164 replies to this topic

[Chaos]

Ever since I read the first pages of Way of Kings, I've been thinking how the magic works on Roshar, and one question that consistently pops up in my mind is, "What is Surgebinding's focus?" I don't think we've attacked this question much on the boards, but if it's been discussed, let me know?

Some backstory: In my own discussion with Brandon (from 2009, I believe), he said that Aons are the focuses for AonDor, metal is the focus for the Metallic Arts. Those are sort of no-brainers. But then he surprised me, and said that the Commands are the focus in Warbreaker. At the time, I had guessed color, so that revelation blindsided me.

It blindsided me so much, because focuses are extremely important objects, which are directly related to Shards. Ruin and Preservation are blind to metal. That’s surely no coincidence. We haven’t really discussed the mechanics behind that metal blindness, either. I had surmised that Shards were blind to their focus, but that isn’t exactly right. Endowment can’t be blind to Commands.

Under Cuaiir’s Three Parts of Magic theory--which I adore--we could perhaps say that Shards are blind to the Physical component of the magic. I believe Will (possibly not) suggested to me that Endowment could be blind to color and/or art, which is pretty cool in its own right. That Physical component need not be the focus.

So, what is a focus? It seems to me that a focus is a specific conduit which “activates” Spiritual power to act in a corresponding, specific manner.

The metals are the most obvious example, because each metal does a specific thing. Each Aon does a specific thing, and though you can modify it with additional lines, the completed Aon draws forth the Dor’s power in a specific way. The modifying lines, in fact, make it even more specific. In Awakening, the Commands are the focus because the Command shapes the BioChromatic Investiture to a specific shape. The specificity is key.

I have a quote which may support this idea of specificity, but it’s woefully out of context. Maybe you’ll buy it, maybe not.

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak--though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that--using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself--to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

What I mean is, there is a specific conduit in the form of Allomancy. Shards can do much more than fueling magic, so that Physical form eventually vaporizes. However, backing up a second to regular magic users, we need a conduit for magic to work. We’re in the Physical Realm.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

The Physical Realm is rigid and specific. Perhaps for magic to work for humans--in the Physical Realm--we need a specific focus.

Okay, that was kind of weak logic. These quotes are out of context, and I’m ignoring the fact that focuses don’t necessarily have to be Physical in nature, as evidenced by Commands. But, while the reasons may not be very sound, for now, I believe that specificity is a key component in defining a focus. It “focuses” the power to a specific effect. Seems reasonable to me.

If you agree with that definition of focus, then I’ll stop babbling and get to the point. (I babble a lot) On to Roshar!

The first candidate that I recall for Surgebinding’s focus was Stormlight. That never quite seemed right to me, and with this definition of “focus,” I finally understand why. Stormlight is a fuel, like the Dor or color [Aside: It is interesting that one of these “fuels” is Spiritual in nature, and the other is Physical. That’s not relevant to this present discussion, though]]. That’s what Surgebinding is drawing its power from, certainly. But it’s no more a focus than color or the Dor is.

I’m pondering on this specificity idea. What’s “specific” in Surgebinding? It seems that the focus shapes which powers you get. What differentiates Jasnah to Kaladin? (Assuming that Soulcasting is a subset of Surgebinding, that is) There’s a distribution of powers, just like with Allomancy. Let’s set aside the fact that Allomancy has that genetic component, which determines what power you get, because you still need the specific focus for the magic to work. What’s the specific conduit that determines Radiant powers?

It isn’t Stormlight, as it lacks specificity. Gems are a potential candidate, too, since there are different kinds of spheres. Unfortunately for that idea, it doesn’t matter what spheres Kaladin (or Jasnah) bring, just that they are infused with Stormlight.

I can only think of one other component that is a possible candidate: spren.

Sure, we’ve only seen Kaladin bond with an Honorspren, and in the past vision, Nohaden references Honorspren specifically. But Jasnah and Shallan sure as hell aren’t seeing Honorspren. Different spren, different power.

((Szeth is an aberration, because he might not have a spren. I’m leaving him out of this paradigm for now because we lack sufficient information to understand why Szeth can do what he does. But there could be some way to replicate a spren bond without the spren, just as there is a way to steal Spiritual DNA and make you into an Allomancy. Maybe a spren died to give Szeth his power Just kidding. Maybe.))

Someone said that abilities in Roshar are granted not on a heriditary basis, but by what you do. That claim is in desperate need of some proper citations, but let’s take that as fact for a moment.

