Why TLR was so strong

[Guest Galavantes]

So we all know TLR was a beast. He used allomancy, compounding and hemalurgy to become so powerful that even mistborn considered him to be a God. But the question is: Why was his allomancy so abnormally strong? And it WAS abnormally strong. Lets look at some facts:

1: He maintained a soothing at all times that was so powerful it could be felt even through a coppercloud.

2: He could pierce copperclouds fairly easily.

3: He could push on metals within someone's body. In fact he could do it very powerfully.

This is -way- more powerful than even very strong mistborn. This can't be explained by the fact that he is a "1st generation" mistborn (ie: he obtained his allomancy via larasium). Elendel also used larasiumm and wasn't nearly as powerful as TLR.

It's possible that he was so powerful because he used the WOA, however this is really only a possibility because it hasn't been ruled out. There is no actual evidence that the Well is how he obtained his strength.

Here's my theory: Investiture compounding.

We already know that one mistborn can be stronger than others. Kelsier said Vin was stronger than him. If we accept that investiture is essentially a persons spiritual connection with a shard, then its reasonable to assume that a stronger connection will allow them to more effectively use the powers granted by that shard.

Also Brandon has stated that a twinborn -can- increase their allomantic abilities using feruchemistry, this would fit into the theory nicely.

[Vikachu]

I think it's mostly just the fact that feruchemy can boost allomancy. Additionally, TLR's baseline allomancy would still be stronger than Elend's despite both having taken lerasium due to TLR having already been a Misting before ingesting it.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Was he? Alendi was a Misting (a Seeker), but I never had reason to assume that Rashek was anything more than a Feruchemist.

He might be stronger than usual since he touched Preservation directly at one point, and certain is because of his long practice, and access to otherwise-unknown metals.

[TheBobs]

I don't think TLR was a misting prior . . .

[Guest Galavantes]

I think it's mostly just the fact that feruchemy can boost allomancy. Additionally, TLR's baseline allomancy would still be stronger than Elend's despite both having taken lerasium due to TLR having already been a Misting before ingesting it.

Other than the theory that investiture can increase allomancy, I don't know of anyway that ferochemy boosts allomancy? Also I haven't seen anything that suggests TLR was a misting before ingesting larasium..

[Arcanist Lupus]

I mostly chalked TLR's power up to his being a Sliver. Also, the occasional use of Duralumin to make his point probably helped.

(Also, I don't think this is likely, but if TLR was hemalurgically spiked, that could increase his power.)

If Investiture storage works as you've hypothesized (which seems reasonable, but is not guaranteed), TLR could have easily used it to boost his powers as well IF he had a supply of nicrosil (and if he was compounding it, he'd need a steady supply of it.) Would he have been able to get it? Probably, but a steady supply would probably have been very difficult to obtain secretly.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

If Investiture storage works as you've hypothesized (which seems reasonable, but is not guaranteed)

This. The Investure theory is cool and makes some sense, but I really wish people would stop treating it as canon.

And, personally, I do not believe that the Lord Ruler even knew about Chromim and Nicrosil, otherwise they would have been in his supply caverns as the ultimate anti-Inquisitor weapon.

[Smidge]

While I can't remember much of what we know about what the different types of metal spikes are supposed to do for hemalurgy, I believe it's been confirmed that TLR's atium bracers were hemalurgically charged... Could it be possible that an atium hemalurgic spike can transfer *all* a mistborn's powers? 'cause if he made them early in the peace when mistborn were still as naturally strong as him he could have roughly triple super-strength everything, which oughta explain it. Atium hemalurgic spikes would hardly be overpowered or reproducible either seeing how rare it is.

Or maybe he was totally greedy and ate several larasium beads (I wonder if that would work...)

[Deus Ex Biotica]

As far as we know, Atium can steal any one power (Q&A sessions), the twelve pieces of Lerasium were too valuable to waste (Sazed), and the bracers were, indeed Hemalurgic spikes (Brandonthology).

