Measuring the Chronology of the Cosmere by Technology

[Tempus]

While thinking about Chronology in the cosmere, what strikes me now and again is the discrepancies between different worlds, their stated time periods, and their technology level. I've judged that it should be possible to estimate to some extent the progress and age of worlds in the cosmere if we look at the major events on the world and their technology levels.

 

In human history, we divide general technological levels into a variety of ages, as follows. While there are of course significant local discrepancies for technologies, these rarely vary by more than a couple hundred years in either direction, which is adequate for the kind of accuracy we are looking for.

 

• Stone Age:    ~ 6000 years        Stone tools, crude technology
• Bronze Age:  ~ 2000 years        First use of metallic tools, notably bronze (easy to make)
• Iron Age:       ~ 1000 years        Standardized use of iron and steel tools, advanced forging techniques
• Medieval:      ~ 500 years          Mills, catapults, gunpowder
• Renaissance ~ 200 years          Foundation of scientific method, printing
• Industrial:     ~ 150 years          Engines, steam power
• Modern:       ~ 100 years          Electricity, Automobiles, Radio, Nuclear tech
• Information:  ~ 50 years           Computers, Internet, Fiber optics

 

Now, those are perhaps unpardonably crude measurements, but they're the best I can approximate after reading quite a bit on it without going to get another degree! So, using that information....

 

I made a pretty chart: (one planet edited out due to avoiding discussion of unpublished works)

 

 

Interestingly, this suggests that...

 

• Roshar was the first planet settled (that we know of)

• Roshar is the least advanced planet that we of

• Sel or an Unpublished planet are probably the most advanced technologically - we've had some info that Ashyn seems to be far ahead of Roshar as well (Ashyn not on chart)

• Despite Sel being potentially a thousand years or more of tech ahead of Scadrial, Scadrial apparently still gets FTL first. Scary!

 

---

 

Conclusions for each Era by Planet:

 

---

 

Roshar:

 

• We know from 'Taln' that the peoples during the Desolations were fluctuating between Stone, Bronze, and Iron. This is sufficient to indicate the tech level for that period. The Last Desolation was 4500 years prior to Way of Kings.

 

• We know from flashbacks that at the time of the Recreance that the society was in late stone to mid iron age. Assuming a normal progression from Way of Kings, this interpolates to be Mid-Bronze age.

 

• In Way of Kings, we can place Roshar at late medieval era in tech. This is because of a number of factors, but largely because they don't show the three main signs of the Renaissance - the printing press, the scientific method, and advanced mechanical weaponry (nominally the musket).

 

• Roshar's medicine is much more advanced - this is due to spren, which led to germ theory far prior to developing microscopes. That's gigantic.

 

• Roshar's mechanics and engineering seem to be behind the times by WoK. This is probably due to a combination of lack of metals, lack of need for infrastructure due to ability to gain rare or expensive materials cheaply via soulcasting, and lack of requirements for major war engines due to availability of shardplate and blades.

 

• Roshar's scientific principles in WoK seem to be on track, and while there is no formal scientific method, the research we have seen from Jasnah, Shallan, Mr.T, Navani, and the Ardents shows a civilization on the cusp of the Renaissance in science.

 

• Roshar's lack of gunpowder is due to lack of opportunity to mistakenly find it, as lack of mining operations and birds means no side products to experiment with, and advanced medicine means alchemy is less random testing and more obvious results thanks to the spren.

 

---

 

Sel:

 

• In Elantris, regular citizens across the World and in the Rose Empire seem to be firmly in the Medieval, perhaps early medieval. They demonstrate no particular centres of learning, no advanced machinery, no gunpowder (which they should have opportunity to find, unlike Roshar). They do have Iron and Steel, and basic deep water navigation, so they must be later than Iron Age.

 

• In Elantris itself, the Elantrians seem far more advanced then their compatriots. While they use magic to substitute for technology, their libraries, hospitals, and the books we see show a society with knowledge approaching the early modern era - with knowledge of concepts such as waveforms and spectrums. Unfortunately, all their technology is limited to within the boundaries of Elantris, and more often to Elantrians themselves. We can probably expect rapid advancement in some areas from Sel, given their store of knowledge. However, technological advancements might slow as 'making do' with Elantrian magic could hamper non-investiture technologies.

