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Theory: Stormlight Vessels in Surgebinding


Odium's_Shard

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Ok, this theory is about vessels of Stormlight during Surgebinding and why it matters.

Thanks to: Telcontar, Goradel's Nephew, ReaderAt2046

Firstly, my ideas about the entire 'Gem determines Effect' theory Telcontar and Goradel's Nephew were running (in which they were suggesting that a gem determines the effect in Windrunning too, and that a sapphire would be needed for Kaladin to Surgebind) , before Reader's helpful interjection (that pointed out that Kaladin uses a diverse range of different gems to Surgebind).

As Reader pointed out, it doesn't seem to matter what Gem you use so long as it is filled with Stormlight. This leads me to believe that Brandon, when making Shallan use a Garnet to produce Blood in her first Soulcasting scene, may just be setting up false 'Chekhov's guns'. It has been known. Look up the definition if you aren't familiar with the technique (which as a writer, I am, and take for granted that other people should...). But onto my theory about the use of Stormlight in a gem:

Kaladin is said to 'infuse' himself with the Stormlight from a gem by 'inhaling' (may be something to do with Body Focus or Order 1, Inhalation). Here, it seems any vessel can be used for the Gem -> Kaladin-infused-with-Stormlight stage. Here's where it gets sort of complicated (for me to explain, I'd hope you understand).

Kaladin is the vessel used in the particular sort of Surgebinding in which he engages (presumably 'windrunning').

That's right. Not the gem. The gem, in this instance, is not used up or damaged, for it is in no way participating in the Binding. Just Kaladin. So, Kaladin, being filled with Stormlight, now uses it in order to facilitate a certain Binding (Lashing) of his choice. He then takes the damage we see the gems Jasnah use get (presumably because of the cold placed on them when used immediately [see below]), feeling the cold. It sounded like the same process as gem -> Kaladin in that he 'infuses' other people/objects. However, it is at this instance that I shall (perhaps not without precedence) say that he then 'bends' the Light to perform the tasks, and his sDNA codes for in which ways he is able to bend it using the stages laid out in the 'Three Parts of Magic' (Realmatic theory of Binding).

Firstly, Nahel Bond with spren:

Physical deed -> Cognitive change (personality) -> Spiritual recognition (assuming spren are spiritual beings)

Spiritual spren/altering of sDNA of host -> Cognitive gain of sentience by spren -> Physical link (appearance of spren? Following of spren?)

Secondly, access to Stormlight:

Physical inhalation from source -> Cognitive draw (inner inhalation, if you will) -> Spiritual movement of Stormlight (assuming Stormlight is a spiritual fuel) -> Cognitive exhalation -> Physical exhalation

(this sequence uses both inhalation and exhalation: inhalation is the drawing in of Stormlight, exhalation is letting it go naturally (Kaladin says breathing releases Stormlight faster) but also through things like pores in your skin))

Lastly, Binding (after Stormlight infused):

Physical touch -> Cognitive will of movement -> Spiritual sDNA check (check of Nahel bond?)

Spiritual movement of Stormlight -> Cognitive bending of the Light (thought of which power to use) -> Physical ramification (people stuck to the ceiling, etc)

What's most important here is that Kaladin is the vessel (as would any other KR Windrunners, presumably).

However, in Shallan and Jasnah's case, at no point do they inhale Stormlight, nor glow all over (this would give them away terribly, though). I believe this is because the vessel used in this instance (at the point of the Binding) is in fact still the gem. This explains the entire theory about gem -> Essence made relationship in Soulcasting, while Kaladin has no trouble using other gems. The Stormlight needs as vessel in order to be used for Bindings. This is pretty obvious throughout all Bindings. However, it is at no point specified what the vessel needs to be. In this case I take Telcontar's point that this is why gems are necessary for Bindings, because they are (as well as appropriately Bonded Surgebinders) one of the few vessels that can take up Stormlight, and at any rate, Highstorms aren't the safest places for more fragile vessels like humans. We tend to break easily.

