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Fabrials and Surgebinders theory


Satsuoni

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First of all, sorry if this topic was already covered, but I could not find a thread to post it in, so I am making a new one.

Ok, what follows is a summary of known facts and my commonsense interpretations of them.

First, about surgebinders. These are people that have an ability to utilize stormlight in some ways. Apparently, these abilities come when one forms the Nahel bond with a Spren. It is unknown if any person can form a bond or if this is an inborn condition. Also unknown if whether any Spren can form bond or not. My theory is that Spren are first attracted and then bonded by their aspect. That is, I.e , honorspren are attracted to honor, and the bond is reinforced by doing something honorable, or by swearing and upholding an oath. This is why Kaladin got stronger when he swore the second oath. That does not to be a good thing, as in case of Szeth the oath seems to be "obey all orders of your master". Also, the symbolheads (from here on referred to as truthspren) appear to form bonds when given a personal truth. So far, the only Spren shown with the ability to form bond are those attracted to some positive personality trait, but I wonder if other Spren can also be bonded with. If my theory holds, however, binding the deathspren would require dying. Repeatedly. Ahem.

Now, the bond works both ways. To Spren, it gives humanity, possibly sentience, if it does not have one before. Human, on the other hand, gains some of the abilities of the Spren. This is also my speculation, but it seems that Spren draw sustenance, and possibly essence, from Stormlight. That is why there are none visible in Shinovar, just as I think ( not confirmed) that you can not charge a sphere there. So, the human gains ability to draw in stormlight, or manipulate it, and also gains ability specific to the bound Spren, which is related to the Spren aspect. The honorspren, for example, binds stuff, so it's abilities are to strengthen or redirect the bonds , either in material or gravity bonds. The truthspren give ability to change truth of an object, transforming it, and also give you perception of underlying truth (cognitive realm). Also, the personalities in the table probably reflect the kind of Spren bound ( not sure).

The Fabrials, as inferred from the Navani's notes, are made by capturing Spren in a gem, and then feeding it stormlight and directing it's powers in some way. That would imply that one can make more kinds of fabrial than there can be Surgebinders(not any Spren can be bound to human) but that the control and strength is usually less. I also think that glyphs originally served as circuit boards for fibrils, helping to direct the power.

Now, about voidbinding. This is pure speculation on my part, but it would seem that the black light in a sphere was void, as opposed to the surge ( stormlight), and that it was taken from the parshendi somehow. So maybe there exists a complementing set of abilities that utilizes void as a power source. It is possible that it is associated with Spren with opposite personalities ( the liesspren?) or some other things entirely. It also seem obvious that stormlight comes from Honor, and void from Odium. Also, I think that part of the voidbinding powers was creation of rock monsters/ night essences.

So, what do you think?

P.S. A noob here. Please be gentle.

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First of all, sorry if this topic was already covered, but I could not find a thread to post it in, so I am making a new one.

Ok, what follows is a summary of known facts and my commonsense interpretations of them.

First, about surgebinders. These are people that have an ability to utilize stormlight in some ways. Apparently, these abilities come when one forms the Nahel bond with a Spren. It is unknown if any person can form a bond or if this is an inborn condition. Also unknown if whether any Spren can form bond or not. My theory is that Spren are first attracted and then bonded by their aspect. That is, I.e , honorspren are attracted to honor, and the bond is reinforced by doing something honorable, or by swearing and upholding an oath. This is why Kaladin got stronger when he swore the second oath. That does not to be a good thing, as in case of Szeth the oath seems to be "obey all orders of your master". Also, the symbolheads (from here on referred to as truthspren) appear to form bonds when given a personal truth. So far, the only Spren shown with the ability to form bond are those attracted to some positive personality trait, but I wonder if other Spren can also be bonded with. If my theory holds, however, binding the deathspren would require dying. Repeatedly. Ahem.