 

---

 

Nalthis:

 

• Nalthis demonstrates a medieval level of technology that is difficult to quantify. We see no engines of war or advanced machinery, no printing, no science. However, in another country, Yesteel is rumoured to have begun to invent awakened weapons of warfare. This tentatively places them in the early to mid Medieval Era, where engines of warfare began to be in common usage.

 

---

 

Scadrial:

 

• Word of Brandon tells us that pre-Lord Ruler, they had just begun to develop Steam Engines putting them at early Industrial.

 

• The Lord Ruler regressed technology a bit, though he picked and chose his favourites to keep. He then kept it at that level. Thus, there is a combination of Late Medieval infrastructure, early medieval weaponry, and late renaissance economic technologies that I've marked as Very Late Medieval.

 

• Alloy of Law demonstrates pistols (advanced gunpowder technology), advanced metallurgy skills, steam engines, early electricity and very early automobiles that puts it on the boundary of Late Industrial and Early Modern. Word of Brandon places the setting as similar to 1910.

 

• Mistborn Trilogy two is supposedly urban, marking it as 1970's to 2000's tech level.

 

• Mistborn Trilogy three is a space opera with FTL, at an unknown period further in time.

 

---

Edited May 7, 2014 by Tempus

[Kurkistan]

One thing to note is that I think you might be underestimating Roshar a bit. I'd put them at Mid- to Late-Renaissance, myself.

[Tempus]

My chart has them at late medieval. We know they have siege weapons, but no gunpowder. This may simply be because the materials for gunpowder are scarce on Roshar. They've just started to develop fabrial technology, and are only now learning to apply it to things like tower cantilevers and other such devices. They have some deepwater navigation capabilities, which might put them near the age of exploration, which occurred late medieval as well. Their medicine is unusually advanced, but they lack printing presses entirely. They don't seem to have compasses, astrolabes, or other navigation devices, or if they do, we haven't seen them.

 

Another cool thing I thought of is that the Vorin theocratic ruling period matches up to the tech level of the Roman Empire. I wonder if it's not inspired by the Romans?

[Kurkistan]

I've never been one to put much stock in the use/development of gunpowder as a gauge of technological sophistication. Explosives in general are the kind of thing you either luck into or get as a result of very thorough understandings of chemistry: there isn't much middle ground to be had.

 

What seems to be a general lack of mechanical sophistication is something to weigh, though, as you say. But, despite the lack of printing presses and the like, consider to the rather obscene complexity that is apparently present in Dalinar's siege bridges.

 

Discussion of deepwater navigation and associated technologies (i.e. navigation devices) doesn't really apply here, I don't think, due to the rather unique restrictions on seamanship in general that we see on Roshar. No need for sophisticated navigational techniques when you literally die if you can't make it back to a cove at relatively short notice. 

 

Despite this, various scholars are apparently able to do some decent geo-location based ont he sun's position in the sky after their Oath-gated to Urithiru, so it seems that they at least have the mathematics of the thing down.

Edited April 20, 2014 by Kurkistan

[M'Hael]

I also think you should add steam punk ( mechs, lasers, etc.) since Brandon said the last trilogy of the Mistborn series will be based "far in the future."

[Gaelan]

Excuse me if I point out that I don't agree that much with the Mistborn timelines, since we can see pocket clocks (is that expression correct in english? I don't know, sorry) and some water containing mecanisms in the first trilogy.

 

Similarly, more than in medieval Roshar could be experiencing the Reinassance (furthermore, they are rediscovering fabrials by the time of the Stormlight Archive)

[TheArcanist]

That is remarkably well thought-out, but I think it's not taking into account a few things, such as the resources available or the way that magic interacts with the world. One of the major influences of magic is that it, in many ways, replaces major technologies. This is certainly the case on Sel, as Raoden talks about theories in AonDor theory books that resemble particle physics and wave theory. This also seems to be the case on Scadrial where the use of Allomancy discouraged the development of metal-based technology. Nalthis, I have no real explanation for their level of technology other than that they're a younger society than the rest.

 

However, I'm going to go ahead and poke holes in my own opinion here, as Roshar is an obvious exception, where Soulcasting can replace their lack of resources to an extent and fabrials let them advance technology in interesting examples. We've heard a few tantalizing things about the people of Southern Scadrial and their Allomantic technology, but won't know much else until Shadows of Self or other Mistborn books come out. The other thing with Scadrial is that Rashek was controling the development of technology for a good 1,000 years, and Roshar was affected with the Desolations.

