Dawnshards (Spoilers)

[Munin]

I actually posted this on TWG, but it got buried and ignored, so I figured I'd run it up the flagpole over here and see what people thought.

I was just reading the Truthless thread, and LoneStar mentioned that Syl says she "binds things".

And that reminded me of something.

From Jasnah's notes in the epigraphs (emphasis mine):

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

Are the Dawnshards related to Spren in some way?

Also, does "bind" relate to Surgebinding in this context? We know that Syl enables Kaladin's abilities. Could it be that the Dawnshards let people perform even more powerful feats? Perhaps provide them with an endless supply of Stormlight?

[neverearth]

Maybe they're from the same shard?

I haven't really read through all the threads on TWG, but I've seen some posts in the Splintered threads and other threads in regards to the Almighty that speculate that the name of his shard might be something like Unity or Binding or something like that.

On another note, how is the word 'bind' meant? The context of Syl's words indicate that she holds things together. She holds people to their oaths and stuff like that. However, with the Dawnshard, I interpreted it as binding a creature to the bearer's will, or perhaps imprisoning something. While the word is the same, in my mind they have subtly different meanings.

[Munin]

On another note, how is the word 'bind' meant? The context of Syl's words indicate that she holds things together. She holds people to their oaths and stuff like that. However, with the Dawnshard, I interpreted it as binding a creature to the bearer's will, or perhaps imprisoning something. While the word is the same, in my mind they have subtly different meanings.

I don't think we know what it means in this context yet.

The fact that it can bind "voidish" creatures is also interesting.

I'm also curious if different Dawnshards do different things.

[Earendil]

We don't know about the Heralds specifically, but Jasnah does mention that each Radiant's powers were tied to the spren (page 979), and since Jasnah isn't seeing honorspren, it's fairly obvious that each order of radiants used a different spren.  That makes it likely that the Heralds also got their powers from spren, but there's enough that we don't know that there could be an alternate explanation.

[Munin]

Or maybe the Dawnshards are fabrials of some sort.

[hoser]

Synthesizing, stealing and wildly speculating, it seems to me that "dawn" could be used as a prefix for anything in the "prehistory" of Roshar. If the "modern" era begins sometime after the recreance and the most recent desolation, then Dawnshards and Shards of Adonalsium could be synonyms. The interesting quotes for me are in Dalinar's final vision (paperback p 1246):

... and return to men the Shards they once bore.

A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And ... without the Dawnshards ... Well, I have done what I can.

These quotes could be referring to the same things as Shards and Dawnshards. I don't see how Shardblades and Shardplate could be returned to men when men still have them, so I don't see the quote referring to them.

Elsewhere in these forums, I have read that Honor, Odium and Cultivation are the Shards that were on Roshar. Odium still seems to be active and therefore borne by a man (generically, or a woman). The implication of the above quote is that there are plural Shards that are not currently borne by people. Since the only non-odium Shards on Roshar seem to be Cultivation and Honor, the implication is that both Honor (borne by Tanavast until Odium killed him?) and Cultivation are both not being borne by people. A further implication is that without finding and taking up the unused Shards, reestablishing the Knights Radiant and getting Odium to choose a champion will not be likely to work very well.

[dyring]

Synthesizing, stealing and wildly speculating, it seems to me that "dawn" could be used as a prefix for anything in the "prehistory" of Roshar. If the "modern" era begins sometime after the recreance and the most recent desolation, then Dawnshards and Shards of Adonalsium could be synonyms. The interesting quotes for me are in Dalinar's final vision (paperback p 1246):

These quotes could be referring to the same things as Shards and Dawnshards. I don't see how Shardblades and Shardplate could be returned to men when men still have them, so I don't see the quote referring to them.

Elsewhere in these forums, I have read that Honor, Odium and Cultivation are the Shards that were on Roshar. Odium still seems to be active and therefore borne by a man (generically, or a woman). The implication of the above quote is that there are plural Shards that are not currently borne by people. Since the only non-odium Shards on Roshar seem to be Cultivation and Honor, the implication is that both Honor (borne by Tanavast until Odium killed him?) and Cultivation are both not being borne by people. A further implication is that without finding and taking up the unused Shards, reestablishing the Knights Radiant and getting Odium to choose a champion will not be likely to work very well.