Your abilities attract a certain type of spren. This spren bonds with you. The type of spren is what determines what type of Surgebinding you get.

And fabrials are related to spren, too. Navani’s notebook time!

"The cut and type of the gem determines what kind of spren are attracted to it and can be imprisoned in it. There must be thousands of possible combinations. Once a spren is captured and the gem infused with Stormlight the fabrial can be used in machines."

So, the type of gem is important, but that’s a mean to an end to attract a spren. The variety of spren is obviously a key component, or else cutting a gemstone wouldn’t be necessary. I’m no fabrial expert, but I just reread through the Ars Arcanum, and it seems that fabrials are either manipulating (in the case of Augmenters or Diminishers) or sensing (with Warning Fabrials) things that could be like Surges.

In the case of Augmenters:

They seem to work best with forces, emotions, or sensations.

Warning Fabrials:

An Alerter can warn one of a nearby object, feeling, sensation, or phenomenon.

“Phenomenon” is vague. But Surges sort of represent forces, and fabrials seem imitating them, with spren. (So I guess there will be some Surgebinding powers related to emotions and sensations)

In the Ars Arcanum, it references in Warning Fabrials “These fabrials use a heliodor stone as their focus.” Well, no fabrial is going to work without a spren, so I’m more interested at which spren is attracted to a specific stone.

There is a lot of information in that Ars Arcanum with stone type and attributes. If only there was a column for Surge Name!

Anyways, I’m digressing. This means I should wrap up before I say something dumb.

In review, I like the idea that spren are the focus for Surgebinding (or the bond with spren, whatever). It has a nice relation to the Principle of Intent, since bonds are important. It is certainly possible that there exist stranger spren than the obvious ones we see every day, which could be as weird as Honorspren.

Playing devil’s advocate for a moment, there are some issues with this idea.

-”Honor” has a special significance to, well, Honor. If Honorspren are set above other spren, this is problematic for the theory, since there would need to be a spren for each order of Radiants. They’d need to be equal, so to speak.
-It makes the nature of spren an even more alluring question.
-The second page of Navani’s notebook says that different Stormlight patterns filtered through the gem give the fabrial its power. It doesn’t invalidate this theory, but it does give greater significance to the gemstone than I am granting it.

[Mad_Scientist]

In review, I like the idea that spren are the focus for Surgebinding (or the bond with spren, whatever). It has a nice relation to the Principle of Intent, since bonds are important. It is certainly possible that there exist stranger spren than the obvious ones we see every day, which could be as weird as Honorspren.

I guess the focus could be the "Nahel bond" maybe? From the Nohadon vision:

"Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than an ordinary man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren"

So we have a pretty clear reference to the Nahel bond being related to Surgebinding, perhaps the cause of it, as well as a reference to it being possible to form a Nahel bond with other spren than honorspren.




Hmm. I think I may need to revise my "Splinters have their own intent" theory. Originally, I assumed every Splinter would have an intent that would be a specific subset of its Shard. So an Honor Splinter would have an intent that involves being honorable in a specific fashion.

I'm now thinking that is wrong, and that a Splinter can have an intent that is a subset, but is not required to. My belief is that most of the spren you see in Roshar now don't have Splinters, but all the spren in the old days that were used for the Nahel bond did. All Splinters of Honor.

Some of those Splinters had Honor's full intent, and were honorspren. Others had Splinters that embodied specific aspects of honor, such as truth. Truthspren. Ideally, this would have ensured that all Surgebinders would be good people, as the spren would be driven by their Splinters intent to seek out people who embody honor or specific forms of honorable behavior. But as evidenced from the Nohadon vision, it didn't quite work out.

Hmm. Still not sure about all of that.

[Asha'man Logain]

I don't think surgebinding and Soulcasting are the same, nor one the subset of the other. IIRC, Brandon said something about 'depending on how you look at it there could be around 30 different magic systems'. I think this means that soulcasting, surgebinding and the third (voidbinding?) are different types of magic each with 10 subsets.

This doesn't mean that spren can't be the focus as both systems do use spren, but that would mean that different orders of surgebinders would have to bond different types of spren, according to your theory, yes?

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I doubt that. Looking at the way Shallan and Jasnah's magics work, it just really fits that Soulcasting is one of the Surgebinding abilities, and the reason they have two different ways of using it is because they are of the two different orders that use Soulcasting as one of their abilities. And look at Jasnah, she was able to shoot Stormlight lightning, which is most likely not a Soulcasting power. And then there's Shallan's Memories. These are probably their other Surgebinding powers.