 

However, I think it still stands that we don't really know enough about the technological-cultural history of each planet and their people to comprehensively say how quickly or slowly they're developing technology. Also- we have no idea how magic would interfere with this.

[Tempus]

I've never been one to put much stock in the use/development of gunpowder as a gauge of technological sophistication. Explosives in general are the kind of thing you either luck into or get as a result of very thorough understandings of chemistry: there isn't much middle ground to be had.

 

What seems to be a general lack of mechanical sophistication is something to weigh, though, as you say. But, despite the lack of printing presses and the like, consider to the rather obscene complexity that is apparently present in Dalinar's siege bridges.

 

Discussion of deepwater navigation and associated technologies (i.e. navigation devices) doesn't really apply here, I don't think, due to the rather unique restrictions on seamanship in general that we see on Roshar. No need for sophisticated navigational techniques when you literally die if you can't make it back to a cove at relatively short notice. 

 

Despite this, various scholars are apparently able to do some decent geo-location based ont he sun's position in the sky after their Oath-gated to Urithiru, so it seems that they at least have the mathematics of the thing down.

 

As far as explosives go, I do agree. The Chinese had gunpowder weapons like exploding arrowheads and small cannons back in their Bronze Age. While on Earth any sufficiently advanced culture has discovered gunpowder, it is indeed reliant on availability of materials. 

 

As far as complex siege towers - siege towers had winches, cranes, and crankshafts throughout the iron age. They stopped being in use by the Renaissance period. So this actually supports the Iron Age hypothesis.

 

Deepwater navigation is likely to suffer on Roshar, but the true value of the navigational tools is for trade routes, not exploration. As highstorms are predictable, imagine bulk trade to Shinovar from Aletha at speed!

 

The main things I feel we are missing from the Renaissance are the Printing Press and the Scientific Method. We're also lacking things such as springs, gears, crankshafts, parachutes, dry docks, and other important Renaissance tech. The Scientific Method is beginning to be founded by the people in Kharbranth, and by the artifabrians, but it's all very much still self study and observation. That's still the only indication to me of an approaching Renaissance.

 

 

I also think you should add steam punk ( mechs, lasers, etc.) since Brandon said the last trilogy of the Mistborn series will be based "far in the future."

 

That's not what Steampunk is.

 

 

Excuse me if I point out that I don't agree that much with the Mistborn timelines, since we can see pocket clocks (is that expression correct in english? I don't know, sorry) and some water containing mecanisms in the first trilogy.

 

Similarly, more than in medieval Roshar could be experiencing the Reinassance (furthermore, they are rediscovering fabrials by the time of the Stormlight Archive)

 

In Mistborn, we have a WoB that the technology level of Scadrial pre-Lord Ruler was creating early steam engines, and then the Lord Ruler backtracked them and kept them stuck, while keeping his favourites. I've placed them at early Renaissance, precisely because of that. Early spring powered clocks and pocket watches appeared in the late medieval/early Renaissance period (1524, actually), and modern style watches began appearing mid-renaissance. Water containing mechanisms... I'm not sure precisely what you mean by that, but things like aqueducts, water wheels, water towers and reservoirs, and other such things go back as far as the Bronze age. I didn't put them full Renaissance, because the Renaissance had four major advancements in my opinion - The Printing Press (HUGE), The Scientific Method (HUGE), Navigation Tools like Astrolabe, modern compass, and projection mapping (for expansive ocean trade), and Muskets and Pistols (the first personal gunpowder weapons to revolutionize warfare). The most advanced technology is canning, for certain - it's a bit of an outlier. So, that's why I put them where I did

 

As far as Roshar goes - see above.

 

 

That is remarkably well thought-out, but I think it's not taking into account a few things, such as the resources available or the way that magic interacts with the world. One of the major influences of magic is that it, in many ways, replaces major technologies. This is certainly the case on Sel, as Raoden talks about theories in AonDor theory books that resemble particle physics and wave theory. This also seems to be the case on Scadrial where the use of Allomancy discouraged the development of metal-based technology. Nalthis, I have no real explanation for their level of technology other than that they're a younger society than the rest.

 

However, I'm going to go ahead and poke holes in my own opinion here, as Roshar is an obvious exception, where Soulcasting can replace their lack of resources to an extent and fabrials let them advance technology in interesting examples. We've heard a few tantalizing things about the people of Southern Scadrial and their Allomantic technology, but won't know much else until Shadows of Self or other Mistborn books come out. The other thing with Scadrial is that Rashek was controling the development of technology for a good 1,000 years, and Roshar was affected with the Desolations.

