Neroz

No worries, I get a little lost in the dramatics sometime. I tend to see things in black and white, very little grey area. (particularly when I'm chatting about something as cool as Dalinar) Under the pretense this ends up being the canon, how do you think he would interact with Kelsier? I can absolutely see a space faring, war mongering Dalinar going to toe to toe with Kelsier and his merry band of Ghostbloods. At the same time, an older and more experienced Kelsier working with a space conquering Dalinar would just be an absolute treat. Is there a particular direction you think their inevitable collision will head us down?

My personal favorite is MeLaan, there's never a dull moment when they are in the scene. Best character in Era 2 IMO.

This just boggles me. I see it in a completely different light. The way I’ve read it is that before the pruning, Dalinar was a less then honorable blood thirsty warlord who was dishonorable in any lens other then being a good Alethi or a good Voren, which do have different and distinct expectations of their constituents then what we would traditionally apply. (And in WoK WoR, Dalinar explicitly turmoils internally about not following Alethi/Voren social etiquette) It’s after the pruning where he swings into honor for me, and what you perceive as him being dishonorable is the opposite for me. I recognize his failures but his children love him, his wife loves him, and as far as we can tell, his people and the majority of Radiants seem to believe in him as well. If neither if us have swayed at this point I don’t see either of us doing so, we are gonna have to read and find out! Heres to Dalinar hopefully not becoming a villain like Kelsier!

Vorenism is larger then Alethkar, it’s the prevalent religion in eastern roshar. Yes yes yes! It all remains to be seen. The dichotomy of Dalinar is the best part of him. He’s a monster learning to be a man. I can’t really expand much more on my opinion without retreading ground so I’m gonna ask for a parley. I totally get not liking Dalinar, killing your wife is hard hurtle to climb in the honor department. Based on what I see of your opinion Dalinar, do you think he’s going to fail miserably? Kill the Storm father? I’m really hoping he succeeds, I want to see him truly Radiant in the back 5. and on the Navani topic, I don’t have a qualm with them at all. Don’t really want to go into more detail on that one.

I am 100% simplifying Taravangian, I'm particularly referring the lovely hearthside dad chat they had where Taravangian all but admits he's accepted the blood on his hands and will, even if with a heavy heart, bloody them further.

I agree with this statement. Dalinars journey is not possible without the outside interference of shards. He is being shaped into something he could never have been on his own. Dalinars leadership role in Alethkar was due in part to Elhokars ineptitude, and he spent the entirety of that relationship struggling with the fact that if he didn't act dishonorably and take some modicum of control, they would fail. To me, this is Dalinar choosing what is right over what his people perceive as honorable, and there is always honor in choosing what is right. Similarly with his relationship with Navani, we see Dalinar struggling to overcome the Voren perception of what is honorable. To me, this is another instance of Dalinar growing to see that what is right is not what everyone he knows may perceive as honorable. This is where we are going to have to agree to disagree. The OB flashbacks show just how terrible he was when he was subscribed to Voren and Alethi interpretations in place of his own. I find it difficult to discount that every time he has grown as a person, whether you count it or not without the memory of Evi, it has happened when he chose to ignore the Voren/Alethi traditional views of honor in order to follow what he truly believes to be right. Theres also the parts where he reforms the Knights Radiant, stands toe to toe with a God and challenges him to defend what he loves and what he thinks is right, spends a grand portion of the books trying to unite the princes and later the entire world. Despite being born and raised to be the perfect Alethi, a Warlord, he has goodness somewhere deep within him. I understand that Dalinar is not redeemed, and potential completely irredeemable, but he is trying to be better. I do not believe he could've sworn his oaths without that growth and understanding. Dalinar has done terrible things, but he has also done incredible things. King, Bondsmith, Father, Husband, Leader, Radiant, Unity.

When shards are involved everything gets weird. If Dalinar hadn't grown when the memories of Evi returned, he would've fallen at the Battle of Thaylen Field. It's also important to remember he was being affected by Nergaoul. It doesn't excuse his actions, but it does make it more reasonable it took divine intervention to save him. He was certainly given a pass, and I don't think we've seen the end of Dalinars punishment. I don't see him being truly redeemed, but rather acting till his last breath trying to. I am 100% oversimplifying Big Daddy T. He is an incredibly complex and entertaining character. I shouldn't have mentioned him, but I was thinking of this conversation and Dalinars emotional response to it. It leaves room for him to fail, true, but there are 2 more oaths that will be even harder for him to swear. I don't think he will be capable of all 5, personally. Striving for honor does not necessarily mean achieving it, but I do respect his efforts to achieve it.