I would very much think it refers to the blades of the heralds, wich are not regular shardblades, and thus called Dawnshards. Quite likely regular shards are some sort of lesser copy of theese. Atleast 9 of theese where suposedly(?) lost when 9 of the heralds left them behind, so they can be returned.

Random quote from the prologue of tWoK

These blades where weapons of power beyond even shardblades. These where unique. Precious.

So returning those may very well be needed, and they are indeed plural and unused;)

[hoser]

I would very much think it refers to the blades of the heralds, wich are not regular shardblades, and thus called Dawnshards. Quite likely regular shards are some sort of lesser copy of theese. Atleast 9 of theese where suposedly(?) lost when 9 of the heralds left them behind, so they can be returned.

Random quote from the prologue of tWoK

So returning those may very well be needed, and they are indeed plural and unused;)

Yes, dyring, I think you make an excellent point. The honorblades could be helpful or necessary. They could hold some measure of Honor's power. I've even seen speculation that seemed to imply that Szeth was carrying one.

It brings up other questions:

Can they be found?

Do the Heralds need to use them?

Do the Heralds need to reassemble?

[digression] I even get a picture of an adventure to find and convince the Heralds to come out of retirement ... [/digression]

The one thing I don't get: Dawnshards and Honorblades are two completely different words. They are both apparently powerful and can be borne, but I don't understand them to be the same things. I know that there are Shardblades that share a sub-word with each, but I don't get how that makes Dawnshards and Honorblades the same. So I don't see how the final vision quote from Honor is about Honorblades. Educate me, please.

I also imagine that if the final quote is talking about the Shards of Adonal-Gibber-Balder-sium, then they are so much more powerful than the awesome Honorblades, that Honor would emphasize them even if the Honorblades are also needed.

Of course, the final quote could just be Tanavast's recorded point of view. In which case the Dawnshards could be a red herring, or irreparably shattered or splintered or whatever. The Honorblades could then be the vital remnants of Honor that hold off the final Desolation.

My personal opinion is that the speech is more significant and that someone will take up and/or reassemble the Shard of Honor. Dalinar seems like a logical candidate, but that's probably too obvious.

[Wispsy]

Even tho they did leave them the heralds probably just resummoned them sometime later right? Some might still have theirs now

[Windrunner]

Posted Today, 02:04 PM

Even tho they did leave them the heralds probably just resummoned them sometime later right? Some might still have theirs now

I don't think the Heralds can or would want to summon the Honorblades. The way that they gave the Honorblades up, to escape the cycle of Damnations they were forced to endure, makes it seem that the Honorblades are tied directly to the Oathpact. It seemed to me that the swords were at least in part the source of their power(the Heralds are still immortal without the Honorblades). By giving them up and walking away from their duty they overturned the Oathpact, which has unknown consequences. I think since the Heralds gave up their burden willingly they wouldn't be eager, or at least too ashamed, to bind themselves to the Oathpact yet again by reclaiming the Honorblades.

[CrazyRioter]

Brandon has said that it's possible for somebody who isn't a Herald to use one of the Honorblades, what consequences that would have for said person is unknown.

[dj26792]

I always assumed the dawnshards and the honourblades were the same things with the name Dawnshards being forgotten over time (There's a quote somewhere that implies the term isn't something modern scholars study, but older ones did) and the honourblades being invented to give the weapons of the heralds a name.

In another thread I read discussion on the number of shardblades and suits of shardplate in the world and the number left by the radients. There are easily a thousand missing sets... hoser referred to the quote about returning the shards, that could easily be referring to this massive cache of weapons that would make a huge difference in a war, and could potentially convince Odium to name a champion and have it out in a duel rather than a war, its certainly an idea worth considering

[fiveAM]

I'm of the opinion that the Dawnshard and Honorblades are different. First is simply the fact that they are both written as with a capital letter. This makes it a name, not simply what its called. A blade and a Blade have very different connotations, and other than titles, objects don't usually have multiple names, and especially for a group of objects. Why have 2 words for the same thing? Also, Dawnshards and Honorblades are both mentioned sparingly throughout tWoK. It's easy to think of them as the same thing because they are established to be different from Shardblades and much more powerful, but i don't see any evidence of them being used interchangeably. Saying that they are the same seems to be pure conjecture.

