slavagh

Yeah, this makes sense. I like this idea.

Hero of Ages spoiler: What do you mean she was close to witness the fight? Being on Roshar is close enough given that distance doesn't really matter for Shards. I assume the Stormfather has only a splinter of power. A large one, but still quite a limited amount. You can use a limited amount to Ascend, but not necessarily to become a shard. Other splinters are spren. Do you think that is it? There are no more large splinters of Honor left after the fight? How can he reunite splintered pieces that have gained sentience? It would be killing. That is why I am leaning toward something (other than what Stormfather is holding) that can be absorbed. Something like large chunks of power in the Cognitive or Physical realm that could have been left on Braize after the fight.

"In the top room" vision is strange to me. I don't think he recorded it the last. He is sane in that vision, which contradicts statements that he was raving at the later stages of his life. Some visions (like Recreance) might be recorded by Stormfather. Stormfather has the same voice as Honor. The only time we actually see Honor is in "the top room" vision. I agree that he was already wounded at some point before the final confrontation. But there might have been a second fight with the final blow with immediate death. “I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I…I fled". This quote is not about something prolonged. I agree. Recombining sentient Splinters is unlikely and a kind of evil thing to do. But do you think Stormfather is just "gatekeeping" the majority of Honor's power? There needs to be someplace where there is a lot of Honor's power that is not sentient, and Odium doesn't see it as a threat (the place that he controls). Otherwise, I don't see how the whole revival thing is possible. It is hard for me to grasp the concept of splintering something that has no location or real essence. You essentially splintering the idea. And it has ramifications everywhere in Cosmere. But all those WoBs pretty much confirm what you are saying.

1) Totally valid arguments. To be honest, I don’t understand Spiritual Realm that much. My interpretation is that location doesn’t have meaning in the Spiritual realm, because it is replaced with the connection between objects. But this connection manifests as a location in SR and PR. Odium somehow moved throughout Cosmere to kill Shards, without investing a lot. He probably created some kind of connection with the places he visited. And for Honor to fight Odium he might have established a connection to Braize, connecting his power to Braize, leaving a large portion with Stormfather on Roshar. The weird storm around Braize might be his remnants. Hero o Ages spoilers: 2) My other option is: Hero o Ages spoilers:

1) How did Honor die? “I saw His corpse, saw Him die when Odium murdered Him. And I…I fled” I know that the Shard’s death can be a protracted event. Probably Honor was injured for a long time. But this quote from Stormfather let me believe there was a final confrontation with Odium which resulted in his immediate death. According to The Sibling, it happened shortly after the Recreance. 2) Was Odium stuck on braze from around the Recreance to the Final desolation? I believe yes. There is a lack of evidence about his influence on Roshar up until the arrival of the Everstorm in Shadesmare. You would think there would be at least one secret society of Odium worshipers. It is logical for him to establish a base of support for himself to divide humans and prepare for the Final desolation. We know he was very successful in recruiting humans in the previous desolations. He had at least millennia after recreance to do something. But there is no evidence he did. Why he didn’t support the whole False Desolation thing? It wasn’t such a bad idea to try one desolation without the Fused? If BAM was able to make Reagals, so did he. He even could have protected her from the whole imprisonment thing. I think it is the evidence that he was stuck on Braize. Sja-anat said in her chapter that she lost connection with Odium and was slumbering for millennia. He could have done it intentionally. But why? Maybe he just couldn’t provide that connection. 3) So where did Honor die? Isn’t it logical to assume that the fight between Odium and Honor happened on the planet where Odium was stuck before and after the fight? I believe Honor died on Braize. That is where the final confrontation happened, and that is where his remnants are. Why is it relevant? It helps me to solve the Oathpact contradiction. 4) Oathpact contradiction. On one hand, there is a lot of evidence that the Oathpact is meaningless now. The narrative signals to the reader about that. This desolation is called Final, Raboniel says that this is the last time. The Everstorm can revive fused without sending them to braize. Now you can kill a herald. But most importantly, now you can kill the Fused. What is the point of Oathpact now? Why introduce all those hurdles if the endgame is the revival of the Oathpact? On the other hand, there is the foreshadowing of the revival of the Oath pact in The Rhythm of War. Jasnah talks about it with Ash, Dalinal talks about it with Stormfather after a confrontation with Nale, and most importantly Ishar says he can revive it. It was a moment of clarity, and he is the creator of the Oathpact. In The Stormlight 5 prologue, we are introduced to the concept of replacing a Herald. It seems like a hint towards the revival of the Oathpact, but with the new Heralds. 5) Stormlight 5 finale prediction. I think the outcome of the battle of champions is Odium free of Honor’s restrictions. Which is pure speculation. But there are a lot of threads about this topic. This leaves good guys in a very bad position. I see only one option for them: to revive Honor. For that, they will need to go to Braize. How do you go to Braize? Odium is probably will stop you from doing that easily. Here is where the Oathpact comes in handy. Heroes will revive the Oathpact (mostly new members) purely to have a passage on Braize to retrieve the remnants of Honor. After that, they can broker a deal with Odium from a stronger position.

Love it. It is a very interesting direction for the progression of their bond.

You are probably right. Shard can't be simply defined and can encompass many different aspects at once.

Different interpretations mean inherent conflict between them. Maybe the Shard has conflict within

Windrunners represent at least part of Honor. Honor has a lot of interpretations. Honor is bigger than just following oaths. I gravitate toward windrunners interpretation rather than skybreackers. That is just my subjective preference.