Then again, I could be - and probably am - completely wrong. We only have one book so far.

[Thucydides]

Someone said that abilities in Roshar are granted not on a heriditary basis, but by what you do. That claim is in desperate need of some proper citations, but let’s take that as fact for a moment.

Brandon said this. I am 90% certain I remember him saying (well, typing) this in an interview. I was 100% sure, but then you cast doubt on it's authenticity, and my memory on these sorts of things has led me astray before... so now I am 90% sure.

I do know that I didn't read it in the brandonothology, however, ever since that was updated my computer freezes with any attempt to view it, so if anything was added (as opposed to simply rearranged) in the update, I won't have read it.

[Chaos]

I don't think surgebinding and Soulcasting are the same, nor one the subset of the other. IIRC, Brandon said something about 'depending on how you look at it there could be around 30 different magic systems'. I think this means that soulcasting, surgebinding and the third (voidbinding?) are different types of magic each with 10 subsets.

This doesn't mean that spren can't be the focus as both systems do use spren, but that would mean that different orders of surgebinders would have to bond different types of spren, according to your theory, yes?

I suppose it is possible Soulcasting is not a Surgebinding ability, but the fact of the matter is that two orders of Knights Radiant have Soulcasting ability, which is exactly what you would expect if Transformation was a Surge (two powers per Radiant).

Besides, there is also Old Magic to fit into that paradigm. One could easily say there are ten Surges, ten Voidbinding powers, and ten things related to Old Magic. We can't know for sure which are the correct "thirty" until we get more books, though.

Brandon said this. I am 90% certain I remember him saying (well, typing) this in an interview. I was 100% sure, but then you cast doubt on it's authenticity, and my memory on these sorts of things has led me astray before... so now I am 90% sure.

I do know that I didn't read it in the brandonothology, however, ever since that was updated my computer freezes with any attempt to view it, so if anything was added (as opposed to simply rearranged) in the update, I won't have read it.

You're right, it isn't in the Brandonothology, but that's okay. I didn't mean to say that isn't authentic. There's a lot of reasons why I think it's valid (for one, it is always good to differentiate between the time tested "it's hereditary!" thing we get in fantasy. And it would make sense in context for Kaladin and Dalinar, with how they are getting abilities). I simply didn't find the original person who posted it, and that original person I don't think had a citation either. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt. It's not so ludicrous as to immediately question its authenticity, and at the time of Way of Kings' release, 17th Shard had a lot less members. In the future, I'd like to think that we get a bit more rigorous with citations and logging what Brandon says.

[Asha'man Logain]

True, true. For some reason I think that the 'Old Magic' was someone using one of the three (Soul Surge or Void) possibly in an unexpected way. The "she" they talk about is apparently immortal. This would have given Her enough time to come up with new an interesting applications.... Or i could be reading too many Sanderson novels, heh.

Either way, if spren are the focus on Roshar, then each different order would have to bind a different spren, correct?
Are there only 30 spren that can form the Nahel Bond? As Silus said we only have one book, 10% of what we need. I suppose anything is possible.

[Mad_Scientist]

I've come to a conclusion: I don't think focuses on Roshar are spren, or the bond with spren, or anything like it.

Let me explain why. I still agree with the basic definition of a focus given in this thread. The focus of a magic system is not that which the magic system is focused on, rather, it is that which focuses the magic system. Basically, a focus is how you choose what power you want to access. A magic system might grant 16 powers, or a thousand, or 5, and a person might potentially have the ability to use all or just some of those powers. But regardless, when they decide "I want to use this one power," the focus of the magic system is the method they use to choose that one power.

But there's something I think you missed, Chaos. A specific focus varient seems to apply universally for that magic system, regardless of how the power is gotten or what other powers someone possesses. Let me use Mistborn as an example to better explain what I mean. In Mistborn, we have a Thug like Ham. We have Spook, who briefly gained the power of a Thug through the use of a completely different magic system. We have Vin, a natural Mistborn, and Elend, a Mistborn who gained his powers through Larasium. We have a bunch of Inquisitors who gained the ability of a Thug the same way Spook did.

Diffrent overall abilities, different levels of strenth, and even some totally different methods of acquiring the abilities in the first place. But regardless, if any of them decide "I want to use the allomantic power that makes my body stronger," they do so by burning pewter. It doesn't matter how they got their powers, or what other, if any, powers they possess. They want to strengthen their body using allomancy, they burn pewter.