 

However, I think it still stands that we don't really know enough about the technological-cultural history of each planet and their people to comprehensively say how quickly or slowly they're developing technology. Also- we have no idea how magic would interfere with this.

 

I tried to take into account magic when I could - rather than pushing the ages, though, it seems to destabilize the normal progression, making some things come earlier than they usually would, and other things later.

 

You'll see specifically for Sel that I boosted the Elantrian specific part up to late Renaissance. Early wave theories and classic physics models were published in the early 1800's, which is technically Industrial, but I feel their knowledge on that score was boosted by their Aons - they studied what they knew. By contrast, their mechanical knowledge was crappy - they seemed to have no gears, no crankshafts, no springs, no complex mechanisms of any kind. No explosives, no advanced building techniques, no advanced seafaring. Why would they need them when they could just magic those effects? The sad part is that as a result, the only ones with advanced knowledge were the Elantrians, because they never developed civilian, non-magic tech past the Iron Age. So I put them in Renaissance, because they have some tech that should be Industrial, but others that are far underdeveloped and should be Iron Age. Notably, they do have a scientific method and some form of mass printing.

 

We have WoB that Allomancy advanced metallurgy and mechanisms faster than they normally would have been otherwise. I imagine allomancy makes some principles that were discovered rather late, like magnetism, instinctive to the native population. Which is great.

 

Regardless, I did my best given what we know. And from the time skips we have seen, everything actually fits remarkably well. Mistborn to Alloy of Law is pretty much perfect, and again to the time frame of Mistborn Trilogy 2. Roshar fits quite nicely techwise with what we know of the Desolations. The manywar and Warbreaker match up excellently. While there are certain techs that are more or less advanced, and maybe a couple hundred years leeway in some places, it all fit together to scale admirably.

 

My biggest personal issue is actually "When did people arrive on the planets, and what tech did they have when they did arrive?". That is by far the biggest possible hole in the system, to my opinion.

[Cromptj]

Is the blanked out planet Taldain? If so, there should probably be a split like on Sel, with separate timelines for the people on the dark side and the people on the light side.

[Shardmancer]

Just wanted to say Tempus- this is very well thought out and I believe it matches up very well. One of the problems with Roshar however since so much is lost from the desolations- and many things are beings rediscovered that seem to be far beyond comprehension of civilization in this era.

 

So its possible to say that Roshar was at one point more advanced than they are currently.

[Tempus]

Is the blanked out planet Taldain? If so, there should probably be a split like on Sel, with separate timelines for the people on the dark side and the people on the light side.

Yep. Could do it double like with Elantris. Didn't worry about it too much, we don't know enough about nighttime stuff.

[Mistdork]

Roshar is amazingly advanced in one area: medicine. Guess how long it took us to learn to wash our hands, even, after surgery? That happened in the 19th century. A lot of their techniques are more advanced in this area. They have no midwives, they have more medical knowledge than they should...

 

Another point too. Even if they have a scientific method, we might have not heard of it (considering that this would be known by women/ardents). Yes, we've met some scholars, but these scholars (Navani, Jasnah, and Shallan) don't really practice that form of science... Also, considering how much Sebarial knows about economics and manufacturing when he's planning to set up his little economy on the plains...well... They even have large standing armies, most European nations didn't have that until the 18th/19th century.

 

So really, here's my point. Roshar has some things that are more advanced than their "Iron Age"/Renaissance status. This isn't that shocking, the way technology advances on a world with Investiture is different because they have an extra source of power (Stormlight) and their culture is different. These two things effect what they discover and when. So, I'm not sure the traditional methods of measuring their society is the best one...Another point too, when considering a culture medieval/renaissance/enlightenment, it really depends where you're looking. In the cities of Roshar, it might be more Renaissance/Enlightenment (without the gunpowder and certain other advancements), but in the country side it would appear to be more medieval. I'd really need a good bit more stuff on Kholinar to know how medieval their society is, and we haven't really gotten that yet...

[Tempus]

Roshar is amazingly advanced in one area: medicine. Guess how long it took us to learn to wash our hands, even, after surgery? That happened in the 19th century. A lot of their techniques are more advanced in this area. They have no midwives, they have more medical knowledge than they should...