Windrunners are close to Honor. Windrunner's motto is "Protect those who cannot protect themselves". Honor wants to help those who suffer. Honor wants to help Taln. That is my train of thought.

All good. No problem at all It was quite difficult to defend this theory. In a good way. Never expected such a challenging detailed analysis, participation, and feedback. Really appreciate your time.

Sorry to make this discussion less enjoyable for you. I really appreciate your participation and don't have any ill feelings toward you. This theory is based on a lot of assumptions and my personal preferences. I enjoyed hearing fierce opposition because it helps me to look at those books from different angles. But you are right, we are running circles by now.

Yes, you did: Yes, I see the comment now. Do you think it is the only thing that is needed? Or a part of the solution? Why the Heralds rejected such a simple solution to their problems? How can you interpret this comment as weakening the Shard? They are even referred to as separate entities in the WoB. Technically yes, probably means that Nightblood just ate a small part of the Shard. Why did Nightblood kill particularly the Vessel? If they are the one, why there is a conflict with intent in the first place? If they become the one, doesn't it mean there should be no conflict in the first place? I don't know how either of those Shards died. The Ones that we saw in books died through the Vessel with power intact. Splintering is usually done after the Vessel is dead. Don't think that taking a chunk of the power that can be reclaimed can be called splintering. I have an assumption that the mind of the Shard connected to Taln is susceptible to torture. You don't buy that. That is fair. But you can't prove my assumption is wrong by your own assumption that shards mind is too strong. Again, all Stormfather says is unreliable. I don't buy the 'blinded to intent argument'. It is cherry-picking. You can use it whenever it suits your argument. I can use the same argument too. When Honor connected to Taln he was not stupid, but 'blinded' to intent'. We have no proof heralds were mad before leaving the Oathpact. What WoB contradicts? Oathpact protected them while they were connected. There is no proof voidspren are bound by Oathpact. BAM used them. How Moash created Connection with Odium in the first place if Honor's restrictions forbade him from interactions with humans? If Kaladin wanted, he could take any power from Odium. He used Moash because Kaladin didn't give permission.(no harm as opposed to no interaction argument) Agree with Trill comment. Why he didn't form a connection with singers through Trill and then provide them with forms of Power?

I think a more helpful comment from Hoid would be 'Use the Breaths or you'll lose your mind', don't you think? 'There are hints in the book about how Hoid avoided a similar fate' hardly counts as confirmation. Maybe I missed the correct quote? Perception. The power has an intent which Rayse tried to change. The same way your self-perception affects your healing 'Odium wasn't simply the mind that controlled the power: the Vessel. Nor was he merely the power alone: the Shard. He was both, and at times it seemed the power had desires that were counter to the purposes of the Vessel.' - Sja-Anat interlude. This doesn't scream to me as they are one entity. Can you hurt the power? Every time we saw Shard being hurt, it was always a Vessel problem. The power is unscathed for the next wielder to use. Partially still human with a lot of human weaknesses. If the Vessel is in control, why does the power always control the Vessel in the end? 11 is not that much better than 10. For him entering the Oathpact meant soon death. His whole goal was to buy time, which he helped Taln to do. Back then you argued the shard is so smart that it sees all possibilities. And you think Honoir couldn't predict one of the Heralds would yield with time? Why do you think cycles of Desolation weren't his plan all along? Do you take Stormfather words as facts? Gavilar prologue spoilers: What was the point of leaving the Oathpact? To stop the pain. They haven't felt Taln's pain since they left the Oathpact, otherwise, what was the point of leaving? So that part of the Connection is most likely severed. Don't know where you see the proof of magical madness in the prelude. For me, it is just a normal reaction after so many years of torture. My original argument was that if they hadn't left Taln, they would still be broken, but not magically mad. This quote? He can't harm people, but what stops him from interacting with willing participants? Why would a singer refuse the form of power? You said he couldn't make the connection with Kaladin, but you ignored that he easily made the new connection with Moash.

Still don't see how breaths can help you stay sane. If you don't use them, you'll just forget a bunch of things. Hoid is not a usual CS. Holding a dawnshard may have helped him If they are not separate entities, how can Raise fight with Odium's intent? The conflict between two separate entities makes it possible. We fundamentally disagree on Shard and vessel relationships. I think the vessel is the only vulnerable part of the shard. And if it is not 'human', it maintains some humanity with a lot of its vulnerabilities. I already explained that stupid and noble is often the same. He knew the consequences but did it regardless. When the 10 heralds worked together the plan was working. He wouldn't help 10 minds that much. Plus the risk of splintering. When other Heralds left, there was no one else to help Taln, hence the emotional and noble decision to help Taln The whole Roshar and Cosmere was one word from Dalinar to be exposed to Odium unchained. Renarin saw this future as a done deal. It is not a good plan, it is a huge gamble at best. His whole strategy was to delay and hope somebody will solve it in the future. Again, in my theory, Taln losing his connection to other heralds made him vulnerable to usual CS madness. They all stayed sane until they all were connected and shared pain. It doesn't matter if Taln stayed loyal if the other heralds did not. He had Unmade for connection. It doesn't explain why he didn't give forms of power to singers, just like BAM. He could have made connections to any singer. Why it is in conflict? That is too literal an interpretation of the WoB.