Miles, The Set, and Madness

[Deus Ex Biotica]

The Threads on The Set and Trellism touched on this, but now that I have a guess, I think it needs some space of its own.

Incongruous details:

* Miles' idea of Trellism seems totally unrelated to anything we knew about the religion previously.

* While dying, Miles had strange delusions.

* The Late Lord Ladrian boasted that he did not sound like Miles - Miles sounded like him... even though Miles clearly did not see him as the source of any spiritual or personal epiphany, just a temporary ally of convenience.

So, why did Miles suddenly turn to absurdly large-scale crime and raving madness, apparently at the behest of someone he didn't even know was controlling him? Hemalurgy. Someone's been secretly charging his Metalminds before he puts them in.

Wouldn't Hemalurgy just make him closer to Sazed? Apparently not. There's pretty good evidence that Bloody Tan was also going Hemalurgically insane - it seems that something else, either a very strong Rioter/Soother (or team of same), or some other Shard (can any Shard interact with Hemalurgy? We do not know - Preservation was in no position to try) is using spikes to control people with violent aims. And the Set are in on it.

That, or Miles was an unstable guy who got manipulated, and I'm just being paranoid.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[lordofsoup]

Well considering the number of times that Miles apparently had his brains blown out of his hear, his ridiculous pain tolerance, I can definitely see why he is crazy. Makes me wonder if they will have fear factor in Mistborn 2. I also think that Harmony does not bother with the world, but lets it go its own way for the most part.

[lauren.e135]

Yeah, I think Miles went nuts because he saw himself as a god, and he saw all of the corruption in and from the city. Unsatisfied with the way things were being handled, he decided to take things into his own hands. And we know from Wax that he has an unforgiving sense of justice. He was always boiling beneath the surface, and he finally had enough.

As for the delusions at the end, I think he was just unstable. OR he did know something (probably knowing BS. I doubt that little tid bit will be for nothing). But at this point it's hard to say what.

It's possible that Miles was spiked, but I don't think he needed to be to be the way he was. Also, with the Shards being balanced, I don't think that being spiked has the same negative effects (psychologically) as it did in the Mistborn trilogy.

Also, Miles thought he was simply playing puppet, and did not surrender himself to the control of another so to speak.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

It's possible that Miles was spiked, but I don't think he needed to be to be the way he was. Also, with the Shards being balanced, I don't think that being spiked has the same negative effects (psychologically) as it did in the Mistborn trilogy.

With all respect, we have no possible way of knowing that. We see exactly nothing of what he was like before he started running the Vanishers. We do know that he tended to kill criminals rather than jailing them, that Wax respected him, and that Wayne thought he was a terrible person, but we have no read on whether the emotions he displays are in keeping with his nature.

Also, Miles thought he was simply playing puppet, and did not surrender himself to the control of another so to speak.

Yes. Exactly. This is precisely why it makes no sense at all for the philosophy he spouts off to Wax when nobody else is around (and to the firing squad when he has no reason to put on a show for The Set) to align with those of the people he merely pretended loyalty towards.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[Sparkle]

The issue I have with Miles being spiked is who would know how to spike him? Sazed and Marsh are the only two that we know for sure could do it. Spiking people seems againist anything that Sazed would do. Marsh... what would be his motivation do something like that? It is possible that maybe the kandra knew about spiking, but they seem to be keeping a pretty low profile. Another issue with the spiking is that the spike had to be somewhere that could not easily be dislodged. With Miles tendency for getting blown up/shot this might be pretty hard to do without him noticing. Chances are, when he did notice, he would probably remove said spike since it would mess up the healing process.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Let us be frank: Hemalurgy is not going to stay restricted to people too ethical to use it indefinitely.

I could theorize about rogue Kandra, conspiracies going back to the Words Of Founding, some project of Marsh's gone wrong, servants of Odium, or the unknown author of the writeup at the end of Alloy Of Law, but I've never been really confident in that wort of thing. Here is what I am confident in: Hemalurgy is too useful and too creepy a setting element to just disappear. Even if I am wrong about Miles and others are wrong about Tan, it will be used by villains again.