Of those, Sazed's notes are the only uncertain source. That said, if he really wanted a lot of Hemalurgic power, each bracer could have been made of several smaller spikes - if they spent very little time outside the bodies of their victims, it could have still worked.

[Arcanist Lupus]

And, personally, I do not believe that the Lord Ruler even knew about Chromim and Nicrosil, otherwise they would have been in his supply caverns as the ultimate anti-Inquisitor weapon.

I believe Sazed said in one of the epigraphs that being a Sliver gave TLR some instinctive understanding of the three Metallic Arts.

I agree it seems odd that he didn't mention the metals in the supply cavern messages, but again, knowledge is all well and good, but if he didn't have any Chromium or Nicrosil, it doesn't matter what it can do.

[Guinevere]

*Alloy of Law Spoilers!*

After reading Alloy of Law, I was thinking a lot about TLR and what the limit of his powers would be. One need only look as far as Miles to see how much power TLR had at his disposal.

Miles compounding of gold tells us a lot about the nature of compounding Twinborns. When you think about TLR as a Twinborn with every possible combination and being able to compound each available metal, it would seem as if his power was infinite. Gold alone made Miles practically invincible, and it does mention in MB that TLR was completely invincible. (I don't have my books, but I think the quote is something like:) People burned down his inn and he walked out of it growing new skin immediately, and decapitation only annoys him. That seems pretty similar to someone compounding gold.

If TLR was compounding each and every one of his metals, with a little hemalurgy thrown in there somewhere, plus his past as the Sliver, that should explain why he was considered a god.

[Chaos]

I like this theory, Galavantes! At the Alloy release (my Alloy report is coming, for reals...) we asked how the Lord Ruler Soothed. He said that savants do have an upper limit to the power they grant, and that Elend needed to use duralumin to Soothe like the Lord Ruler, which obviously wasn't what the Lord Ruler was doing. Then Brandon said that the Lord Ruler did it by Compounding.

As we all were shopping at Walmart for supplies, I basically came to the same conclusion: its Investiture Compounding. Let me describe the way that I thought about it, in case others are unconvinced. I described Investiture a little more specifically in my mind. That's really the million dollar question, right? What does Investiture storage do?

If we accept that investiture is essentially a persons spiritual connection with a shard, then its reasonable to assume that a stronger connection will allow them to more effectively use the powers granted by that shard.

Not quite, if I read the Alloy Ars Arcanum explicitly. Regarding Allomancy, it says: "The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running." The spiritual connection to a Shard--your capability for Allomancy--is not an Investiture. Burning a metal, however, is one.

So, knowing that Feruchemy essentially moves power through time, when you store Investiture, you are storing something like that. I can't imagine what other sorts of things Investiture could store, but let's stick to the point with Allomancy: you are just storing your Allomantic effect--an Investiture--that you can later tap. Maybe I want to save a lot of pewter to make my pewter drag easier. Let's face it, eating a bunch of pewter isn't tasty. So I'll just store up my nicrosilmind with a bunch of the effect of Allomantic pewter, then tap it when I want a lot of Allomancy. I'd imagine that, like tin, you'd have a nicrosilmind for each Investiture, like Soothing.

A nicrosil Ferring who had any Allomantic ability, then, would be a huge boon, since you could do the equivalent of tapping a lot of "strength" in a short amount of time. Only instead of getting really buff, like you would if you were tapping a lot of strength, you're tapping Allomancy. You could ostensibly get a quick duralumin-level burst from that. And heck, it's not as if it's physically painful for you to burn metals--it's much safer to store your Soothing Investiture than your own health. It's a badass power.

And, when you can Compound nicrosil... you have your Allomantic ability stored, and now it's enhanced from the Compounding. So you get more Allomancy for free. When you're the Lord Ruler and best Allomancer there ever was, that means 1. You can store a lot of the Investiture to begin with, and 2. Your Compounding is holy crap awesomely powerful.

Can you imagine a nicrosil Twinborn? You could Compound nicrosil bursts. Wow.

Of course, the specifics largely depend on how storing Investiture works, but I think this is the clearest way. It's more specific than how you described it, Galavantes.