Now, the bond works both ways. To Spren, it gives humanity, possibly sentience, if it does not have one before. Human, on the other hand, gains some of the abilities of the Spren. This is also my speculation, but it seems that Spren draw sustenance, and possibly essence, from Stormlight. That is why there are none visible in Shinovar, just as I think ( not confirmed) that you can not charge a sphere there. So, the human gains ability to draw in stormlight, or manipulate it, and also gains ability specific to the bound Spren, which is related to the Spren aspect. The honorspren, for example, binds stuff, so it's abilities are to strengthen or redirect the bonds , either in material or gravity bonds. The truthspren give ability to change truth of an object, transforming it, and also give you perception of underlying truth (cognitive realm). Also, the personalities in the table probably reflect the kind of Spren bound ( not sure).

The Fabrials, as inferred from the Navani's notes, are made by capturing Spren in a gem, and then feeding it stormlight and directing it's powers in some way. That would imply that one can make more kinds of fabrial than there can be Surgebinders(not any Spren can be bound to human) but that the control and strength is usually less. I also think that glyphs originally served as circuit boards for fibrils, helping to direct the power.

Now, about voidbinding. This is pure speculation on my part, but it would seem that the black light in a sphere was void, as opposed to the surge ( stormlight), and that it was taken from the parshendi somehow. So maybe there exists a complementing set of abilities that utilizes void as a power source. It is possible that it is associated with Spren with opposite personalities ( the liesspren?) or some other things entirely. It also seem obvious that stormlight comes from Honor, and void from Odium. Also, I think that part of the voidbinding powers was creation of rock monsters/ night essences.

So, what do you think?

P.S. A noob here. Please be gentle.

Reasonable speculation for the most part. It would be better with quotes and evidence.

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Hm.. Ok. Could you specify which parts need clarification/quotes?

Nahel bond is from the Dalinar's vision before last, as well as information about honorspren preferences and the existence of other bound spren.

Navani's note book is from Coppermind wiki, etc...

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I love your ideas, partially because they match with mine a lot ;)

And what happyman says about quotes is true. Any theory is better when you have quotes right there, so that people can read the exact words you drew conculsions from, and draw similar conclusions.( Sort of like how Jasnah convinced Shallan that the Parshmen are Voidbringers by showing her all of the quotes. )

But I agree with pretty much all of your points.

In fact, I like this summarizing so much, that I am willing to espouse it.

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This is a very well thought out theory. I'm wondering what other sorts of Spren will be connected to powers. We know of Truth and Honor so far, attracted to people who are truthful (though this is questionable considering Shallan) and honorable. Also, Jasnah seems to know about the Symbolheads, however, she and Shallan do not seem to have exactly the same powers. Are the Spren that Jasnah interacts with actually slightly different? Knowledgespren maybe, similar in appearance and function, but attracted to a different attribute. Maybe Jasnah has to share a piece of knowledge instead of say something true (which seems like basically the same thing, and the distinction being so small is why they can both be called Soulcasters - just two varieties of Soulcaster). Maybe I'm reaching a bit here. I wonder if there are kinds of spren that are related to ideals or human attributes like Hopespren, Compassionspren, or Determinationspren, that are also usually mistaken for other kinds of spren, the way Honorspren are mistaken for windspren?

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To Zas678 - Thank you! I must learn how to espouse theories.. and how to use quotes. Since I only have the ebook, I cannot tell the page numbers, sorry.

To LightReader:

Regarding the truthspren, the following quote:

You need to tell me something true, it replied. The more true, the stronger our bond.

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought. I’m sure that’s a truth.

That’s not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?

“What am I?” Shallan whispered. “Truthfully?” It was a day for confrontation. She felt strangely strong, steady. Time to speak it. “I’m a murderer. I killed my father.”

suggest that they want, and so may be drawn to personal, hidden truths, in other word, secrets, not truthfulness per se. It may be that all spren need something personal to form a bond. It is easier in case of honor -honor is originally a very personal thing. But truth is diluted each time somebody else learns it. That may explain why there were several of the truthspren in Palaneum, given what the king is hiding there.