Also, in the quote from Tanavast about choosing a Champion but the absence of Dawnshards. The language, "without the Dawnshards..." seems to imply that the Dawnshards are lost or destroyed, ie. Tanavast does not know where they are or cannot gain access to them. The Honorblades however are shown to be accessible. At the end of the book, Taln shows up carrying his Honorblade. Also, the rest of the Heralds left their Honorblades all together. I know Brandon has mentioned that we have seen some of the Heralds in the book, and some others have been talked about, so the Heralds are still alive! They know where the Honorblades are, so they are not lost or destroyed, the Dawnshards however are.

It seems to me that little as there is, there is some evidence that the Dawnshards and Honorblades are different. On the other hand, there isn't any evidence that they are actually the one and the same. Believing that they are the same is pure conjecture, and the believer's own jump in logic.

[Ari]

Minor quibble: A name simply is what something is called. A nickname might be less formal and official, but it is still a name. A proper name is a name that is intended to signify only a single thing- for instance, Berlin is the proper name of only a single city, and ironically, although there are thousands of John Smiths, each one is a proper name when used in the context of that single person, too.

In terms of grammar and language, the capital on Honourblades and Dawnshards is only appropriate if they're proper names, but it's quite clear that these terms are being used as regular nouns. Brandon is just using the capitals as a way to signal that these terms are in-universe jargon, which is an established fantasy convention. There's really nothing to say that two terms of jargon can't overlap in meaning: For instance, all Honourblades might be Dawnshards, but there might also be Dawnshards that aren't Honourblades, and if you want to argue that Honourblades aren't Dawnshards, I think a better reason than "they both have capital letters" would be useful, especially as I'm inclined to agree with you.

I'm not so sure your second point is really proof of anything- the Dawnshards are always referred to in the plural iirc, so they might have to work collectively. If Honourblades really are dawnshards, then you might need all the honourblades together for them to function as dawnshards, for instance.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Ari

[Wispsy]

From shallan:

"...much like the Dawnshards or the Honourblades"

Sounds diff to me

[dj26792]

But, is that people in universe being wrong, or are they actually different? Shallan is talking about ancient history, how much do we know about our own ancient history, how much do we think we know thats actually wrong... they have all those problems too, we've seen one set of artifacts in their history, that are associated with the heralds, the dawnshards, and we've seen one modern term of unknown origin with a name that sounds like it would be associated with the heralds, the honourblades, we also have a quote that suggests that modern scholars have forgotten about the dawnshards, that suggests to me that they forgot what the dawnshards were and needed a name for the heralds weapons and named them, the honorblades.

[CrazyRioter]

actually Brandon has referred to the Heralds' swords as Honorblades, so I think that's the official name for them.

Edited December 12, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[discipleofhoid]

To me the thing that suggests they are different is the quote this thread started with:

“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

—From The Poem of Ista. I have found no modern explanation of what these “Dawnshards” are. They seem ignored by scholars, though talk of them was obviously prevalent among those recording the early mythologies.

This is a ancient poem so chances of the poem getting it wrong are smaller. To me it is difficult imagining a sword binding any creature. This implies to me that the Dawnshard(s) is something distinct from the Honorblades.

The other point is that in the prologue the Swords are not called Dawnshards or shards by the heralds. Instead they are called Blades - note the capital letter.

If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished.

These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious.

If the proper name for the swords is Honorblade that makes sense. If the proper name is Dawnshard then the capital on Blade does not make sense.

The only way I could see the Honorblades being Dawnshards is if there are multiple types of Dawnshards and the Honorblades are just one of those types.

Edited December 12, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Wispsy]

Perhaps Dawnshards are odium honour and cultivation?