Argent

Chapter 84 (Decoded) Epigraph Message

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I think it has more to do with the consequences of their existence.  An existential problem rather than a magical one.  A very likely possibility is that they discovered that the Heralds who they idolized abandoned their Oaths.  But I don't see that as breaking the new Radiants, so I'm not sure.

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So. A few things of note:

  • "Hold the secret" suggests a physical object. Yes, it could be a metaphor for "Learn the secret," but I believe this is not the case.
  • This "secret" broke the original Knights Radiant. This implies knowledge, information.
  • So far, I am inclined to believe that there is a physical object that represents the piece of information because of which the Ordens initiated the Recreance.
  • The second sentence implies that this "secret" can still be acquired.

 

 

 

In this context "hold the secret" means keep it a secret until the right moment comes to use it.

I agree that it is a piece of information, something learned by the KR which precipitated the Recreance. 

Edited by Eejit
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In this context "hold the secret" means keep it a secret until the right moment comes to use it.

I agree that it is a piece of information, something learned by the KR which precipitated the Recreance. 

I'm agreeing with Eejit(i feel bad calling him his username...) Holding the secret likely means holding it back rather than holding it in his non-metaphorical hand.

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I disagree that "hold the secret" implies a physical object. This epigraph is fascinating, though. Taravangian has all the contingency plans.

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Could the physical object be the dark sphere? the honor/shardblade seems to be a little off.

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Hmm. It still sounds physical to me, but I can see the other side. Even better, I'll laugh at more of you when I am proven right!

 

But I like the idea that the Radiants found out that the Heralds had ditched them. I don't think this would be enough to make them betray their Ideals (because, do keep in mind, they had to pay a personal cost for the Recreance too - and people don't really do the whole self-sacrifice thing for selfish reasons), but I would be interested in finding out how they reacted to this little piece of information. If it got to them in the first place.

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I see both sides. Hold does imply physically holding something, and Gavilar's sphere has certainly caused consternation...but it doesn't feel like a secret in and of itself....

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Say he knows what broke the KR and we know he didn't want them to return, but it was inevitable according to his genius stage.

Does KR orders= bad to the world? is that why the KR broke in the first place, after learning the secret.

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Say he knows what broke the KR and we know he didn't want them to return, but it was inevitable according to his genius stage.

Does KR orders= bad to the world? is that why the KR broke in the first place, after learning the secret.

 

I don't think it was that he didn't want them to return.  (Other than they mess with his truthless.)  I think he felt they would(and did) help push the Parshendi towards the everstorm.

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I see both sides. Hold does imply physically holding something, and Gavilar's sphere has certainly caused consternation...but it doesn't feel like a secret in and of itself....

 

Hold does not imply physically holding something.  In English, hold has enough idiomatic uses that implication has to be taken from the context.

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I think it's a secret he is holding to himself, i.e. holding in his mind/heart/soul to keep from getting out.

 

We need to hunt down Mr. T and get him to tell us!!!!

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I agree, I just mean that I can see both sides of the argument. I assume hold in this situation isn't physical but it shouldn't automatically be ruled out.

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The genius Mr T may know what the secret is and it may be in the diagram and they haven't spotted it.

 

 

This also suggests that Mr T is holding back the info and an object (or at least I hope he is 'cause I love the big dramatic reveals).

 

 

I wonder how Mraize feels about T after he dismissed T as a threat, now that he is also king of Jah Keved.  

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In the vision of the Recreance the actions of the KR felt too deliberate. I don't see Gavilar's sphere mind controlling the Randiants.

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I am in agreement that hold = don't tell.  Mr T was frantically writing every thought that came to him on his day of unparalleled capability.  That first sentence feels to me like him telling himself at the time "don't write it down".

 

The flip side is that he would need to remember the secret on an less brilliant day if he didn't write it down, or he needed to have known it already.

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Didn't Dalinar have a relevant vision regarding the Recreance (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Day_of_Recreance)?

I can't recall the details but perhaps a hint is hidden in that passage.

 

I find it odd that The Diagram is so vague when it comes to the Radiants.

It suggests that Mr. T may not have to destroy them after all.

