Knight Radiant Orders, Powers, and other info gathered

[discipleofhoid]

So here is my composition of the current information that we have on the knights radiant. Several things on this chart are commonly espoused theories. My guesses have ?'s on both ends. Let me know if you have seen anything cannon that directly contradicts anything on this chart. You can let me know if you think I am an idiot for other reasons to, but I probably wont change the chart for that. I have pulled the information here from several weeks of reading on the forums, in the Brandonothology and looking in the book. I will post the sources for most of the info once I hunt them back down.

Updated Doc

Edit-- So I was rereading this and realized it might sound a bit confrontational. That was not my intent - if you have any objections to things I have placed on the chart please post them so they can be discussed.

Edited September 8, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Jaconis]

I've been looking through the brandonthology, but haven't found any mention of the strong or weak atomic force, nor the electromagnetic force. Can you post the quote or where you found it?

[discipleofhoid]

I've been looking through the brandonthology, but haven't found any mention of the strong or weak atomic force, nor the electromagnetic force. Can you post the quote or where you found it?

Sure, It is below. I just press Ctrl-F and then search for the term I want to find in the Brandonothology. There is so much there it can be impossible to look through by hand. I am not sure how much of these force will acctualy be in the series since it appears that the transformation magic got lumped in with surge binding, instead of being separate the way this quote suggests. But as we do have this quote I included them for now.

Will The Way of Kings series be based on one of the worlds and magic systems you have already created or are you inventing a totally new one for this series?

It will be new. There are going to be a lot of different types of magic in the world (I see there's a question below asking about that, so I'll answer more there.) But there will be two main magic systems for the first book. The first will deal with the manipulation of fundamental forces. (Gravity, Strong/weak atomic forces, Electromagnetic force, that sort of thing.) The second will be a transformation based magic system, whereby people can transform objects into one of the world's ten elements.

[Mad_Scientist]

One thing to note about that Brandon quote is that it seems a bit outdated. He mentions two main magic systems there, and from the descriptions it seems clear that one is Surgebinding and one is Soulcasting.

But in current Way of Kings, Soulcasting is actually a part of of Surgebinding (Brandon has confirmed this) and not a separate magic system. There are also other magic systems such as the Old Magic and Voidbinding that we don't know much about. It seems the "two main magic systems" thing is no longer entirely valid, at least as far as classification goes.

It also seems to me that when he was commenting on the magic system that manipulates "fundamental forces" he was giving general examples of the type of thing it does rather than specifically outlining its powers. All things considered, while it's possible that there may be a form of Surgebinding that can manipulate atomic forces, I wouldn't be too surprised if there isn't.

[discipleofhoid]

I have been thinking the same thing as I have been looking through the last few interviews. I have updated the document to only list the atomic forces as remote possibilities(note the ? marks). I think the electromagnetic power fits well with Jasnah's lightning bolt though so I am leaving it as more solid for now.

[Chaos]

I have been thinking the same thing as I have been looking through the last few interviews. I have updated the document to only list the atomic forces as remote possibilities(note the ? marks). I think the electromagnetic power fits well with Jasnah's lightning bolt though so I am leaving it as more solid for now.

I like that idea that Jasnah's second Surge is Electromagnetism. That, combined with Soulcasting, would surely be a potent combination.

For your table, I would recommend removing the label "Surgebinding." It's kind of implied that these are Surges

EDIT: And I am fairly certain Soulcasters are not themselves an order of Radiants, given that Jasnah said there were two orders with natural Soulcasting ability. If it was just one order, she would have said that.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Chaos

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

However, if you consider that they're just talking about WoK here, it could still be partially accurate, since the two systems that get the most screentime in this book are Windrunning and Soulcasting. These could be considered to meet his description.

[discipleofhoid]

I removed the Surgebinding label. It was a relic from when we weren't sure if Soulcasting was one of the surges or a separate magic.