The question of how is interesting, but the question of whether it shall occur at all is... nonexistent.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

[lauren.e135]

With all respect, we have no possible way of knowing that. We see exactly nothing of what he was like before he started running the Vanishers. We do know that he tended to kill criminals rather than jailing them, that Wax respected him, and that Wayne thought he was a terrible person, but we have no read on whether the emotions he displays are in keeping with his nature.

Well considering that the main reason hemalurgy drove people mad was because of Ruin's influence, I think its fairly safe to say that the negative psychological factors are gone. Hemalurgy connected people to Ruin, and he used that connection to corrupt them and further destruction. Now we have Harmony who has no such plans. Stick a hemalurically charged spike into someone and all it does is make it easier for them to communicate with Harmony (hello Pathian Earring).

Now do we know 100% that there are absolutely no negative psychological effects? No, not necessarily. But Ruin is gone so that aspect works differently now.

Yes. Exactly. This is precisely why it makes no sense at all for the philosophy he spouts off to Wax when nobody else is around (and to the firing squad when he has no reason to put on a show for The Set) to align with those of the people he merely pretended loyalty towards.

You misunderstand me. Or maybe I am misunderstanding you. I believe Miles believed that completely. But the whole "Miles working for the Set" I do not think was because he was tricked into submission. I think he saw someone with something he needed, so he used them.

Hemalurgy is too useful and too creepy a setting element to just disappear. Even if I am wrong about Miles and others are wrong about Tan, it will be used by villains again.

The question of how is interesting, but the question of whether it shall occur at all is... nonexistent.

I agree, but I disagree on your timing. Hemalurgy is only one of three metallic arts, and it was focused on so heavily in the MB trilogy. From the stand point of writing, I think the other aspects (feruchemy) will be featured more before we swing back onto hemalurgy. Going back to it now seems to soon. I mean, in a way it's one big red herring. It was the big bad villain in the last book(s), so it's reasonable to assume it's hidden in AoL somewhere too. It may be, but it makes more sense to me from a writing stance to play upon something else. "Hemalurgy is always the bad guy" is too static.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I understand that. And maybe you're even right - I'm not completely sold upon this theory. (And we do know at least one place in Alloy of Law that Hemalurgy is hidden on the side of the good guys - Wax's earring.) So long as you're not disputing that it will show back up, and be used on the "killing lots of people to make superman" scale again, someday.

[Pechvarry]

So, why did Miles suddenly turn to absurdly large-scale crime and raving madness, apparently at the behest of someone he didn't even know was controlling him? Hemalurgy. Someone's been secretly charging his Metalminds before he puts them in.

Wouldn't Hemalurgy just make him closer to Sazed? Apparently not. There's pretty good evidence that Bloody Tan was also going Hemalurgically insane - it seems that something else, either a very strong Rioter/Soother (or team of same), or some other Shard (can any Shard interact with Hemalurgy? We do not know - Preservation was in no position to try) is using spikes to control people with violent aims. And the Set are in on it.

That, or Miles was an unstable guy who got manipulated, and I'm just being paranoid.

-- Deus Ex Biotica

I was at work tonight thinking of this post (yeah, I know...) when I remembered the Koloss.

How did Vin control Koloss? Presumably, it has to do with the fact they're hemalurgic entities (I don't remember enough, and I have a habit of loaning out my favorite books for years at a time). So I've been thinking about this from the wrong perspective. It's not that spiked people are easier for Ruin in particular to control -- it could be that Hemalurgy creates a "backdoor" to someone's will. Ruin, as the author of this Master Key, was simply the most effective at employing this technique. Just like taking over Koloss, a powerful enough emotional allomancer could probably have strong effects on the psyche of a spiked individual. Hand him the gold spikes, and he'll even be kind enough to pierce himself.