The only exceptions to that are Vin burning the mists and Vin empowering Elend after her ascension, but I think both can be taken as unusual exceptions caused by direct interaction with the very essence of a Shard, rather than an indication that the general rule is false. They were both unique situations where the rules temporarily changed, but in general the rules for Vin and Elend were the same as for everyone else: burn pewter to strengthen the body. Burn a different metal to do something else.

Anyways, getting to the point. Assuming I'm right about the way a particular focus varient is universal, there's no way that spren bonds can be the focus for Surgebinding. Because if a bond with a specific type of spren was the focus, that means that it should apply to all Surgebinders, and even people who gained Surgebinding abilities through abnormal methods. There are two issues that arise from that. The first is that Szeth would have to have an honorspren. It wouldn't matter if he got his powers through an abnormal method. Afterall, an as I mentioned above, an Inquisitor still burns pewter to use the associated allomantic ability. Szeth would still need an honorspren to use the associated Surgebinding ability.

The other problem is that each order of Radiants actually uses two powers, and they share powers. Kaladin has the ability of a Windfinder, the ability to manipulate two Surges: gravity, and adhesion. There are other orders of Radiants who could manipulate one of those Surges. One could manipulate gravity plus another unknown Surge, and the other order could manipulate adhesion plus another unknown Surge.

If a bond with an honorspren is the focus varient needed to manipulate gravity, then that would mean it should also be the focus varient the Gravity-Unknown order of Radiants would use when they manipulated gravity. So they would also need to be bonded to honorspren. But the Gravity-Unknown order would also need to be bonded to another spren in order to manipulate their unknown Surge, right?

That doesn't really make sense. It would be like if in Mistborn, tin and pewter didn't exist. Instead you just had silver. Some people could burn silver, and gain the abilities of both tin and pewter. Some could burn silver, but only gain the abilities of tin. Some could burn silver, but only gain the abilities of pewter. It would be weird and convolted and not fit in with the rest of the magic.

But maybe I'm wrong about focus varients for a magic system being universal. Perhaps on Roshar, different people use different varients to do the same thing. This still seems weird to me, like if in Elantris some people would draw one Aon to heal, but other people would draw a completely different Aon to heal, and both of them are definitely using AonDor and not separate magic systems, but I suppose it could be possible.

But there's still the problem of every order of the Knights Radient having two powers. If spren bonds are the focus of Roshar, the way people specify how they use the magic, and each order was bonded to a single spren, the spren bonds aren't really specific enough are they? Instead of a spren bond being being used to specify one power, it's used to specify two?

Maybe you could say that the Radiant abilities aren't really two powers, just one broad power, and people just divided them into subsets to categorize them better. Afterall, pewter gives both increased strength and increased healing, it's a fairly broad power, so perhaps that's the case with the Radiant abilities.

Except that's clearly not the case with the Radiants. The two powers each order manipulates are very specific and obviously different from another, at least in some cases. Soulcasting is clearly its own ability. Two different Radiant orders could Soulcast. Surely they were two different Radiant order using the same power, not two different Radiant orders using completely different powers that just happen to have near identical manifestations of one of their aspects.

So spren bonds aren't the focus of Roshar. They aren't specific enough for something that is supposed to specify how a magic system is used, and they don't appear to be universally used to choose a specific power for the magic system.

So what do I think the focus for Roshar is? Really, there's only one thing I can imagine right now, based on what we've seen. Thought. On Roshar, you don't have to use metals or draw Aons or give specific commands to pick which power you use. Your thoughts are enough. Thought is the focus of magic on Roshar.

[Chaos]

True, true. For some reason I think that the 'Old Magic' was someone using one of the three (Soul Surge or Void) possibly in an unexpected way. The "she" they talk about is apparently immortal. This would have given Her enough time to come up with new an interesting applications.... Or i could be reading too many Sanderson novels, heh.

Either way, if spren are the focus on Roshar, then each different order would have to bind a different spren, correct?
Are there only 30 spren that can form the Nahel Bond? As Silus said we only have one book, 10% of what we need. I suppose anything is possible.

Perhaps I should rephrase. I'm saying that the bond with spren is the focus for Surgebinding. Voidbinding does not have to fit in with this paradigm. Sure, metal is the focus for all the Metallic Arts, but I don't think we know enough to say that on Roshar, every magic system must share the same focuses.