And so, in accordance with my 'bend the Light' -> produce a Binding/Effect theory, in the case of say Shallan, it was the gem she used as the vessel that determined the particular Effect produced. Because the vessel bends the Light akin to a prism splitting Stormlight. However, a Human vessel has access to as many functions as his sDNA and thus Nahel bond allows, the gem only has access to one of the Essences (and perhaps in other Bindings, one of the Bindings, as we are unsure whether all Surges apart from Transformation require Inhalation of Stormlight [because the Body Focus of KR order 1 is Inhalation]).

So a Transformation would go like this:

Physical touch (lets ignore Jasnah for now) -> Cognitive Truth/Giving (as Shallan gives a truth) -> Spiritual check of sDNA/Nahel (and permission given by Truthspren?) -> Cognitive Shadesmar (as in the entire transportation, talking to object, freeing it, all the necessary jobs) -> Physical rendition (goblet -> blood)

This theory (probably not entirely original, its most likely already been suggested, what with the collaboration of devious minds that feed upon this forum) shalt now been dubbed, in truly flowery fashion, as 'The Realmatic Distortion of Stormlight through appropriate Vessels in Surgebinding and other Rosharian magicks'.

Notes:

Theory aka TRDSVSR

'Rosharian' is now completely owned and copyrighted by me unless anyone can otherwise prove that the term has previously been used.

The only counter argument (to my knowledge, at least) that I can perceive to my theory (please find any others) is that the body (in my Realmatic portrait of the inhalation of Stormlight) seems to accept the inhalation of Stormlight before the Spiritual Realm has even checked to see whether it is possible that you can, and, unless these processes are instantaneous, would lead to a rather awkward moment in your chull-training career.

I hope this post was very clear. If you don't understand, tell me, if you don't agree, tell me, if you have a differing opinion for which you have proof, most certainly tell me, and if you do like it, don't keep it to yourself!

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just one thought. I'll eventually respond in a more constructive way later.

Cold seems to be an indication of Stormlight actually being used (not only transferred).

When Szeth puts much Stormlight in something the object gets cold. Kaladin puts his Stormlight into the shield to draw arrows to it. It gets cold. Dalinar is being healed by that Regrowth-woman, he feels cold.

Then we have Shallan.

She felt suddenly cold, as if the warmth were being drawn from her. She screamed as the bead in her fingers flared to sudden warmth.

Of course she gives the Stormlight to the cognitive aspect of the goblet. But does the Stormlight pass through her? And if yes: Would that make her a vessel or would she simply let it pass through her as a means of transfer.

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It is Stormlight passing through her Spiritual sDNA gate. Verification of her Soulcasting abilities. I didn't include that in the main post, thanks for helping my reasoning! The gems break eventually because they are subjected to reduced temperature, which causes them to crack.

In this instance I feel she is simply verified, not used (because while she feels cold, she doesn't glow or show signs of holding Stormlight).

Edited by Odium's_Shard
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It's nice, and settles the gem debate, but what about spren? I always thought that spren were the cognitive aspects of objects made manifest because the known world is regularly doused in stormlight, and honorspren were spren that shift gears to be bound to honor's power instead of cultivation like other spren.

How would the switch work in your 'vessles' theory?

Edited by Goradel's Nephew
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Spren appear when there is change within an object/medium. Flamespren/firespren appear when a fire sparks or dims, however when another's Cognitive aspect is tied to their observation or notation. Deathspren crowd around dead people (change from life to without it), however don't make themselves visible to normal living people. Dead people only see them, because in the moments leading to their death (or near it, as we see in Kaladin) they seem to have access to all three Realms, Physical (as we all have), Spiritual, where spren seem to be based, and Cognitive (see an epigraph in which a dying man claims to see a 'black sun in a red sky' which is Shadesmar).

So spren must have a way of moving from the Spiritual (where they exist around people, just on a different plane of existence, so to speak) to the Physical, where peoples eyes can perceive them. Relations between the two are obviously controlled by a Cognitive aspect, and this seems to be based around change. And is limited when another Cognitive aspect interferes.

Why would change induce a Cognitive passage for spren?