I think that the essences, and the corresponding attributes from Ars Arcanum are related to surgebinders and corresponding spren, although not directly. For example, in such case Shallan would be "creative/honest", but honestly is only required towards the spren, Kaladin would be a windwalker (Zephyr), associated with "protecting/leading", which he does, but that are just qualities associated with honorable man, etc. Maybe Jasnah is "learned/giving" then, as you suggest. Hm. That is also related to the kind of soulcasting they specify in : the only thing Shallan has soulcast was blood, and the first thing we saw Jasnah soulcast was smoke. Maybe that was a hint.

Also, there was another kind of surgebinder mentioned:

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm. Her hair was pulled back into a bun. She raised a hand and touched his forehead.

Ice washed across him. Suddenly, his pain was gone.

The woman reached out and touched Taffa. The flesh on her arm regrew in an eyeblink; the torn muscle remained where it was, but other flesh just grew where the chunks had been torn out. The skin knitted up over it without flaw, and the female Shardbearer wiped away the blood and torn flesh with a white cloth.

and a little lower

“I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded,” the woman said, glancing at the village.

If my essence association is correct, that would be "loving/healing", so a Lovespren, maybe? No idea what others are though.

And yes, probably there other spren that become non-sentient without bond. Probably the spren that are not connected to Shadesmar (Cognitive realm), but that is just speculation rising from the name.

Edited by Satsuoni
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To Zas678 - Thank you! I must learn how to espouse theories.. and how to use quotes. Since I only have the ebook, I cannot tell the page numbers, sorry.

That post was much better. You've got a lot of good ideas. They're just a little bit spread out. I would suggest focusing on the ideas you think are most important, and finding how they relate to others. For instance, the idea that Spren are attracted to attributes in people seems extremely likely---and it's been floated a lot in various places in the forums, but not as a single coherent theory. Just focusing on that, for instance, would let you know which quotes are most relevant. Then you pull in the other ideas as needed to support it.

On the whole, though, I like what you're doing, generally agree with it, and I'm glad you're trying to put this Nahel bond stuff together. Good luck.

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Ok, I was looking at the chart today. I could not find anything more than fragmentary descriptions of it, so I have assigned the stones by their colors as well as I could: on this chart. Sorry about readability, I am bad at this kind of thing. Corrections welcome!

Also, after rereading this:

Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand. The woman had light tan eyes that almost seemed to glow in the night, and she wore no helm. Her hair was pulled back into a bun. She raised a hand and touched his forehead.
The female Shardbearer stood; her armor glowed with an even amber light. She smiled and turned to the side, a Shardblade forming from mist into her hand as she rushed to aid her companion.

as well as this parts:

“…the Order of the Stonewards, my lord,” the still-mounted scout was saying. “And a large number of Windrunners. All on foot.”
As they drew closer, Dalinar could see that their Plate was unpainted, but it glowed either blue or amber at the joints and across glyphs at the front, as with other Radiants he’d seen in his visions.

I retract the theory that Regrowth was related to love/healing (diamond). As shown on my chart, the woman is most likely a Stoneward, and the color of her armor suggests either Topaz or Heliodor (not sure about Topaz color, btw, but the associated Element is Stone, so..).

Also, sorry about spreading out. That is a single theory in my head, but it is really hard to write down without going off the tangent. It has ever been so for me. Still, I think the above is relevant. Also relevant : spren names/ virtues (pure guesswork!), in order of Ars Arcanum Essences: Honrspren, Knowledgespren, Braveryspren, Lovespren, Justicespren, Truthspren, Wisdomspren, Decisivenessspren, Trustspren, Faithspren. Heh.

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  • 2 months later...

Nice work Ookla!

I've been wondering about some of the same things and would like to contribute some observations.

There is another thread that is covering some overlapping territory here.

I think that fabrials can replicate surgebinding abilities because there are soulcasters that do what Jasnah and Shallan can do. Jasnah says (chapter 72):

Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe.

I agree with your assessment that the woman in the Midnight Essence vision is a Stoneward and the man is a Windrunner based on the armor glow power and the means of the man's arrival.

What powers are manifest here?