So yeah, I could see some foul play with hemalurgy turning up again.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Pechvarry

[Aiken Frost]

The thing with Koloss and Kandra being controlled through emotional allomancy have nothing to do with Ruin itself. It was a weakness that The Lord Ruler put in them as a safe measure if he lost control over them. That being said, I don't think Ruin could directly control anyone, just slightly influence spiked people. He needed the Inquisitors to control the Koloss after all.

I could be remembering it wrong, though.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

The weakness against emotional Allomancy is inherent in Hemalurgy - Sazed confirms as much in one of the Hero Of Ages epigraphs.

[happyman]

The thing with Koloss and Kandra being controlled through emotional allomancy have nothing to do with Ruin itself. It was a weakness that The Lord Ruler put in them as a safe measure if he lost control over them. That being said, I don't think Ruin could directly control anyone, just slightly influence spiked people. He needed the Inquisitors to control the Koloss after all.

I could be remembering it wrong, though.

You aren't remembering it wrong. It's just that the characters were wrong in some if their conclusions. In WoA, Vin believes that TLR created the emotional allomancy weakness as his personal back door. In HoA, though, Sazed says (and the other characters independently realize) that it seems to be inherent to the Hemalurgic process itself. Given what Brandon has said about it, it seems likely---it leaves the person's soul mangled. This apparently opens a back-door into the mind, perhaps through the spiritual realm (are emotions spiritual?).

[lauren.e135]

The thing with Koloss and Kandra being controlled through emotional allomancy have nothing to do with Ruin itself. It was a weakness that The Lord Ruler put in them as a safe measure if he lost control over them. That being said, I don't think Ruin could directly control anyone, just slightly influence spiked people. He needed the Inquisitors to control the Koloss after all.

I could be remembering it wrong, though.

As Deus said, the weakness was inherent with hemalurgy. That's why the kandra had a clause to commit sentient suicide by ripping out their spikes if Ruin got free so he couldn't see where they had hidden the atium. My guess is that when holding the shards power at the well TLR learned of this aspect of hemalurgy and thus used it in his creations.

As Ruin never directly controlling anyone, we have direct examples of Ruin controlling Marsh's movements.

The amount of spikes someone has in them makes it harder or easier for Ruin to control them. Inquisitors had many, making it easy for Ruin to control them.

My guess is that the number of spikes in a person's body determines the "size" or the back door, so to speak.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Side note: in previous posts, I have assumed tyhat Copperclouds could block Hemalurgy, but I have increasingly realized that this makes little sense. The Lord Ruler, and then Ruin, kept control of the Inquisitors quite absolutely. As such, the back door seems to be something which transcends even Allomancy - I wonder if AonDor would also be able to exploit it.

[Aiken Frost]

The weakness against emotional Allomancy is inherent in Hemalurgy - Sazed confirms as much in one of the Hero Of Ages epigraphs.

You aren't remembering it wrong. It's just that the characters were wrong in some if their conclusions. In WoA, Vin believes that TLR created the emotional allomancy weakness as his personal back door. In HoA, though, Sazed says (and the other characters independently realize) that it seems to be inherent to the Hemalurgic process itself. Given what Brandon has said about it, it seems likely---it leaves the person's soul mangled. This apparently opens a back-door into the mind, perhaps through the spiritual realm (are emotions spiritual?).

As Deus said, the weakness was inherent with hemalurgy. That's why the kandra had a clause to commit sentient suicide by ripping out their spikes if Ruin got free so he couldn't see where they had hidden the atium. My guess is that when holding the shards power at the well TLR learned of this aspect of hemalurgy and thus used it in his creations.

As Ruin never directly controlling anyone, we have direct examples of Ruin controlling Marsh's movements.

The amount of spikes someone has in them makes it harder or easier for Ruin to control them. Inquisitors had many, making it easy for Ruin to control them.

My guess is that the number of spikes in a person's body determines the "size" or the back door, so to speak.

TRIPLE COMBO!!! Hehehehe.

I was obviously misremembering it, then. Thank you for the correction, guys.

[Deus Ex Biotica]

Hey, Aiken, did you know that the weakness is due to Ruin, not the Lord Ruler? Deep stuff, man.

