs went.

Mostly, for me, it comes down to his word choice for Odium. We know he puts a lot of thought into what he names the Shards, and from the whole Devotion thing we know that even once he has the basic idea of an Intent, he still goes through all possible synonyms looking for the BEST fit. So why Odium, if the intent is really Hatred or Destruction or Desolation? Out of all the Shards so far, Odium's the only name that made people go huh? and have to stop to look it up in some cases. Brandon doesn't use obscure words for the sake of being obscure...if he picked Odium as a Shard name, there had to be some reason that particular word fit the Shard's intent better than Hatred or Shame, things that definitely fall under its purview as well.

According to the Merriam-Webster definition, Odium is:

: the state or fact of being subjected to hatred and contempt as a result of a despicable act or blameworthy circumstance

: hatred and condemnation accompanied by loathing or contempt

: disrepute or infamy attached to something

In addition, in every dictionary or thesaurus I've come across, honor is always listed as an antonym of odium. It doesn't get more opposite than antonyms!

The fact is, Odium is a specific word choice that doesn't actually mean that the Shard hates anything and everything, though that fits as well. Odium means a state of being hated for being dishonorable. Being loathed for acting shamefully. A figure of infamy.

Why does the Oathpact exist? Why does Honor say there's even an option of Odium choosing a champion for himself? Why not just destroy indiscriminately? BECAUSE THAT IS NOT ODIUM'S INTENT. He is not Hatred, unbound with no limitations, who exists purely for the sake of destroying everything. Indeed, utter destruction is more Ruin's purview than Odium's. Why are the apocalypses Odium brings to Roshar called Desolations, specifically? Look at what that word means.

Odium doesn't want to destroy. Odium wants to make everything JUST LIKE HIM. Odious. Infamous. Shameful. Hated and looked upon with loathing and contempt for being disgraced. He acts not to kill, but to taint and tarnish. To make one fall from grace. Look at his visit to Sel. He Splintered Aona and Skai beyond all capacity to oppose him....but he didn't just destroy them in the sense that Ati and Leras were destroyed by the end of Mistborn. Aona still had a presence in her Shardpool...because he'd rather see her desolate, lonely and powerless rather than utterly annihilated. Look at the aftermath....at how her precious Elantrians were viewed after his visit...loathed with pity and disgust when once they were silver gods. And that's why the Oathpact. That's why he brings the Desolations against Roshar time after time, allowing the Heralds chance to resist when he seems to be an overwhelming force with a clear superior strength. Honor was dead. He could have destroyed Roshar at any time, I believe. He didn't, because his Intent didn't allow it. He had to play by the rules he and Honor set up, because annihilation was never his goal....getting Honor's Heralds to shame themselves, to abandon their Oath, to betray Honor....and to make the Knights Radiant and all of humanity follow in their footsteps...THAT was his intent all along.

And that's why I believe he's Honor's polar opposite. Yes, it may turn out they aren't polar opposites or he has a true counterpart elsewhere in the cosmere, but as of now, the only opposition to the Odium and Honor are opposites theory is that it would disprove other theories, like the 10-16 theorem or the balance magics. His name alone, in combination with his actions so far, give plenty of support for the idea that they are counterparts however.

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Ok, I’m going to preface with a couple things. One is that I would appreciate if you didn’t interject suddenly with capitals. That’s seen as online shouting, and is typically considered fairly rude. I can’t tell you what to do, but I think it will be easier for us to have a civil conversation, if you don’t scream your points at me. Another is that, while you are correct in saying that Reader and I cannot definitively prove anything with our theories, they are an acceptable reason for us to believe the way we do. I would also like to point out that your belief in what definition of Odium Brandon is using, isn’t any better proof then our theories are. I wasn't trying to use my theory to destroy your's I was trying to explain my way of thinking to see if you ended up agreeing with me.

Alright now that that’s out of the way I’ll get back on topic. You say that Odium is a highly obscure word, which Brandon chose for a purpose? I would counter with that it’s not that unusual of a word, certainly not more so than Dominion. I personally knew what Odium meant when I read TWoK, as a matter of fact it tipped me off to the cosmere because it seemed odd to name a god after a feeling. Although I will concede that I misremembered the quote, there is no mention of unique in it, so you had me there.

Why does the Oathpact exist? Why does Honor say there's even an option of Odium choosing a champion for himself?