But yes, that's basically what I'm saying, at least for Surgebinding. There would be ten different spren capable of forming the Nahel Bond.

As for Mad_Scientist... hmmm. I've been thinking ever since you posted how to respond. Hmmm.

So, your argument is that with a focus, there is only one way to give a certain ability, and that specific method (in the case of Mistborn, the type of metal) is unique, regardless of all other factors. For convenience, how about we call this "focus uniqueness," because it sounds fancy. We can call it something else, if you want. Focus universality, maybe. It's your concept.

And for a while, I have been quite stymied. This would indeed spell doom to this theory.

I think I've thought of an example which may falsify focus uniqueness, but it is a little weak. Roll with me for a second. In Awakening, different Commands can have the same effect. You can make a Lifeless one way that costs hundreds of Breath, or you can use a more efficient Command, which does the same thing with one Breath. So that may show that a focus does not have to be unique.

I could do some Realmatic handwavium and say that focuses are unique on Scadrial because those focuses are Physical. As Brandon had said in relation with deific essence, a Physical thing (like atium) will have a unique effect in a given magic system. So on Scadrial, where its focus is decidedly Physical, focus uniqueness would have to apply. It need not apply on Nalthis, since the Commands are more of a Cognitive nature.

There. That's all I got.

(Of course, you could mention that some Commands seem unique, like "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." In which case I will go hide in a corner.)

The two Surge thing is pretty bizarre, I will agree with you. It begs the question: are there Surgebinders who only control one Surge, instead of a Radiant's two? What would be the differences between those two?

With this spren theory, I would say that one spren gives two powers. It is because of this that the Radiants would organize into ten separate orders. If you are fighting Voidbringers, you wouldn't exclude an entire class of Surgebinders simply because they only held one Surge; you'd want all the forces you could muster. If there were single Surge Surgebinders, wouldn't those be much more common than a Radiant, with two? (Just think how much rarer Twinborn are than regular Metalborn.) If anything, those regular Surgebinders would be better soldiers for your army.

EDIT: I'd also like to add that "thought" is a lame focus, so can I automatically dislike that idea simply because of its lameness?

Edited by Chaos, 29 July 2011 - 06:01 PM.

[Mad_Scientist]

Hmm. If indeed "focus uniqueness" is true, the apparant duplicate effect from different commands is a problem. But I think I can answer that. I think that creating a lifeless using the old many breath command and creating one using the new one breath command do not do the same thing.

In Mistborn and Elantris, the magic systems have a few fairly broad abilities, and there isn't that much variety in the respective focuses. Allomancy has 16 metals. 16 different categories. Thus, doing something like burning pewter produces several different effects. But of course it is still completely distinct from any other metal burning.

AonDor has a few dozen (known) Aons. Once again, we have a fairly small number of individual focuses. We didn't really see too much of AonDor, so it's hard to really talk about it too much, but it seems it would be fairly simple to classify all the different things AonDor can do.

With Awakening, there are hundreds of different Commands. The abilities you can use with Awakening are much more precise. As a result, there are Commands that do similiar, but still distinct things. For example, "Holds things" and "Hold when thrown." Both Commands, when given to a rope, can be used to bind someone. And if a person using "Hold things" threw a rope at the exact moment he gave the Command, a casual observer might not even be able to tell that it was different from someone using "Hold when thrown."

So my belief is that the old lifeless Command and the new one don't actually do the same thing, they just look like the same thing. The new lifeless Command doesn't just create a mindless automaton, it actually makes the corpse closer to a living being. Does the old one do that too? The new lifeless Command allows a corpse to retain some of its old skills, did the old lifeless Command do that? The new lifeless Command relies almost entirely on the body of the corpse to provide movement, and the old lifeless Command very probably did not do that, considering how many breaths it took.

Now, perhaps I'm still wrong, and it is actually possible for two different focuses to produce identical effects within a magic system. Ok. But I still don't think it's possible for a single focus to produce two completely distinct effects, at least not without some sort of modification of the focus.

The fact that every Radiant order uses two different abilities, and (if spren are the focus) only uses a single focus to access those abilities is odd. It would be like if in AonDor, Elantrians could only draw one Aon. An Elantrian named Bob can draw his Aon, and it can either create fire, or create light. An Elantrian named Fred can draw a different Aon, and it can either create light, or heal someone. An Elantrian named Jim can draw yet another different Aon, and it can heal someone, or teleport Jim elsewhere.