Yes, they really are. Their medicine is quite standout, and there is a specific reason for this. Spren. Germ theories were available hundreds of years before they were adopted, but it's very difficult to get people to accept things that they can't see. In our world, the microscope was invented in the 17th century, and wasn't able to see germs until late 18th/early 19th century. It was the ability to see the germs and access to those microscopes that led to the widespread adoptation of germ-centric disease theories.

 

On Roshar, infection have spren, diseases have spren, rot has spren. They specifically mention you can see them flee from water. Their medicine is advanced because they can see things we needed microscopes for, simple as that. They can also see direct indications of pain (painspren) and other types, allowing for easier diagnostics.

 

 

Another point too. Even if they have a scientific method, we might have not heard of it (considering that this would be known by women/ardents). Yes, we've met some scholars, but these scholars (Navani, Jasnah, and Shallan) don't really practice that form of science... 

 

We haven't seen any mention of any formalized scientific method, but there is lots of indication that it is under development or could be founded shortly if there was sufficient lines of communication between scholars. The only person who is seen on screen to put down any methodical experimentation is Sizgil, but as ardents and scholars are generally women, I expect that it is fairly well known and quite possibly on the cusp.

 

 

Also, considering how much Sebarial knows about economics and manufacturing when he's planning to set up his little economy on the plains...well... They even have large standing armies, most European nations didn't have that until the 18th/19th century.

 

 

 

There are a number of economic texts from Antiquity, notably China and Greece. Though modern political economic theory was all Adam Smith up in the 18th century, mercantilism and it's origins were established in the middle ages, and Sebarial's knowledge (at least his demonstrated knowledge) isn't beyond that.

 

 

They even have large standing armies, most European nations didn't have that until the 18th/19th century.

 

I'd debate this on three points.

 

The Alethi were until just recently a scattered collection of feudal lords, constantly fighting their small battles (and still doing so, as shown in Way of Kings) for land. There's nothing to suggest that they have anything approaching a large, standing, national force - in fact it is clear from the way the Highprinces act that having an overarching military authority (Highprince of War) is not only unusual, but unwanted. Military cooperation is not exactly on the list, and their invasion is supported entirely by individual greed of a variety of factions (the gemhearts). This has every indication of being similar to a feudal, medieval type organization.

 

Many countries had standing armies. Notably, the Romans had a large standing army, and the Vorin hierocracy of the past resembles in many ways the Roman Empire.

 

Lastly, Alethi is apparently based a little bit on a Korean-Western mashup, according to Brandon. It isn't required to parallel western military practice.

 

 

 

 

So really, here's my point. Roshar has some things that are more advanced than their "Iron Age"/Renaissance status. This isn't that shocking, the way technology advances on a world with Investiture is different because they have an extra source of power (Stormlight) and their culture is different. These two things effect what they discover and when. So, I'm not sure the traditional methods of measuring their society is the best one...Another point too, when considering a culture medieval/renaissance/enlightenment, it really depends where you're looking. In the cities of Roshar, it might be more Renaissance/Enlightenment (without the gunpowder and certain other advancements), but in the country side it would appear to be more medieval. I'd really need a good bit more stuff on Kholinar to know how medieval their society is, and we haven't really gotten that yet...

 

I agree, it's all a little wishy washy. I've put Roshar at late medieval here, but some are further (medicine) and some are behind (engineering). The good part is though, that the history of technology on earth has fairly large tolerances as well - the level of tech varies fairly widely from country to country, and from urban to rural as well. The reason I organized the chart into blocks of descending scale was to help visually represent these tolerances - in medieval times, 100-300 years is a fairly good tolerance. In modern times, even very poor countries in Africa have some internet, machinery, factories and other such technologies in their urban centres, and a tolerance closer to 10-50 years is better. It is all a little estimated, but we don't really need to be precise to a few years or to specific parts of society for each tech, a general idea will suffice.

[Mistdork]

Yes, they really are. Their medicine is quite standout, and there is a specific reason for this. Spren. Germ theories were available hundreds of years before they were adopted, but it's very difficult to get people to accept things that they can't see. In our world, the microscope was invented in the 17th century, and wasn't able to see germs until late 18th/early 19th century. It was the ability to see the germs and access to those microscopes that led to the widespread adoptation of germ-centric disease theories.

On Roshar, infection have spren, diseases have spren, rot has spren. They specifically mention you can see them flee from water. Their medicine is advanced because they can see things we needed microscopes for, simple as that. They can also see direct indications of pain (painspren) and other types, allowing for easier diagnostics.