  1. The radiants can tell from far away that the Midnight Essences are attacking (call it a detect voidish ability until we know more)
  2. They communicate quickly across great distances (a number of them are arriving to fight the Midnight Essences, from (Chapter 19)
    ... cities all across Alethela
    , but of course they could use instantaneous travel to communicate)
  3. the Windrunner man flies to where Dalinar is (presumably using pressure and gravity as we've seen with Szeth)
  4. Instantaneous travel (He is seen flying, lands and shakes the earth, she just shows up.)
  5. Regrowth (with a fabrial)
  6. The Windrunner uses flies to help others (the Stoneward does not fly away, she runs, presumably she can't fly like the Windrunner, which would be faster)

We know that the regrowth is done with the fabrial and the flying is an inherent power of the Windrunners. Why wouldn't the Stoneward arrive before the Windrunner? Maybe she uses the Windrunner as an anchor. I don't know if Regrowth is a surgebinding ability because it is done with a fabrial, but it seems possible. Likewise, I don't know if the "detect voidish" and the "travel" ability are surgebinding abilities or only done with fabrials. I think we don't know whether the healing is an inherent ability of Stonewards.

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Nice work Ookla!

I've been wondering about some of the same things and would like to contribute some observations.

There is another thread that is covering some overlapping territory here.

I think that fabrials can replicate surgebinding abilities because there are soulcasters that do what Jasnah and Shallan can do. Jasnah says (chapter 72):

I agree with your assessment that the woman in the Midnight Essence vision is a Stoneward and the man is a Windrunner based on the armor glow power and the means of the man's arrival.

What powers are manifest here?

  1. The radiants can tell from far away that the Midnight Essences are attacking (call it a detect voidish ability until we know more)
  2. They communicate quickly across great distances (a number of them are arriving to fight the Midnight Essences, from (Chapter 19) , but of course they could use instantaneous travel to communicate)
  3. the Windrunner man flies to where Dalinar is (presumably using pressure and gravity as we've seen with Szeth)
  4. Instantaneous travel (He is seen flying, lands and shakes the earth, she just shows up.)
  5. Regrowth (with a fabrial)
  6. The Windrunner uses flies to help others (the Stoneward does not fly away, she runs, presumably she can't fly like the Windrunner, which would be faster)

We know that the regrowth is done with the fabrial and the flying is an inherent power of the Windrunners. Why wouldn't the Stoneward arrive before the Windrunner? Maybe she uses the Windrunner as an anchor. I don't know if Regrowth is a surgebinding ability because it is done with a fabrial, but it seems possible. Likewise, I don't know if the "detect voidish" and the "travel" ability are surgebinding abilities or only done with fabrials. I think we don't know whether the healing is an inherent ability of Stonewards.

Um, Ookla is a common name right now. Please use Satsuoni.

Anyways, in response to your notes: I am not sure they can detect void, although that is possible. Maybe they just have some means of long- distance communication, like a bat signal. Regrowth may have been a fabrial, but may have been not, the device being used just to hold Stormlight( that is what I think). I also think (pure speculation) , that Stonewards travel through stone, fast but not necessary instantly. The windrunners just bind themselves to the direction and fly. I have updated the chart on my PC, but have not uploaded it, so this one is slightly incorrect.

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Good points, Satsuoni. I enjoy encountering varying points of view because, I assume so much that I am not aware of assuming (if that makes any sense). I will try to offer a clearer exposition.

One minor point that I would like to offer is that Brandon seems to refer to the abilities with certain names that I have also seen used elsewhere on this site. For communication, I have found that it can be more useful to use a less descriptive term that more common. Specifically, with reference to the abilities, this quote from the Brandonthology (originally, presumably from an interview) gives us some names which I will use hereafter.

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in KINGS? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these--though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

You can obviously do whatever you want, but I will use (and recommend) Brandon's terms: Transformation, Travel, Regrowth, Pressure and Gravity.

What are the list of abilities of surgebinders and Radiants? The following have strong evidence: Transformation, Pressure and Gravity.