He says that Odium is bound by the same rules as all Shards, and may be required to choose a Champion. As for the Oathpact, it binds Odium, stopping him from directly attacking Roshar with his power. I see it as a massive chess game, if Odium wins, he can destroy.

He Splintered Aona and Skai beyond all capacity to oppose him....but he didn't just destroy them in the sense that Ati and Leras were destroyed by the end of Mistborn. Aona still had a presence in her Shardpool...because he'd rather see her desolate, lonely and powerless rather than utterly annihilated. Look at the aftermath....at how her precious Elantrians were viewed after his visit...loathed with pity and disgust when once they were silver gods.

Aona is dead, the TWoK epigraphs say so. If you believe her to be watching from the beyond then again that is your own belief, not a point you can use to prove something. I personally think Raoden feels the effect of the Shard’s intent, it’s Devotion to its people rather than a consciousness, but that is also just my opinion. We can’t use this as evidence either way. However Odium did not destroy the Elantrians, the Reod did, which he was uninvolved with. It happened centuries after his departure.

And that's why the Oathpact. That's why he brings the Desolations against Roshar time after time, allowing the Heralds chance to resist when he seems to be an overwhelming force with a clear superior strength. Honor was dead. He could have destroyed Roshar at any time, I believe. He didn't, because his Intent didn't allow it. He had to play by the rules he and Honor set up, because annihilation was never his goal....getting Honor's Heralds to shame themselves, to abandon their Oath, to betray Honor....and to make the Knights Radiant and all of humanity follow in their footsteps...THAT was his intent all along.

Honor lived until the Herald’s broke the Oathpact. They broke the rules of their chess game, and Odium no longer found himself bound. Here’s a quote to at least prove Odium wasn’t toying with them, Honor opposed him until the Heralds quit.

QUESTION

Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing.

Source

His name alone, in combination with his actions so far, give plenty of support for the idea that they are counterparts however.

Well if you want to use his name as evidence here’s the an alternate definition that I have found

Odium
  1. intense hatred or dislike, especially toward a person or thing regarded as contemptible,
  2. the reproach, discredit, or opprobrium attaching to something hated or repugnant
  3. the state or quality of being hated.

No mention of dishonor here. And if you really want to dig into its meaning Od- comes from Latin meaning to hate. It really depends on what definition you chose to believe Brandon means.

I hope none of this comes across as harsh or rude, I really do love debating the finer points of the cosmere with people, and you seem to have some really interesting and unique ideas. Just out of curiosity, what did you think of my speculation on Cultivation’s magic system? Do you have other beliefs of your own?

Edited by Windrunner
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Odd, my college dictionary and dictionary.com both have Love as an antonym for Odium. Love is a direct synonym for Devotion, a shard that has already been mentioned. Honor and Odium may affect each other tangentially, but I will not believe they are polar opposites until/unless Brandon specifically states they are. Modern defintions actually specify that Devotion is Odium's direct opposite.

Also, I do not think you can equally compare snapping and shaod victims with breathtakers or people acting honorably. There is just a major difference between snapping and being able to take breaths. I might equate returning with snapping and Shaod though, but that would not explain the non-returned people that could take breaths.

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I would like to point out that it has never been said that two shards have to be a pair to make a magic system together. Ruin and Preservation, Devotion and Dominion are all paired and share a shardworld; but Endowment is alone on Nalthis.

Cultivation and Honor are not required to make a balanced system or be paired to share a magic system. A shared system may even be a natural reaction to two shards occupying a shardworld; I remember Brandon saying something about how magic systems are a kind of natural reaction to a shard's power.

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I would like to point out that it has never been said that two shards have to be a pair to make a magic system together. Ruin and Preservation, Devotion and Dominion are all paired and share a shardworld; but Endowment is alone on Nalthis.

Cultivation and Honor are not required to make a balanced system or be paired to share a magic system. A shared system may even be a natural reaction to two shards occupying a shardworld; I remember Brandon saying something about how magic systems are a kind of natural reaction to a shard's power.

Sure, but there's only evidence for three main magic systems on Roshar (both from the book and Brandon's comments). If there were combination magics, there would 6 to 7.

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Sure, but there's only evidence for three main magic systems on Roshar (both from the book and Brandon's comments). If there were combination magics, there would 6 to 7.

If I'm right about individual and shared systems being formed naturally, the Shard has to be able to stop the process if they choose.