Clearly it is the Cognitive presence of their Bonded that makes Nahel-spren appear to their host and gain sentience.

But something like a fire growing brighter? Fires aren't smart. However, this does make me ponder about Brandon saying that on Roshar Investiture depended on how one acts. Investiture could be explained as the Movement of power from the Spiritual to the Physical (magic) using Realmatic theory to dictate that Cognitive controls the process.

But it has been theorized that on Roshar, Nahel bonds (and thus Investiture) come from how one changes 'how they act', such as Dalinar growing more Confident as befits Order 8, Kaladin regaining his sense of Leadership, as befits Order 1. This is change. So this makes me think that change in elements is what shifts the Cognitive into drawing spren from the Spiritual to the Physical.

Change in anything causes Investiture (Investiture here being used to described the process of Physical Act -> Cognitive Aspect -> Spiritual Power -> Cognitive 'bending the light' [which is applicable to all other Cosmere magics I know of] -> Physical manifestation of power, as in accordance to which way someone Invested can and did 'bend the light'). Including spren Spiritual -> Physical.

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ok. now that I've done my first big realmatic work, I will be able to contribute to your theory. I will base my thoughts upon my understanding of Surgebinding as laid out in my "about the nature of spren"-post.

firstly, I think that once you have the spirit level required for Surgebinding, there won't be a need for another check to verify if you can actually do what you want to do. The Primary Investiture defines what you will be able to do as a Secondary Investiture.

I believe that your higher level of spirit allows you to manipulate the Power yourself. You are a tiny Shard in some way.

I found one interesting thing about Gravity-Lashings. When you perform that Binding, you are (first revoking then) imitating the spiritual link of an object/subject/yourself. In other words: you use the Stormlight (which is spirit) to manipulate a spiritual link.

Now, this could mean that every one of the Surges has a spiritual element which can be manipulated. It could mean something completely different. We'll have to RAFO in later books.

But this convinces me further that magic is manipulation of the Power, of spirit. Either by your or my defnition of Investiture. (Movement of Power from the spiritual to the physical or transfer of power from subject to subject/object)

Your theory makes sense as to why Jasnah doesn't glow. However, what you'll still need to explain is WHY Kaladin needs to become a vessel himself while Soulcasters don't. (Yeah, there sure are people who don't want to know. But I do ;) )

I don't have an explanation yet which convinces me, so I'll just give you my thoughts, maybe you can figure out a better idea.

Kaladin infuses objects directly with Stormlight, making these objects vessels themselves. As long as those vessels contain Stormlight, their spiritual Gravity-link is changed.

I think, Soulcasting may be different because one has to interact with the cognitive aspct of the object. You see, if you infuse something, you just do it, if the object's cognitive aspect wants it or not. But if you want it to change, you'd need the participation of the cognitive aspect.

So maybe the cognitive aspect needs to pick the Stormlight up itself. By going to Shadesmar you are able to interact with the cognitive aspect and you can give the Stormlight directly to it (without making yourself a vessel). Depending on the type of gem the Stormlight will interact with the cognitive aspect in some way, changing into one of the Essences.

(Also, just to prevent questions: there is no spren forming because the cognitive aspect is still bound to its object. spren only form from 'liberated' cognitive aspects.)

This still does not explain why a specific gem needs to be used in order to produce a specific Essence.

Hope this helps

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About the gem to Essence produced relationship, you might have read in the original posts about 'bending of the light'. So when the Stormlight is rent from the gem, by the participating Cognitive transferal in Shadesmar, it is 'bent' at a particular colour spectrum, as you have yourself previously suggested in the Stormlight Archive Ars Arcanum 2.0 thread.

The colour of Stormlight produce then gives the object limited options as to what it can (in accordance to its link with the spiritual; 'bent' Stormlight), does (in accordance to the Cognitive; your will for it to change into ~~~), transform into (in accordance with the Physical; produced Essence/combination).