For now I am leaving Soulcasters as a possibility. It just sounds to much like the other order names for me to accept that as a coincidence. Keep in mind that when Jasnah refers to soulcaster abilities she is talking about the current group of people known as Soulcasters. That does not preclude that name having been stolen from a Radiant order. In fact this quote suggests that:

Jasnah held up a hand. “These are a type of spren, Shallan. They are related to what you do.” She tapped the desk softly. “Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe. I had assumed that you… But no, that obviously wouldn’t make sense. I see now.”

Also if the order Jasnah belonged to was called Soulcasters it might explain her initial confusion at Shalan having different abilities. Shalan would be part of an order that was not called soulcasters but that had the ability to do what through time has come to be called soulcasting.

I am not set on this concept but as it is a possible explanation, barring evidence to the contrary I will leave soulcasters as a possible Radiant Order for now. Everything in ?'s is highly speculative anyways.

Edited September 7, 2011 by discipleofhoid

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

My inclination is that the Order associated with Chach, whose Body Focus is listed as "the Soul", is the Order that would primarily be known as Soulcasters.

[discipleofhoid]

My inclination is that the Order associated with Chach, whose Body Focus is listed as "the Soul", is the Order that would primarily be known as Soulcasters.

My only problem with that is that from my understanding of the way the orders work that order would not have had what in WoK times is considered soulcasting - I suppose it is possible that through the clouds of time the names got mixed up but it is a little more of a stretch for me then the "oh look we can do what the soulcasters order used to be able to do with this fabrial, we should call the people who use these soulcasters."

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Why wouldn't Chach have Soulcasting? It makes as much sense as anything else, if not moreso.

Both Orders with the Transformation Surge have the power of Soulcasting (thus both Jasnah and Shallan, who are most likely of different Orders, are able to do roughly the same thing), it would make more sense that they would take the name directly from the power, rather than a specific Order.

But my earlier point is that if it comes from any Order, it's probably that one.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Silus - Shard of Flame

[discipleofhoid]

Why wouldn't Chach have Soulcasting? It makes as much sense as anything else, if not moreso.

So somehow I missed the other thread where you were discussing which orders soulcasting belonged to. Having read that your stance makes alot more sense. You could be right - it just depends on the accuracy of the chart at the back of Way of Kings - I suspect that Book 2 will clarify alot of this.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

It'll probably clear up some stuff, while leaving enough holes to keep us dizzy for YEARS.

[prehistoricman]

I posted this on stormblessed a while ago and after looking at the table, it seems to fit well.

http://www.stormblessed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=310

Some additional reasoning behind this: Worldsingers seem to have some uncanny parallels to Terris Keepers (as well as another group in Liar). Since Brandon has stated that there are parallels in his magic systems, it seems that this may be one of those parallels. Furthermore, considering what the Worldsingers do, wise is a very fitting characteristic.

[hoser]

Great work!

I have a few thoughts to offer.

I agree with the regrowth ability being with 9 and 10, because the topaz and heliodor are in the fabrial that the woman in the Midnight Essence vision uses. It does seem odd that it doesn't go with 4 Vedeledev whose secondary attribute is "Healing". It also seems odd that Taln, who would presumably have the Regrowth ability, keeps dying all the time.

Presumably the increase in speed and minor healing that Kaladin demonstrates are common to all orders, but Dalinar seems to also exhibit a super-strength in fighting the chasmfiend. I wonder whether that strength might be another surge power. People have suggested Dalinar as Kalak-resolute/builder and nails and bone both seem strong, so I wonder whether the strength would go with 8 Kalak and 9 Talenel.

The knights Radiant are supposed to do near instantaneous travel. Clearly Windrunners don't. So maybe only two orders can do it. You do list the ability, but it seems difficult to assign. Maybe the female Radiant in the Midnight Essence vision is using it. The male Radiant is apparently a Windrunner, can be seen flying and shakes the earth when he lands. She just shows up and has glowing light tan eyes and her armor glows with an even amber light. We know that the amber knights are Stonewards from the Recreance vision. Hence travel might go with 8 and 9 Stonewards also. So maybe super-strength goes with 7 and 8?