Some abilities seem to be general in that we know Kaladin to be a Windrunner with Pressure and Gravity as his two surgebinding abilities, but he still has other things that he can do with stormlight. The way his wounds heal seems to have nothing to do with either pressure or gravity. His enhanced speed under the influence of stormlight could be through the unconscious use of Pressure and Gravity, so I can't tell yet whether it is general or specific. Presumably all surgebinders benefit from general abilities, which I see as Healing, maybe speed and others that we don't know yet.

Abilities can be accessed through one or more of general surgebinding (Healing), exclusive surgebinding (Gravity, Pressure, Transformation/Soulcasting), fabrials (Transformation/Soulcasting, Heating, Proximity of living creatures, pain reduction, fast communication across distances(spanreeds, using a form of telekineses)) and spren (Syl tells Kaladin that there are many more humans nearby as they approach the Shattered plains). Regrowth is clearly an ability, but it is not clear to me whether it can be done by exclusive surgebinding, fabrials or both.

The argument for Travel:

  1. The Stoneward who appears in the Midnight Essence vision that we've discussed.
  2. The Radiants in cities around Alethela responding to incidents in Natanatan (and presumably the entire continent) as we've discussed.
  3. Chapter 59 Teft and Kaladin
    "...You've told me that Radiants could fly and walk on walls."
    Teft nodded, "They sure could. And make stone melt by looking at it. And move great distances in a single heartbeat. And command the sunlight. And -"
  4. Dalinar's story from the Way of Kings had Nohadon's relatives traveling quickly.
  5. One of the chapter heading quotes has someone traveling from kingdom to kingdom in a single day and complaining about the tariffs the Radiants charged.

I don't know whether Travel (teleportation?) is via exclusive surgebinding, fabrial or both, but I guess it is at least an exclusive surgebinding ability.

Other possible abilities:

  1. Detect voidish (needed for Radiants to be able to protect the whole continent from locations in Alethela)
  2. Stonetravel (specific to Stonewards, your proposal)
  3. Burning (dustbringers?)
  4. Molecular separation explosions (dustbringers?)
  5. Strength (as Dalinar exhibited versus the Chasmfiend)

It seems that there are ten exclusive surgebinding abilities, each shared by two Radiant orders. You and discipleofhoid in the other thread seem to both be working on figuring them out in different ways.

Regrowth is definitely performed by the Stoneward, and I agree it "should" be an exclusive surgebinding ability, but it intuitively seems like it should belong to the 4 Vev Diamond Loving/Healing order and one adjacent. Thus I think the Stoneward is using the described fabrial to do it.

I hope that this too-long post helps and will be corrected and enhanced.

Ciao

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Good points, Satsuoni. I enjoy encountering varying points of view because, I assume so much that I am not aware of assuming (if that makes any sense). I will try to offer a clearer exposition.

You can obviously do whatever you want, but I will use (and recommend) Brandon's terms: Transformation, Travel, Regrowth, Pressure and Gravity.

What are the list of abilities of surgebinders and Radiants? The following have strong evidence: Transformation, Pressure and Gravity.

Well, yes. I didn't know about pressure when I started this thread, so I called it Adhesion. Also, there are in-world names, such as Soulcasting for Transformation.

Some abilities seem to be general in that we know Kaladin to be a Windrunner with Pressure and Gravity as his two surgebinding abilities, but he still has other things that he can do with stormlight. The way his wounds heal seems to have nothing to do with either pressure or gravity. His enhanced speed under the influence of stormlight could be through the unconscious use of Pressure and Gravity, so I can't tell yet whether it is general or specific. Presumably all surgebinders benefit from general abilities, which I see as Healing, maybe speed and others that we don't know yet.

Increased strength and healing speed seem to be just side effects of having Stormlight in the body, unrelated to the Surgebinding per se. So it is only available to those KR that can infuse -take the Stormlight inside themselves, rather than having it in gems. Whether all KR can do it is debatable (for Soulcasting the type of the gem seems important, so maybe they can't infuse properly). Also, I don't think it is Healing.