And so the object you meet in Shadesmar is given the Stormlight, which acts almost like light energy in photons (if you understand what I mean, great, if not, this about the transferal of heat in particles; they begin to vibrate (glow in this case) with the energy), meaning that it has certain energetic potential. The colour of light limits its options, and you purposefully (using your interim Cognitive aspect within the Cognitive Realm) guide the object in the path you desire. The Power then flows from the Spiritual, through you and the object in the Cognitive, and then into the Physical ramification.

About your point about why Jasnah/Shallan don't have to become vessels even though Kaladin does. I think you pointed out that the Cognitive presence of the object in the Binding may affect the outcome, and I theorize that the Stormlight needs a certified (where the Soulcaster's sDNA comes into effect) mind to 'bend' the Light into the appropriate Bindings. And so you go to Shadesmar, talk to the Cognitive presence of the object you are Transforming, then give it the Stormlight in the gem. See above for why this links to Essence. But a Soulcaster is just certified for access to Shadesmar, and the ability to 'bribe' objects with Stormlight infused inside gems. However, after this point, the Cognitive will of the object now directs the proceedings, and so your Cognitive adaption was never needed to 'point' the Stormlight in the right direction. You tell the object what you want, 'bribe' it, and it completes the Binding itself.

Whereas, Kaladin needs to control the Stormlight into the exact power type he requires, and then into the correct victim/object. As for the process of his Surgebindings themselves, I believe that for Gravity, the Stormlight (reside in the Spiritual), transfers to and wraps around the selected person/object, and then (as long as it is present) adapts its Spiritweb to alter its connection to the planet itself, thus changing his tug to a certain direction. The more Stormlight, the stronger the alteration.

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I agree completely with Odium Shard. I wish there was a better name for the determination of the transformed object than "light".

And there is some variance. It's not just the 10 essences that you can soulcast- so your cognitive presence has more interaction in the manipulation of stormlight than pointing. It really does play a part in form the object takes, otherwise Jasnah wouldn't be able to attempt to make Strawberry Jam. The 10 essences are certainly much easier, but they aren't the only possible things.

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What I meant by 'point' the object in the right direction while giving it the Stormlight to do so. So your mind (Cognitive aspect within the Cognitive Realm) practically tells the object what it needs to become. The 'bent' Stormlight gives it the power. However, for your mind to tell the object what it wants, you must have a personal knowledge of what it is, tastes like, feels like, etc. This helps the object know exactly what it wants. 'Strawberry Jam' not 'Inedible Mush of Various Organics'.

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More ideas for you Odium. (Yeeha ;) )

I'll let you fit them in with you theory as you clearly are more into this topic.

Let's start with Navani. "The cut and type of a gemstone determines what kind of spren can be attracted to it and imprisoned in it."

Why does the type of the gemstone matter? Brandon has referred to the molecular structure before (with metals). Here it is the molecular structure of the gem that matters. Now: in Allomancy it is the molecular structure that determines how the Power is filtered through your body. So the molecular structure of a gemstone would also determine how the Power is filtered. Only that the Power is not in your body (as with Allomancy) and your Bond(or sDNA) can't determine the outlet of the Power.

Anyway, I would propose to speak from now on of the molecular structure of the gem being responsbile for different effects, because after all, the colour of the gem is determined of the molecular structure itself.

The cut of the gemstone. Clearly, for Surgebinding, the cut does not matter, one can use Stormlight captured in raw stones, spheres or cut stones.

Also I have thought about how you capture a spren in a stone. I originally thought that by cutting a stone, you would automatically have a spren inside. That's obviously wrong, like I could see after one look at Navani's notebook. So you actually capture a spren. Which is interesting because spren are not really physical and should be able to flee easily.

Then we have: Patterns of stormlight filtered through the fabrial determine the power of the gem. this seems to go in the direction of the 'bending through a prism'-idea, which I admit I brougt up myself but didn't really believe in.

Another question, not related to Navani

a gemstone should have a cognitive aspect itself. could this play a role?