I am not convinced that Dustbringers are Radiants, but I have no evidence as to why they are not. The following quote from the prelude suggests to me that Dustbringers burn things.

... Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. Even some sections of rock smoldered. The Dustbringers had done their work well.

If setting things on fire is a radiant ability, it could well go with 2 and 3 based on the colors and gemstone.

That leaves one ability for 3 and 4 to share. I have no clue, but instantaneous communication across great distances would sure be useful.

Actually, there is evidence for remote communication in the Midnight Essence vision (Chapter 19):

The female Shardbearer turned to her companion, then the two of them fell into stances forming a triangle with Dalinar.

and

She looked to the side, expression growing distant. Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong.

The second quote, in particular, seems to be describing a remote communication in real-time. Does the remote communication ability come from the armor, is it an ability of all radiants or is specific to certain orders? I don't know, but the Stoneward woman doesn't seem to be using a fabrial.

What do people think?

Edited December 15, 2011 by hoser

[Bri-Y]

Hi, new poster.

Anyways, I just reread Way of Kings this week and looking up stuff afterwards was how I stumbled onto this forum. This thread actually drew my interest because of Dustbringers. I personally find it surprising how many people have stated, not just on this thread and forum but others as well, that they probably have some "fire" related power. I personally don't think that this is the case.

I actually think they interact with atomic forces. I think their main power has to do with breaking down the forces, i.e. breaking things down to dust. Their power could somehow destabilize the bonds in some piece of mass, like a rock for instance, causing it to fall apart. Thus their namesake "Dustbringers."

And while I'm no physicist, I'm pretty sure other things happen when you break apart the bonds of something tightly held together by those bonds. The other forces in the universe would come to play, particularly the ones that govern how much space between molecules exists and so on (As I said, I'm no physicist). The result would cause an explosion- the atoms would be "pushing" each other much like what occurs in a nuclear reaction. This would explain all of the smoke and wreckage around the areas where they fought.

If this is a power of theirs, they would truly be a very devastating force to fight against.

That's my theory about these guys anyways.

[discipleofhoid]

Hi, new poster.

Anyways, I just reread Way of Kings this week and looking up stuff afterwards was how I stumbled onto this forum. This thread actually drew my interest because of Dustbringers. I personally find it surprising how many people have stated, not just on this thread and forum but others as well, that they probably have some "fire" related power. I personally don't think that this is the case.

I actually think they interact with atomic forces. I think their main power has to do with breaking down the forces, i.e. breaking things down to dust. Their power could somehow destabilize the bonds in some piece of mass, like a rock for instance, causing it to fall apart. Thus their namesake "Dustbringers."

And while I'm no physicist, I'm pretty sure other things happen when you break apart the bonds of something tightly held together by those bonds. The other forces in the universe would come to play, particularly the ones that govern how much space between molecules exists and so on (As I said, I'm no physicist). The result would cause an explosion- the atoms would be "pushing" each other much like what occurs in a nuclear reaction. This would explain all of the smoke and wreckage around the areas where they fought.

If this is a power of theirs, they would truly be a very devastating force to fight against.

That's my theory about these guys anyways.

This would work well this Brandon's statement of strong atomic forces being one of the surges.

[Wispsy]

Shallan describes her drawing as a picture of the soul and says when she takes a memory it's like taking a tiny snipping of their soul and growing it on the canvas. I'm not suggesting that is actually what she is doing but it seems possible from her description of her ability if we are giving people soul titles she is a more likely candidate then jasnah who afaik only works with items souls! And doesn't really cast them more transform IMO but tbh I'm just putting this out there

Then again she could be eyes!

Then again her first soulcasting is blood, if she is doing it instinctively it might be that :/ damnation tricky!

Edited December 3, 2011 by Wispsy