The honor I see in Dalinar is in his growth and responsibility. As a leader he will inevitably have to dirty his hands, but its how he uses that experience that makes him honorable. Where someone like Taravangian sees his inevitable accidental crimes as a reason to commit MORE crime, Dalinar uses that turmoil to steel himself to prevent the very same crimes. The Blackthorn is his youthful and brutal self a twisted and immature view of what honor is, but the Dalinar we see is a man coming to terms with the fact he was and will continue to be wrong if he continues as he is. While I don't think Dalinar gains any honor simply for regretting his actions, He does earn it by proving he can and will be better. He no longer hides from his weakness, he embraces it. His bond with the Stormfather and the Bondsmith Oaths are the journey of Dalinars redemption to me. All Radiants are broken, the Bondsmiths are no different. I completely agree, Kaladin is an honorable fellow, even if he isn't very nice lmao.

The Cognitive Realm and its inhabitants are known to be directly effected by the perception of those in the Physical Realm. Is someone like Thaidakar at risk of being warped by his cult religion on Scadrial? There's also the Heralds, who seem to have physical anchors unlike Thaidakar. Could this be why despite essentially being Shadows, they are losing their sanity rather then persisting through the Voren religions perception of them?

I probably should have elaborated on where I think Dalinar is headed. I don't think he will actually become a Vessel or Ascend, but rather that his personal journey is what allows him to effect any of the shards in question. It would actually be pretty cool if he managed to fix the shards for others to host. Dalinars journey has led him through several interpretations of what he considers Honorable, and by extension, he has a deep personal understanding of "honorable" intent. By having him thoroughly explore the concepts of Dominion, Devotion, and Ambition in both positive and negative aspects, he is being turned into something dangerous in the same way Wax is being shaped by Harmony. Dalinar also isn't aware of Ambition, Dominion, or Devotion, so when he reaches into the Spiritual Realm he would likely think he was only touching Honor, allowing him to accidentally start the process of healing the 3 properly busted up shards. I also don't believe Dalinar even assumes he CAN become a shard at this point. I do believe that the journey that Honor has led him on has steeled his intent to unite, which while Dalinar may interpret that as the people of Roshar, we know the shards have larger plans that have been around a very long time.

Very true, it's my personal canon, completely subject to change. Some of the other ideas I've been juggling are Mercy, or even a collision of Rayse referring to himself and Odium in the third person in that moment of volatile emotions.

I've always found that really strange. Odium, using the power of a shard, somehow managed to completely cram the entirety of 2 shards into the cognitive realm. There's the innate leakage of Investiture between realms, so maybe some of D&Ds investiture is being reabsorbed by the spiritual realm over time? Another oddity I remember is the Selish Shardpool talking to Raoden, implying there is some scrap of intellect applied to the Selish investiture, That's completely fair, I am definitely drawing some conclusions here. My theory for how Dalinar's story ends is not a particularly pleasant one, but it's difficult to overlook that several of his most important character developments do align with the intents of the currently deceased shards when hunting for the big Unity truth. Another very true point. Autonomy certainly isn't guaranteed to be the accomplice, but it seems overwhelmingly likely there are shards who want to further Odiums goal of self preservation for the very same goal themselves. Imagining that Autonomy has nothing to do with the death of D&D, perhaps the "We" in "We killed you" is referring to a different shard (Mercy). It could also be a strange moment of disassociation on Rayses part, the consciousness of Rayse and Odium colliding over the shock of seeing Dalinar achieve something he thought was impossible, whether it be all 4 or simply an alteration of the intent of a Shard.