Eh, exactly why I mentioned Investiture at the end there. I wrote this post while half asleep and after finishing a paper/project on Money and Banking, so detail specifics were too muddied in my brain to a long explanation. You're right of course (though you don't have to explain it to me I know when microscopes were invented and why germ-theory came about), but this still supports my point about Investiture (and its effects, spren, etc) changing the way that technology develops.

 

There are a number of economic texts from Antiquity, notably China and Greece. Though modern political economic theory was all Adam Smith up in the 18th century, mercantilism and it's origins were established in the middle ages, and Sebarial's knowledge (at least his demonstrated knowledge) isn't beyond that.

He still wanted to develop a textile industry...Mercantilism is a theory related to absolutist governments and centralizing powers, looked at properly, it's not a medieval theory. Feudal doesn't equate to absolutist, absolutism was a product of Enlightenment thought. The enlightened absolute monarch was believed by some (in France, the HRE, etc) to be the best way to protect the civil rights of their people... Smith's capitalism was developed in a parliamentary system (Scotland being part of Great Britain by this time) and as something of a counter to 'medieval' mercantilism...or France's economic system (you could say also that it took hold because of the kind of economy that Britain developed beyond Smith due to its democracy and later imperialism...) Not that one can't find some ideas in earlier periods, but mercantilism proper is a bit more Renaissance/Enlightenment than something of feudal lords. There's nothing wrong with saying that Sebarial might be something of a genius though, even if he's storming lazy about it...and if anything, Alethkar might very well become an absolutist-like state by the time these books are done...if it survives, that is.

 

The Alethi were until just recently a scattered collection of feudal lords, constantly fighting their small battles (and still doing so, as shown in Way of Kings) for land. There's nothing to suggest that they have anything approaching a large, standing, national force - in fact it is clear from the way the Highprinces act that having an overarching military authority (Highprince of War) is not only unusual, but unwanted.

 

Military cooperation is not exactly on the list, and their invasion is supported entirely by individual greed of a variety of factions (the gemhearts). This has every indication of being similar to a feudal, medieval type organization.

Many countries had standing armies. Notably, the Romans had a large standing army, and the Vorin hierocracy of the past resembles in many ways the Roman Empire.

Lastly, Alethi is apparently based a little bit on a Korean-Western mashup, according to Brandon. It isn't required to parallel western military practice.

I'll agree with that. They are feudal lords, but I have very little familiarity with Asian history and I don't like the subject, it doesn't interest me. But here's another question to consider, can we call those periods in Asian history strictly medieval? Calling it medieval just because it occurred in the same period is rather Eurocentric...and perhaps unfair to the Song Dynasty (for example) or the Ming Dynasty. But anyways, a lot of early centralizing started in similar ways to what Gavilar has done. It's never easy, they (the Highprinces) would rather stay as they are, but that doesn't mean that it's not being forced to centralize even though they would rather not do so. That was actually a pretty usual tendency, would you like to give up power if you were a Highprince? Would you like someone treating you like you're a kid/new recruit that needs to be whipped into shape? Do you think that when similar things happened in Europe that feudal lords were happy about their kings/rulers consolidating power, conquering and demanding tribute and then taking away their rights and powers over their lands? Dalinar is arguably acting like a Ren/Reformation/Late Medieval era absolute monarch...even though he has a good reason for it and isn't the king.

That said, though, the early Renaissance period was arguably still medieval...and a part of the High Middle Ages. Recently, a lot of historians say that the eras like Iron Age, Medieval, Renaissance, Enlightenment (which you need to add, arguably this is the period between late Medieval/Ren and Industrial, it lasted about 200 years), and such aren't really that concrete. They're fluid...just like Roshar's history/culture/etc is! That's one of the things that makes it's interesting, I think, seeing that it developed a culture/history that really isn't that similar to anything on earth (even when we say it's like Chinese/Korean/Western mesh, like some anime-thing in book form, it's really not that alike at all). I compare it to European trends because that's what I'm more familiar with, and no, I really don't care if that makes me Eurocentric and such a "horrible" person because I specialized in a different area of history (modern history, particularly U.S. and Britain)...