In such a system, the Aons aren't really serving as focuses, at least as I understand them. They aren't focuses, they aren't specifying how the magic system is used really.

If a spren is the way someone specifies how Surgebinding is used, it shouldn't produce two completely different effects. If a spren grants two completely different powers, than how does a person choose which of those powers to actually use? By thought? If so, then why isn't thought the focus, when it's the thing that is actually determining which power is used.

EDIT: Fixed some major typos and incomplete sentences.

Edited by Mad_Scientist, 29 July 2011 - 07:11 PM.

[Mad_Scientist]

Some time after making the above post, my thoughts on the nature of a focus came together much better, and I realized I could state my views in far more clear and informative manner. So, I'm making another post.

Right now, we have 3 confirmed focuses: Aons for AonDor, Commands for Awakening, and metals for Allomancy/Feruchemy/Hemalurgy. If one looks at all three focuses and how they interact with their magic systems, one can notice a variety of common traits, which I believe to be the defining traits of a focus.

Before I get to those, I want to discuss something that is NOT a defining trait. A focus is not used to grant powers. Or, I should say, granting powers does not make something a focus. In Mistborn, powers are generally granted through a combination of genetics and mental trauma. In Elantris, Elantrian powers are apparantly granted by either the Sheod, or the Dor, depending on how you look at things, and the other powers we don't know enough about yet to accurately guess. In Warbreaker, powers are granted by breath, and thus every single person is born with the ability to awaken (there are one breath commands and commands that don't even cause you to lose your breath).

Yet none of those things are the focuses of the magic system. In some cases there is an overlap, since Larasium, a metal, can grant allomancy powers, and metals are the focus of allomancy. But in general, the method of granting powers is usually different.

Thus, if it indeed turns out that the bonds with spren are the method through which Surgebinding powers are granted (which I actually think is the case), this does not mean it is also the focus of Surgebinding powers. It also doesn't mean it is NOT the focus of Surgebinding powers, it simply doesn't provide any evidence towards either option.

Now, onto what I feel are the defining traits of a focus.


A focus is actively used in the magic system
A focus is not simply used once and then ignored. It is used every time you want to actively use the magic system to do something. If an Elantrian wants to travel, or wants to heal, or wants to produce light, he uses an Aon. If an Awakener wants to give up memories, or animate a corpse, or make a rope hold things, he uses a Command. If an allomancer wants to increase his physical abilities, or see the future, or sense other allomancers using their powers, he burns a metal. If a feruchemist wants to store memories, or store speed, or tap strength, he uses a metal. If a hemalurgist wants to steal mental clarity, or steal an allomantic power, or steal a feruchemical power, he uses a metal.

Any active use of a magic system will use its focus. Passive abilites do not necessarily do so, though. For example, an Elantrian does not need to use an Aon to benefit from faster healing. An Awakener does not need to use a Command to use his increased life sense. But any active ability uses the focus.

A focus is omnipresent in the magic system.
This kind of follows from the above. A focus is used for active magic. It is always used for active magic. Even if someone has gained magic powers through abnormal abilities, they still use the normal focus. Inquisitors still burn metals for allomancy and use metalminds for feruchemy.

The only confirmed exceptions to this occurs in Mistborn, where Vin burned the mists instead of metals, and later powered Elend's allomancy using her powers. It's important to note that both situations involve someone directly interacting with power of a Shard in an unusual way, and both exceptions bring with them drastically increased power. In Vin's case, her powers were so vast that allomancy couldn't even be used as a proper outlet for them.

It seems to me that when someone interacts with a Shard's power in an abnormal way and gains vastly greater powers than is normally possible, there's a chance the normal rules for the magic system will start to break down, and the focus may no longer be necessary. These are very rare exceptions, though. As a general rule, if you are using a magic system to do something, you are also using the focus of the magic system in some way.

A focus for a magic system has variations within it.
There are many different Aons. There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Commands. And there are 16 metals used for allomancy, and apparantly feruchemy and hemalurgy as well. What should we call these variations? Sub-focuses? Focus variations? I honestly don't know, though I will call them "focus variations" from here on.

Regardless of what term we use, it's clear that every focus for a magic system has several varieties. The number of varieties, and the reason for them, is rather different for each magic system. Their are only 16 allomantic metals, and this number is because Preservation knew 16 had important cosmere connections and chose 16 for allomancy to be a sign to the people on Scadrial. There are at least a couple dozen Aons, and the Aons seem to be connected to deep meanings of language and the like. There are countless Commands, and who knows what if any deeper meaning they have.