Abilities can be accessed through one or more of general surgebinding (Healing), exclusive surgebinding (Gravity, Pressure, Transformation/Soulcasting), fabrials (Transformation/Soulcasting, Heating, Proximity of living creatures, pain reduction, fast communication across distances(spanreeds, using a form of telekineses)) and spren (Syl tells Kaladin that there are many more humans nearby as they approach the Shattered plains). Regrowth is clearly an ability, but it is not clear to me whether it can be done by exclusive surgebinding, fabrials or both.

I am sure I wrote this in the OP, but it was said that originally fabrials were ways to emulate KR Surgebinding, but then the abilities were expanded. So it is possible to create fabrial for each Surgebinding ability, but not everything that fabrials can do can be replicate dthrough Surgebinding.

The argument for Travel:

<snip>

I don't know whether Travel (teleportation?) is via exclusive surgebinding, fabrial or both, but I guess it is at least an exclusive surgebinding ability.

Other possible abilities:

  1. Detect voidish (needed for Radiants to be able to protect the whole continent from locations in Alethela)
  2. Stonetravel (specific to Stonewards, your proposal)
  3. Burning (dustbringers?)
  4. Molecular separation explosions (dustbringers?)
  5. Strength (as Dalinar exhibited versus the Chasmfiend)

It seems that there are ten exclusive surgebinding abilities, each shared by two Radiant orders. You and discipleofhoid in the other thread seem to both be working on figuring them out in different ways.

Regrowth is definitely performed by the Stoneward, and I agree it "should" be an exclusive surgebinding ability, but it intuitively seems like it should belong to the 4 Vev Diamond Loving/Healing order and one adjacent. Thus I think the Stoneward is using the described fabrial to do it.

Well, I thought so also, but the stones in the fabrial-like device are wrong, and also, love/healing describes, IMO, qualities necessary to gain access to abilities rather than abilities themselves. I mean, for Kaladin, it is protecting/leading (honor, nobility), but his abilities are Gravity and Pressure. The gemstones, on the other hand were standing for flesh and bone, so maybe it was indicative. I still think that was not a fabrial, more like a gem holder, like Jasnah's soulcaster, but I may be wrong.

And yes, there are 10. They are on the Surgebinding chart. 10 orders, 10 abilities.

And I think Jasnah is a Dustbringer, but that is just IMO related to the fact that she transforms stuff into smoke and fire. I am probably wrong, of course.

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I don't think dalinar was necessarily demonstrating a particular ability just accesses the plates functions abit more, plate turns silver instead of slate grey like the guy in the heralds bit so I think it was the plate doing the work not him using an ability if u know what I mean

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I don't think dalinar was necessarily demonstrating a particular ability just accesses the plates functions abit more, plate turns silver instead of slate grey like the guy in the heralds bit so I think it was the plate doing the work not him using an ability if u know what I mean

Right, forgot about that part. Yes, I agree that he probably just synced with his plate better. Of course, that just might mean KR potential. There are, I believe, several threads dedicated to discussing this.

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  • 2 years later...

There's one thing that you guys haven't covered yet that I think might be important. Kaladin is a Surgebinder, but when he said the first words of...isn't it the First Ideal or something like that?, they later said that it was working more powerfully for him. I think that as Dalinar is only starting to become a...well, sort of a better person, I forget which order I thought he might eventually end up as, but if he has just started, might he not have ANY of the abilities except for, perhaps, the proposed connection with his Shardplate?

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Like the post a lot. I thought it was very organized even in blob form (no disrespect).

I'm curious though, what is all the evidence that spren gain human characteristics? We have Syl, but I thought we had a WoB that she was more of an outlier. There is a certain Steelhunt chapter that talks about a spren whose conversation and complaining might contradict this. 

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Boy, this sure bring me back :) My first ever thread starting with my first ever post... I didn't know how to quote yet, and I think the interview database didn't have Brandon interviews in it at the time.

Hmm...

We have learned quite a bit since then, but the main points still stand... Though a Deathspren probably cannot be bound. But then, maybe the Parshendi have a form associated with them :)

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