[Ari]

There are likely other side-effects to receiving hemalurgical spikes than just simply the influence of other Allomancers or whoever controls Ruin's powers. Consider that Koloss and Kandra were both created using human-charged hemalurgical spikes as opposed to allomantically- or feruchemically-charged ones...

[lauren.e135]

There are likely other side-effects to receiving hemalurgical spikes than just simply the influence of other Allomancers or whoever controls Ruin's powers. Consider that Koloss and Kandra were both created using human-charged hemalurgical spikes as opposed to allomantically- or feruchemically-charged ones...

And were therefore granted sentience. But considering how different the two are, I'm not sure what additional side effects you are alluding to.

This is what we seem to know about hemalurgy:

It grants either allomantic or feruchemical powers, or sentience.

The observed side effects are that the spiked individual become susceptible to another (allomancer or Ruin's shard holder) controlling their body.

Now, Ari's post makes me wonder: Why were koloss so violent when the kandra were more in control of their faculties?

[Deus Ex Biotica]

I think it is because Koloss used to be human, so the addition of the traits of other humans makes them insane, while Kandra used to be Mistwraiths, which are non-sentient and built to absorb the traits of others.

Spike placement may be a factor, as well.

[Ari]

Right, I was thinking there were likely side-effects to the various spike placements in addition to the vulnerability to incredibly powerful soothing.

[Aradel]

Did Miles have to have a spike to be manipulated though? A deft touch with emotional allomancy, maybe some feruchemical fortune and freindship, (alliteration! only I think the freindship is supposed to be bonds.) And suddenly he's on your side.

Also, I think it was mentioned when he used his Auger abilities that he was surprised to find that his past and present selves hated each other. Did anyone else catch that?

[Deus Ex Biotica]

He was upset that they hated each other, sure. He didn't exactly seem surprised.

It's pretty clear that Miles knows, on some level, he isn't all right in the head. He's just also arrogant enough to keep going, regardless.

[Vauric]

I like the idea that Miles is being controlled/influenced via being spiked, but I think people are forgeting that the spikes that open that door aren't your random door nail. They're infused either with allomancy/feruchemy/humanity, meaning someone would have had to give them to Miles. Were I Miles, if someone randomly gave me a gold spike, I'd be a bit suspicious.

I guess that if the spikes/goldminds he has in himself didn't come from an outside source, would they get infused from him dying a bajillion times? Maybe they're slowing sapping him after each death, and that's what causes him to lose his humanity/empathy?

[discipleofhoid]

I like the idea that Miles is being controlled/influenced via being spiked, but I think people are forgeting that the spikes that open that door aren't your random door nail. They're infused either with allomancy/feruchemy/humanity, meaning someone would have had to give them to Miles. Were I Miles, if someone randomly gave me a gold spike, I'd be a bit suspicious.

I guess that if the spikes/goldminds he has in himself didn't come from an outside source, would they get infused from him dying a bajillion times? Maybe they're slowing sapping him after each death, and that's what causes him to lose his humanity/empathy?

What if Miles accidentally spiked himself - Putting in a goldmind tore his spiritWeb and latter he moved where that goldmind was spiking himself with some ability when he reattached it someplace else. He didn't die because of his rapid healing abilities - of course that would drastically change his personality.

[Arcanist Lupus]

I don't think Miles was spiked. I'm not discounting the possibility, but it seems a difficult enough art that he couldn't be spiked accidentally, and nobody was in the position to spike him on purpose. About metalminds, remember that they don't have to pierce the skin. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Miles did pierce his skin with his, seeing as he's often dealing with Lurchers and Coinshots when tracking down criminals.

I'm more inclined to believe that any insanity in Miles derives from being shot in the head too many times. I don't care how perfectly/rapidly you can heal, a bullet through the brain is going to have mental repercussions. They would be slight, but enough bullets through the brain, and you'll be left with at least some instability. Remember, also, that Miles had difficulty healing his eye when some fabric got trapped in there when Wax shot it.