But regardless of number, regardless of reason, there is always some variation within a focus.

A focus variation is exclusive in its use in the magic system
I finally figured out the term I want to use to describe this idea. Exclusivity is much better at getting the point across than uniqueness or universality.

A specific focus variation, a specific metal, a specific Aon, a specific Command, produces an exclusive effect. No other metals will produce the same effect as pewter, no other Aons will produce the same effect as Ehe, no other commands will product the same effect as "Destroy Evil".

One could argue that Awakening presents a contradiction to this, with at least two known Commands capable of producing lifeless. I would say that the exlusivity of focus variations lies in the realmatic effects they produce, and that the apparant physical results of said realmatic effect might have some overlap.

A person burning tin and a person burning atium might both be able to react to something better than a normal person. The person burning tin does so because his enhanced senses let him perceive things better and quicker. A person burning atium does so because he can see the future. Overlapping results, completely different powers.

A single focus variation will produce a specific realmatic effect, and that can result in any number of different physical effects and actions. Some overlap in the visible effects can and will occur in some magic systems, but the realmatic effects will remain distinct. Creating a lifeless through the many breath Command and creating one through the single breath Command might seem to have similiar or even identical results, but what is going on realmatically is quite different for the two.

A focus variant for a magic system is specific
Any magic system can be broken down into various parts, various disciplines or aspects or effects or whatever you want to call them. Allomancy has 16. Awakening has who knows how many.

Regardless of number, a specific focus variation will produce one specific effect. Burning pewter will produce the effect of burning pewter, never the effect of burning iron. Using the "Hold things" Command will never create a lifeless. The very concept of a focus is based on the idea that it is the method you use to specify what a magic system does, and thus, each variation of a focus will specify a single effect within that magic system. Exactly how broad or precise that effect is will vary depending on the magic system, but if a magic systems definies two different things as different powers, a single focus will never be used to cause both of them to occur. It cannot, for the very concept of a focus is that it is the method you choose to determine which of those effects you want to occur.




Now, looking at the 5 defining traits I list above, I realize that none of them are 100% confirmed to be a required part of a focus. But most of them are pretty much required by the definition of focus that we are using.

Think of the term focus. If one first hears the phrase "focus of a magic system," one might think it means "that which the magic system is focused on, or that which the magic system is based on." But that definition of focus is too vague. Awakening could easily be said to be based on color, or based on breaths, or based on bringing life to innanimate objects, or based on Commands. But only one of those things is the actual focus of Awakening: Commands.

If one accepts the definition of "focus of a magic system" as being "that which focuses a magic system, that is, that which specifies how a magic system is used or how it manifests its powers," then things make much more sense. With that definition, Commands are the obvious focus of Awakening.

But if one accepts that definition, which seems to be the definition Chaos is advocating, most of my above "5 defining points" become requirements. If the focus is something someone uses to specify how a magic system is used, something someone uses to choose how a magic system is used, it has to be an active part of the magic. If someone can routinely use the magic to produce a variety of effects without using the focus, then the entire concept of a focus being needed to specify how the magic is used would be false.

It would have to be omnipresent as well. If most of the people using the magic could just ignore the focus, or half the people could, or even a quarter, then there wouldn't be a single focus for the magic system. If half the allomancers could produce the same effects as others, but without burning metals, then metals as an encompassing focus for the entire magic system would make no sense.

A focus would also have to have variations within it. Afterall, the focus is what you use to specify, to focus, the magic. If there is no variation within the focus, you have no way of doing so.

And the variations within a focus would have to be specific. The entire concept of the focus that we have is based on specificity. Take that away, and the focus looses all meaning.

The only one of the defining traits I listed above that isn't an intrinsic requirement of our definition of focus is exclusivity. Even if it turns out I am wrong about exlusivity being a part of a focus, and the many breath and one breath Commands for lifeless produce the exact same realmatic effect, the Commands still function as a focus. They can still be used to specify the effects of Awakening. It would just mean that more than one Command could be used to specify the same effect.



Thus, we reach the problem with spren bonds as a focus of Surgebinding. The violate 3 of the 5 defining aspects of a focus.