Also, forgot gender roles. At least women can chose something other than getting married, though I think that their culture is somehow (ironically) more sexist than ours was despite that women can technically do more things than helping their husbands run their business/farms, being housewives, and having babies (or becoming nuns/etc; this comment is somewhat snarky). The ideas of men and women spheres are so well defined on Roshar it may be in some ways worse for women (and men). At least we were never expected to eat just sweet food. Yuck. It's a little like the spheres in this book were mix with a blender than poured out into separate cups marked 'woman' and 'man'. Some of it makes sense, like the highest calling of men being that of a warrior (for some reason their whole religion makes me think...VIKINGSxJudeo-Christian beliefs), but I recall being somewhat surprised that women were scholars and that men were surgeons. It's an example of how their culture is more "advanced" but at the same time "backwards", since in the Middle Ages and into the Enlightenment period women were midwives (even though there were a few surgeons/doctors in the 18th century, this was usually in the women's sphere until the late 18th/early 19th) and men went to be scholars at universities (or were privately taught), if a woman was a scholar she was a nun (like a man who is a scholar is most likely an ardent on Roshar). 

Edited April 27, 2014 by Nymp

[Empyrus]

Ah, great, stuff about chronology. 
How long ago was the Shattering? This does have an effect upon the Cosmere planets, especially the ones that are more technologically advanced, like Scadrial.

Does Scadrial have fossil fuels? If it does, do these come from life that went extinct long ago (it takes a long time for these to form, and they do require carbon-life) on Scardrial, or did the Shards create pockets of these for the Scadrians? Or did they arrive so long ago life had enough time to form fossil fuels? Or was there life on Scadrial before the Shards arrived and created stuff there?

 

I calculate that Scadrian humans have been on their planet at least 6800 years: 5500 years from creation to roughly 16th Earth century level tech (assuming similar technological progression rate), 1000 years of the Final Empire, and 300 years for The Alloy of Law era. Let's say 7000 to be on the safe side. EDIT of course, it is possible they were given a boost when they were created, and have advanced far faster, thus possibly cutting the time by thousands of years.

Assuming the Shards can travel instantaneously in Cosmere, and they went instantly to their planets and immediately started doing stuff there, the Shattering could have happened as little as 7000 years in the past.

Though considering Roshar is oldest colonized planet, and seeing as it has already thousands of years of recorded civilization, and then there was some sort settling and growth period before the Desolations began, the Shattering is probably much older than 7000 years. At least 10000, i'd say, probably more, because the Shards probably don't travel instantly nor can't do things quite instantaneously...

 

It should be noted that Scadrial seems very advanced when it comes to metallurgy, presumably due to Allomancers (collectively) requiring relatively large quantities of very pure metals in very specific alloys.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Empyrus

[Tempus]

How long ago was the Shattering? 

 

Impossible to say for sure. If Scadrians were created immediately after the Shattering, and began at early stone age, then approximately 10 000 years, give or take a couple thousand. If Honor/Cultivation brought humans to Roshar after the shattering, and there are 99 Desolations at anywhere from 50-500 years apart, then the Shattering is about 9 500 years to 100 000 years ago. If there were nine Desolation, 500 years apart (I have a theory on this, so plugging that, haha), then Rosharan history would be about 9000 years old as well.

 

So, best guess - about 10k years go from the most chronologically advanced books we've seen (Alloy of Law/Stormlight).

 

Does Scadrial have fossil fuels? If it does, do these come from life that went extinct long ago (it takes a long time for these to form, and they do require carbon-life) on Scardrial, or did the Shards create pockets of these for the Scadrians? Or did they arrive so long ago life had enough time to form fossil fuels? Or was there life on Scadrial before the Shards arrived and created stuff there?

 

Coal has been seen on Roshar, Sel, and Scadrial. Lamp oil has been seen on all major shardworlds. Roshar, at least, existed pre-shattering, and it's likely other planets did too. Presumably there was life on them as well. I'm not even gonna touch on the religious thing, so don't ask.

 

 

I calculate that Scadrian humans have been on their planet at least 6800 years: 5500 years from creation to roughly 16th Earth century level tech (assuming similar technological progression rate), 1000 years of the Final Empire, and 300 years for The Alloy of Law era. Let's say 7000 to be on the safe side. EDIT of course, it is possible they were given a boost when they were created, and have advanced far faster, thus possibly cutting the time by thousands of years.

Assuming the Shards can travel instantaneously in Cosmere, and they went instantly to their planets and immediately started doing stuff there, the Shattering could have happened as little as 7000 years in the past.