Hello! This is my first proper post on the Forums, so feel free to roast me and my theories! I am going to include some Realmatics basics, just in case someone wanders on this post specifically looking for context. Ever since finishing Oathbringer, I have been obsessed with figuring out what Unity is, much like everyone else who read it. It's completely possible this has been talked about before, and if so, I'd appreciate a link to the thread! I believe that Dalinar is unintentionally reforming the 4 "deceased" shards: Dominion, Devotion, Honor, and Ambition. I built this theory on 3 distinct building blocks. Rayse's Freudian slip in the OB Finale, Harmony's suspicions that he is being kept in the dark, and what I consider to be an implied mechanic of the Spiritual Realm. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ First and foremost, my basic understanding of the realms and how distance correlates between them is based entirely on perception. The Physical Realm is the largest in terms of space, planets separated by vast swathes of space. The Cognitive Realm is significantly smaller, as things that originate in the Cognitive Realm are born from perception. As there is no consciousness or matter to perceive, space is not rendered and borders are determined by where in physical space those groups of physical consciousness exist. I.E, The Expanse of Vapors borders the Rosharan Shadesmar, therefore the planet of Scadrial has a direct route through physical space where no other consciousness exists. There are a few side effects that make that particular relationship REALLY spicy. The Spiritual Realm, existing outside of Time/Space, is even smaller. All that is contained within it exists in one singular point. When Dalinar opens the perpendicularity, he releases not only a flood of Honors investiture due to the physical location of Roshar, he began to reform the splinters and unclaimed powers within using the powers of an unrestricted Bondsmith. ** Dalinar has a distinct connection to all 4 shards in question. He is the King of Urithiru, a position he turmoiled over in Alethkar and ultimately resulted in the death of Elhokar and the occupation of his country, linking him to Dominion. In the face of the Voren clergy, he has defended his newfound Devotion despite a lifetime of Voren piety. He strives in all things to be closer to Honor, to embody it truly, by refusing to allow his failures to define him. His Ambition, abandoned in the name of honor to secure his brothers rule at the cost of everything the Blackthorn truly wanted. These factors make him an IDEAL Vessel, as* he is intimately familiar with all 4 intents and has proven mastery over their influence within him. *Edit* I don't think Dalinar is going to become a Vessel, poor choice of words. Rather, I think he is un-splintering them on accident. The combination of Honors seed to unite, his lack of awareness in regard to shards other then the Rosharan trio, and his relationship to those shards intents makes the perfect recipe for some wild Bondsmith evolution. ** Edit ** D&Ds Investiture is crammed into the Cognitive Realm on Sel by Rayse. However, I find it likely there are Spiritual remnant of those shards accessible by Dalinar. I also don't believe that Investiture will forever stay in the Cognitive Realm, due to the innate investiture leakage between realms that causes events like the filling of the Well Of Ascension. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Secondly, Rayse's response to Dalinar proclaiming himself Unity is WEIRD. WE killed you. The only instance of a shard being killed by a WE is Dominion & Devotion VS Odium & Autonomy.* *Edit*(If Mercy is a traitor, this could also be Ambition. That would leave Sels shards uninvolved and Unity would be Dalinars Intent while channeling Ambition and Honor together.) The death of Ambition is still somewhat mysterious, and mostly depends on Mercy's disposition. I'm liable to think Mercy is a traitor. We know Rayse went after Ambition specifically, defeating Dominion and Devotion in his hunt. If he was threatened by Ambitions intent, I believe it is a logical assumption that Ambition, by the nature of its shard, would inevitably try to bring the shards together to remake Adonalsium. This would be the ultimate expression of Ambition, as Adonalsium is the single most prolific being known to the Cosmere at this moment. Unity is not a DawnShard, nor a combination of a few shards, it is the combination of all 4 shards Odium has defeated combined with Dalinars impeccable Soul-engrained love of all things Honorable. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ And finally, Harmony believes the other shards are withholding information from him. This is the weakest of my branches, but I still believe it holds strong. A compound Shard is new to the Cosmere, but it must be assumed they have the potential to be wildly strong. However, the combination of shards can result in wildly different shards depending on the Intent of the Vessel. With Sazed, we found Harmony. With Dalinar, Unity. When Sazed, the relatively gentle and peaceful Terrisman is given divinity, it resulted in a relatively gentle and peaceful god. When Dalinar, the man whos sole purpose for several books was to unite the world in preparation for war on a mission from god, is given divinity, he will become something incredible. (Incredibly dangerous as well) The only thing MOST of the shards have to gain from withholding information from Sazed is their own power, so rather then assist Sazed in understanding his power, they ignore or disinform him while slowly working to ensure he cannot channel his power in an effective way. Dalinar would not have this redundant intent, making him a very scary force for someone like Rayse and Odium. ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ All in all, I'm fairly convinced Dalinar is reforging the shards splintered in the Spiritual Realm, likely to be taken up by others in his stead. ( I seriously predict Dalinar will die in the next book) By having a Connection with the core Intent of the 4 shards, and the power that comes in not knowing what a Bondsmith is capable of, Dalinar is accidentally fixing a massive chunk of Adonalsiums power after his naughty Kids splintered his shards.

All in all, Words of Radiance. There is something very special about the War Camps, I couldn't put WoK or WoR down as a result. Shadows of Self is an INCREDIBLY close second, as it provides a huge rabbit hole of Cosmere information and really lets the potential of the Metallic Arts shine through. And a shout out to Shadows For Silence for being the most entertaining short story.

Hello! I'm Neroz, a 21 year old analyst with a weakness for Fantasy, Video Games, and swords less like swords and more like massive heaps of iron. I've been a Wheel of Time fan since I was very little, and only started getting into other series around a year ago after working through ASOIAF. As of posting this, I've read everything Cosmere but White Sand Vol. 2/3 (waiting for me on my bookshelf) and the Prime books. I read the series in publication order, starting with Elantris and ending with RoW. I'm considering a second full read, but I'm currently working my through a few other blockbuster fantasy series at the moment. Currently neck deep in SA theory crafting, specifically a few key phrases in Oathbringer, with the Coppermind as my faithful companion!