I try to summarize to see if I understood what you're saying:

the cognitive aspect of the object you are going to Transform is drawing itself from the gem. At this level the Stormlight is filtered through the molecular structure of the gem, permitting only to produce certain effects. the basic effect, the Essence is the easiest product, because it is directly related to the type of gemstone. I would think that one stone has limited effects, permitting only to create stuff related to the Essence. So instead of blood you could Cast any liquid. To Cast more complex stuff, one would need diferent stones.

A human who is withdrawing Stormlight from a stone is really withdrawing the Stormlight. It is liberated during the brief moment outside the gemstone and the human. So it is not filtered anymore. That's why you'd need to filter it yourself through your thoughts.

I have a feeling that we are still missing something important though <_<

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The cut of the gemstone. Clearly, for Surgebinding, the cut does not matter, one can use Stormlight captured in raw stones, spheres or cut stones.

Also I have thought about how you capture a spren in a stone. I originally thought that by cutting a stone, you would automatically have a spren inside. That's obviously wrong, like I could see after one look at Navani's notebook. So you actually capture a spren. Which is interesting because spren are not really physical and should be able to flee easily.

Then we have: Patterns of stormlight filtered through the fabrial determine the power of the gem. this seems to go in the direction of the 'bending through a prism'-idea, which I admit I brougt up myself but didn't really believe in.

Another question, not related to Navani

a gemstone should have a cognitive aspect itself. could this play a role?

Ok, my newest theorem for spren-related objectifs, ie a fabrial-cut gem.

So, you mention that a spren should be able to flee. But all spren reside solely in the Spiritual domain until pulled through a Cognitive 'pipeline' (such as active transport in organisms, spren don't naturally diffuse over to the physical, an energy process has to pull them through). I have theorized this. Also, you mention credit for the 'bending prism light' idea. You are more than welcome to it. As are any listed contributors to any of their listed contributions.

And so: ultimately, how is it that the correct spren is trapped? Now: bending of the light. The cut and type of gem, as you mention, holds particular molecular structure and densities, which means that it bends light into different 'colors'. You then also mention the Cognitive aspect of a gem: it doesn't have a functioning (or at least in any way useful) one until it has a Spiritual aspect to match its Physical presence. This is summarized as my 'bridge' theory. And so: the Cognitive link of an artifabrian is used to pull the spren into a Physical prison within the structure of the gem. Either the artifabrian uses their mind or invokes a change process that pulls spren of certain types (the gem will only select a specific spren in accordance to its cut and type). Such as lighting a fire, etc. I am hazy on this section.

However, once the Spiritual embodiment of a spren is within the Physical equivalent of a gem, the 'Cognitive bridge' is necessary for a working relationship. At this point the Cognitive aspect of the gem filled with a spren (the fabrial) acts as a kind of Cognitive 'lever/button'. You have crafted an object that has a (forced) bond with a spren of certain giving capacity (warmth, alarm, Soulcasting etc) and has the necessary components to drive it (a Spiritual source and a Physical effector) except for an adept Cognitive aspect. It does not know how to use the power you have given it.

And so it requires the Cognitive guide of the user (instead of being on full blast all the time) in order to trigger it. The Stormlight stored within the gem, or gems on the person, then rent the Stormlight directly into the spren-gem Bond, never going through the person. However, the Cognitive presence of the user dominates that of the mini-duo and so is then able to use the entire system any way he wishes, as it isn't him actually effecting the Bond, but him activating and guiding the Bond in another (the gem).

So basically, a fabrial is a mini-Surgebinder vessel-team (spren -> gem -> Physical Realm) that a user can dominate Cognitively, due to the gems inability to think with sentience. Building a fabrial that has sentience would be kind of similar to building a self-aware robot armed with a machine gun an an intense hatred for its creators. It is because of the gems unawareness that allows the system to be controlled.

In practice, it can be compared to a machine. You press the button, the machine does the job. Stop, and the machine stops. You can't go in and do that job yourself, so you just abuse a link with one who can.

Does this make sense? Some parts are quite often declared, other parts (such as the way a user interacts with a fabrial to use it) I have never seen discussed, and is just the way my brain has interpreted it up to now.

Any suggestions? Please come in with them. If you don't, I won't.

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