Though considering Roshar is oldest colonized planet, and seeing as it has already thousands of years of recorded civilization, and then there was some sort settling and growth period before the Desolations began, the Shattering is probably much older than 7000 years. At least 10000, i'd say, probably more, because the Shards probably don't travel instantly nor can't do things quite instantaneously...

 

Your estimates are a little shorter than mine, but relatively similar. Notably - we don't know if Roshar is the oldest colonized planet or not. Chances are fair that it is, or is close, though.

 

 

It should be noted that Scadrial seems very advanced when it comes to metallurgy, presumably due to Allomancers (collectively) requiring relatively large quantities of very pure metals in very specific alloys.

 

This was noted. As were several other tech discrepancies.

[Empyrus]

 

Coal has been seen on Roshar, Sel, and Scadrial. Lamp oil has been seen on all major shardworlds. Roshar, at least, existed pre-shattering, and it's likely other planets did too. Presumably there was life on them as well. I'm not even gonna touch on the religious thing, so don't ask.

 

I guess it could be possible that the Shards have been on their worlds for millions of years. If worldhoppers move forward in time with their hops, this probably isn't an issue for them.

 

 

 

Your estimates are a little shorter than mine, but relatively similar. Notably - we don't know if Roshar is the oldest colonized planet or not. Chances are fair that it is, or is close, though.

I went for what i think absolute reasonable minimum time. I think that if the Shards had started human civilization at relatively advanced state, this would have odd effects on the cultural and technological developement. You know, similar to uplifting a barbaric species, giving them nukes...

Sanderson noted in the Alloy of Law annotations that Scadrial is very similar to Earth, so presumably this includes its history too, so perhaps extending the minimum time Scadrial is inhabited to many tens of thousands of years is not unreasonable.

 

 

This was noted. As were several other tech discrepancies.

Ah, i just skimmed this thread, marked it for later more throughout reading. 

[Tempus]

I guess it could be possible that the Shards have been on their worlds for millions of years. If worldhoppers move forward in time with their hops, this probably isn't an issue for them.

 

I went for what i think absolute reasonable minimum time. I think that if the Shards had started human civilization at relatively advanced state, this would have odd effects on the cultural and technological developement. You know, similar to uplifting a barbaric species, giving them nukes...

Sanderson noted in the Alloy of Law annotations that Scadrial is very similar to Earth, so presumably this includes its history too, so perhaps extending the minimum time Scadrial is inhabited to many tens of thousands of years is not unreasonable.

Ah, i just skimmed this thread, marked it for later more throughout reading. 

 

It's likely it hasn't been millions of years post-shattering. With Roshar, I don't recall the exact Brandon clues, but we are led to believe there were non-human sentient races and spren on the planet prior to the arrival of Cultivation and Honor. That suggests a relatively recent arrival, aka, not hundreds of thousands of years.

 

It isn't necessary for Ruin/Preservation to start them at an extremely advanced state. Knowledge of fire, stone tools, and basic building would save them a couple thousand years. Knowledge of basic bronze metallurgy, and basic agriculture would give them a couple thousand more for a jump start. Hell, just starting them out with a good language is gigantic. Non-scadrial worlds are very likely to have gotten a jump start - as far as we're aware, Scadrial is the only world that humans were recreated on, rather than migrated to. Migrations would carry a pre-existing level of tech with them, to a point. In the Liar of Partinel sample chapters Brandon had up briefly, Yolen seemed iron age/medieval-ish. Any migrating population should at least be Bronze Age to start.

[Empyrus]

Migrated, not created? Oh, that changes things. I assumed the Shards recreated humankind on every planet (based on what i knew about Scadrial).

[Tempus]

In the recent Google Hangout with Sandy, he said he write mostly in Late Medieval / Renaissance periods, which is exactly where I've placed the majority of his books. 

[Helvesa]

In the Liar of Partinel sample chapters Brandon had up briefly, Yolen seemed iron age/medieval-ish.

 

The sample I read seemed more Bronze Age to me. In particular it reminded me of the Middle Eastern/Eastern Mediterranean Bronze Age rather than Europe.

 

Also is there any WoB on migration to the other Shardworlds? It is heavily hinted that humans migrated to Roshar, but I've always assumed that the Shards created humans on the other planets ala Scadrial.

[Tempus]

No, no WoB. However, he was very upfront and explicit about Scadrians, and hasn't mentioned anything of the sort about other humans.