 

Besides, saving humanity should be an objective of the Knights.

Therefore, they would in fact align with The Diagram, or not?

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Besides, saving humanity should be an objective of the Knights.

Therefore, they would in fact align with The Diagram, or not?

 

Their goals align, but the methods of Taravangian and the Diagrammists are completely against the Radiants. The Radiants would almost certainly try to destroy the Diagrammists if they found out about them. If they didn't, they'd lose their spren bonds.

 

I'm interested in seeing just how useful the newly formed Radiants are against Voidbringers, but for the moment I suspect the Radiants will be more trouble than their worth and Mr. T will be forced to pull the trigger.

Edited by Moogle
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I wonder if it has to do with the motives of the spren in bonding with humans?

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Hmm. It still sounds physical to me, but I can see the other side. Even better, I'll laugh at more of you when I am proven right!

 

But I like the idea that the Radiants found out that the Heralds had ditched them. I don't think this would be enough to make them betray their Ideals (because, do keep in mind, they had to pay a personal cost for the Recreance too - and people don't really do the whole self-sacrifice thing for selfish reasons), but I would be interested in finding out how they reacted to this little piece of information. If it got to them in the first place.

 

That's not a very nice attitude!

 

But what we know about the Recreance thus far lines up with it being precipitated by a secret rather than an object:

 

 

 

"Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged, arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants’ adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest." Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 6
"That they responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these were primary among those who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named." Words of Radiance, Chapter 38, page 6
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Besides, saving humanity should be an objective of the Knights.

Therefore, they would in fact align with The Diagram, or not?

The Radiants obviously mean well. But it might be that their very existence is making the fight harder. Or at least that's how it's perceived by Mr T and Nalan.

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Possible secrets:

The Heralds gave up

"Our bosses gave up on this battle between good and evil.  Well I guess we should too. Oh and kill our spren partners in the process." Just doesn't fit.

 

Honor is dead  

This could work, "Honor is dead therefore we have already lost so what's the point of continuing.  The spren have known this for a while and never said anything so screw them." However it depends a lot on when Honor died and besides, Dalinar knows.

 

Honor/Cultivation started/are the cause of the cycle Desolations, not Odium

This is something I have wondered about and has a certain appeal.  Everyone knows that the reason for these horrendous Desolations is the big bad guy named after hate and the good guys are obviously Honor & Cultivation, right? Right? The reverse has a Job'ish feel, especially with the damnation the heralds experience.  Except the Heralds gave in and the KR when they learned of it threw away their gifts, including the spren who are of Honor & Cultivation. I mean, the Last Desolation had already been won, so why keep the 'tainted' gifts of the gods that caused all that suffering? Then we get the Hierocracy where people are taught to follow the priests, not the Almighty because the Almighty turned out to be a dirtbag but you can't just tell everyone that.  Need to think about this some more.

 

EDIT: "wicked thing of eminence"

Eminence can refer to an important person and can also be used as a title. What if the wicked thing of eminence refers to something that Honor did? We see through Szeth that people can do some really horrendous things in the name of 'honor'
Edited by Xavien
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I think it may be about what happens after the Mr. T has saved the world. Once the danger is gone what do the Orders do? They are humans with immense power but without any common foe to bind them. Breaking them may be the only way to stop the infighting and power struggles that would result in their being.

 

EDIT: I really like Honor being behind the Desolations. What if the Desolations is part of the means that Honor bound Odium to Roshar? It could even be that the Voidbringers are actually the rightful people of Roshar and the humans are the invaders, the "wrong doers" if you think of it. 

Edited by Numb
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I think there's some tangible aspect to the secret, but not because of the word "hold." That could easily be metaphorical, like others have pointed out. But if it's a secret that's bad enough to destroy the Knights Radiant (twice over) he's got to have some sort of proof, otherwise what's to stop the new Radiants from ignoring him?

 

(Or at the very least, Mr. T's got to find some proof at some point. I don't doubt that super smart!Mr. T might have believed the whole world would crumble at his words because of course.)

 

Gavilar's sphere seems a likely suspect, but there's no way to be sure that it has relevance to this particular secret.

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