If Odium is the third shard, he might deliberatly be preventing the process that makes a shared system. Or Honor or Cultivation may have decided to disable their own system in favor on combining their efforts.

Anything is possible, and I still support that surgebinding has elements of both Honor and Cultivation.

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Here's my thoughts on this (before I get too far into it I want to say I agree Surgebinding is one of Honor's magic systems, but I think there's something else going on as well):

I really think it's a mistake to look at Cultivation as a farming thing only. I really think it should be taken more abstractly. To "cultivate" is literally defined as making something better. One cultivates a seed to grow by watering it and making sure it's placed in the sun, one cultivates an appreciation of art by providing access to museums, etc., one cultivates athletic prowess by training, running, lifting and practicing, etc.

Using Stormlight and speaking the Oaths only made Kaladin better at what he already knew how to do. It didn't increase his skill, it increased his speed, agility and endurance...it made his innate abilities better. No specific skills were granted. Using Stormlight makes you better, Surgebinding is a specific skill already granted, it seems, fueled through Stormlight though.

Kaladin goes Super Kaladin after saying the Oaths, but the Stormlight is the fuel, which he's been using all along anyway. It just wasn't as powerful. He also was Surgebinding before the Oaths. All the Oaths did was make him better. Perhaps Honor made a contract with Cultivation to power up his magic system after his folks speak what he wants to hear...really I have no idea what it might have been, but I really think Cultivation is more involved than she's been given credit for.

I honestly don't know the answer to what Shards power what magic systems on Roshar, but I think Cultivation is much more involved than what we're theorizing. This is based on some shaky evidence, but it seems right to me.

Oh, and Chaos...didn't Brandon say there would be around 30 magic systems on Roshar? I'm not sure exactly where I saw that or if I'm remembering that correctly. I searched to no avail.

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^

We assumed that by thirty magic systems, he meant that there would be ten under each of the Three Shards on Roshar (although we haven't even proven there are three), each one a 'Surge', which could be described as a 'magic system'. This was supported by the fact we know there is Ten Surges, so we assume there will be Ten 'Voids' and another Ten under Cultivation/Other Shard.

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Look at the aftermath....at how her precious Elantrians were viewed after his visit...loathed with pity and disgust when once they were silver gods.

So I have a couple of things in response to this.

1. What do you mean as "silver gods?"

And 2. I'm pretty sure that Brandon Sanderson said that before Odium arrived on Sel, there were no Seons. And because everything we can see in Elantris seems that Seons have been around for a very, very long time, this seems like Odium arrived a long time ago on Sel. You might be thinking that the Reod was caused by Odium, but I'm pretty sure that there is a quote saying otherwise.

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I honestly don't know the answer to what Shards power what magic systems on Roshar, but I think Cultivation is much more involved than what we're theorizing. This is based on some shaky evidence, but it seems right to me.

Droz, I agree with you completely. The spren aren't just of Honor, they are of Cultivation as well, to varying degrees. Some are more of Honor (such as Syl) while others are more of Cultivation.

Oh, and Chaos Zas...didn't Brandon say there would be around 30 magic systems on Roshar? I'm not sure exactly where I saw that or if I'm remembering that correctly. I searched to no avail.

Fixed it for you. ;)

Brandon said that it depended on how you counted. If you counted one way there was like 30, and if you counted another, it was more like 10. Here's the quote:

BENFOLEY

You have stated in

your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemurology) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. <snip>

BRANDON SANDERSON

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

<snip>

Let's just say that The Wheel of Time has a smaller number of larger magic systems, and I tend to use a larger number of smaller magic systems. Confusing enough? ;)

Source

This quote is also where we get the (mostly) unmentioned Travel Surge.

EDIT-An example of where it's more like 10 than 30 is Jasnah and Shallan. They are from different orders, so they both Soulcast a little differently. But they both end up doing the same thing- changing elements.

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I would say that there are ten surges natural to the world.

but each shard uses them slightly differently. in the sameway that the are sixteen metals on Scadrial, but each shard uses it in a different way.

for example, honours use of transformation would be soulcasting, while devotions use of transformation may be making someone lose all memory of their wife [its a stretch, but we don't know all of the surges,, so I had to improvise a bit].

though I wonder if ferro is just an anomoly or we'll be seeing combos of magic sysstems

Edited by master
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