As for if the Lord Ruler knew of nicrosil, we asked Brandon that, and he said with his signature smile, "the Lord Ruler knew lots of things."

Plus, you guys, Sazed suspects the Lord Ruler knew of them:

Yes, there are sixteen metals. I find it highly unlikely that the Lord Ruler did not know of them all. Indeed, the fact that he spoke of several on the plates in the storage caches meant that he knew at least of those.

[Guest Galavantes]

This. The Investure theory is cool and makes some sense, but I really wish people would stop treating it as canon.

I pretty much assumed we were theorycrafting here. None of us actually know for sure how investiture work so this is all total speculation, but it certainly seems to fit.

So, knowing that Feruchemy essentially moves power through time, when you store Investiture, you are storing something like that. I can't imagine what other sorts of things Investiture could store, but let's stick to the point with Allomancy: you are just storing your Allomantic effect--an Investiture--that you can later tap. Maybe I want to save a lot of pewter to make my pewter drag easier. Let's face it, eating a bunch of pewter isn't tasty. So I'll just store up my nicrosilmind with a bunch of the effect of Allomantic pewter, then tap it when I want a lot of Allomancy. I'd imagine that, like tin, you'd have a nicrosilmind for each Investiture, like Soothing.

This makes a lot of sense, and you're almost certainly correct that you would be storing an investiture of each specific allomantic metal in an individual metalmind, rather than simply allomantic strength like I was thinking. The only iffy part of this is that I'm not actually sure that your description would increase the strength of an allomantic effect.

Here's how I think of it:

TLR burns pewter. Instead of becoming physically stronger he simply stores that investiture in a nicrosil metalmind.

TLR burns his nicrosil metalmind, thus compounding his investiture and stores this increased pewter investiture in another nicrosil metalmind.

Now if TLR taps that metalmind....what happens? I see two possibilities:

1) TLR has super compounded pewter, which I think is what you are describing.

2) TLR has -exactly the same strength- of pewter, but simply has more of it, as if he had consumed 10x as much pewter as he actually did. This is less awesome, but still useful as he doesn't have to walk around with a huge chunk of pewter in his stomach.

I still think that compounding investiture is how TLR was so uber, but we might be missing something on the exact mechanics of it.

-Edit-

Actually now that I think of it, it could work both ways. Tapping a metalmind doesn't work the same way as burning a metal. You have more control over how much of a metalmind you're using. Its possible that by compounding an allomantic effect then you could -either- use it at normal strength for 10x as long, or use it at 10x strength for the same amount of time.

Of course this means that TLR could have actually been a ridiculously powerful allomancer who never had to burn metals. Hah.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Galavantes

[Catalyst21]

A different spin on the same idea

TLR burns age-stored-atium. Instead of becoming younger he simply stores that investiture in a nicrosil metalmind.

TLR burns his nicrosil metalmind, thus compounding his investiture and stores this increased age investiture in another nicrosil metalmind.

Now if TLR taps that metalmind....what happens?

Super compounded age....

also he could burn non-age infused atium and store that in nicrosil, thus having atium available without having to swallow it and regurgitate it if it was not needed, its already burned and standing by when its needed.

[Guest Galavantes]

A different spin on the same idea

TLR burns age-stored-atium. Instead of becoming younger he simply stores that investiture in a nicrosil metalmind.

TLR burns his nicrosil metalmind, thus compounding his investiture and stores this increased age investiture in another nicrosil metalmind.

Now if TLR taps that metalmind....what happens?

Super compounded age....

also he could burn non-age infused atium and store that in nicrosil, thus having atium available without having to swallow it and regurgitate it if it was not needed, its already burned and standing by when its needed.

Exactly. I was also thinking this could solve the problem with TLR's atium supply. Being able to compound both its allomantic AND feruchemical properties means he actually wouldn't need very much of it.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Maybe, but he had access to a ton of it, if he wanted to. He might have smuggled quite a few beads to himself, even if most of them never left the pits.