The violate the omnipresence of a focus, because Szeth seems to Surgebind without a spren bond. Now, one could argue that this is not a true violation, that we don't know for sure that Szeth has no honorspren. One could also point out that ominpresence is the one aspect of a focus that is 100% confirmed to have exceptions, and that my ideas on the reasons for the exceptions could be wrong. If this was the only problem with the spren focus theory, I might be able to accept the theory.

But the idea also violates the principle of exclusivity. If each order of Radiants had a single spren as their focus, but shared powers, it would mean different spren would produce the same effect. Now, one could also argue this point as well. One could point out how exclusivity is not absolutely required by our definiton of focus, and how the lifeless Commands provide some evidence that it might not always be an aspect of a focus. And so, once again, if this were the only objection, I might be able to accept the spren focus theory. When combined with the above objection relatated to omnipresence, though, it becomes much harder.

And finally, we get to what I consider the death knell of the theory: specificity. Each order of Radiants had two powers, but according to the theory, had only a single spren as a focus. Thus, the spren variations are not specific enough to be a focus. This is a problem, because unlike the above two objections, I don't see any arguments around this. The entire concept of a focus we are working with is that it specifies how a magic system is used. If we say something is a focus, but it does NOT specify how the magic system is used, then we violate the very premise our entire argument is based upon.

And when combined with the other objections of ominpresence and exlusivity... well, it doesn't look good for the spren focus theory. Either spren bonds aren't a focus, or our entire concept of what a focus is is wrong.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Remember that those are just some of the base Aons, the basis of much more complicated Aons. In fact, each Aon can have a number of slightly different effects depending on how you modify them, much the same way as there is a difference between "hold things" and "hold when thrown", with the same base (hold). One is the basic hold command and the other has a throwing modifier.

You addressed my concerns with this with your Focus Variants rule.

Also, both use thought as a conduit in directing the power, deciding what Aon and modifiers to use, and shaping the Command to further define what the Awakened object will do. This same principle can be applied to every magic system; deciding which metals to burn, and (as you pointed out) deciding which Surge's power to use. It's far to basic an action to make a true Focus.

This is a rebuttal to your "Thought as Focus" idea, which I'm not sure if you dropped or not.

You still make a legitimate point, how can spren be the Focus of Surgebinding if they don't offer individual powers like metals do?

My first thought is that we're misunderstanding the concept of a Focus. I think that a Focus is slightly more broad. Metals are the Focus of Allomancy, but Pewter is not a Focus, rather, a subdivision of that Focus. The Physical metals could be considered the same. And honorspren like Syl could be a subdivision of Surgebinding's Focus, Nahel bonding spren.

You pretty much said the same thing I say here, or meant the same thing.

Another thought is simply that how Focuses function just varies from system to system, and the way that Nahel bonding spren work is by bestowing two Surges rather than one.

I still think this is a possibility. I doubt a Focus provides absolute specificity. But the omnipresence criticism still stands.

Or we could just not know enough, but, at this point, that's probably always the case.

EDIT: Bold sentences I put in after reading the post that Mad_Scientist ninja'd me with.

Edited by Silus - Shard of Flame, 29 July 2011 - 11:16 PM.

[Mad_Scientist]

This is a rebuttal to your "Thought as Focus" idea, which I'm not sure if you dropped or not.

I haven't exactly dropped it, but I certianly don't endorse it strongly. When I realized that spren bonds as a focus no longer made sense to me, I asked myself "well then, what could possibly be the focus for Surgebinding?" And thought was the only thing I could come up with at the time. Regardless of whether thought is correct or not, I don't think spren bonds are the focus of Surgebinding. When I have time to consider things more, I'll probably come up with a more detailed argument for thought being the focus, or will come up with an entirely new idea for the focus. For now, I simply have a hard time figuring out what the heck the focus could be.

Another thought is simply that how Focuses function just varies from system to system, and the way that Nahel bonding spren work is by bestowing two Surges rather than one.

I still think this is a possibility. I doubt a Focus provides absolute specificity. But the omnipresence criticism still stands.

I notice you use the term "bestowing powers," but as I mentioned I don't really think we should think of focuses in those terms. A focus may or may not have anything to do with bestowing powers. But it definitely does have to do with using powers.

Now, within a focus, there seems to be variants, and then subsets of the variants.

For example, an Elantrian can use Aon Ehe to make fire. By adding on to the Aon, he can determine lots of things related to the fire, like its power or its target. But Aon Ehe will always be related to fire. It will never heal someone.

A Mistborn can burn pewter. By determinging the rate of the burn, whether he burns it slowly or flares it, he can determine the power of the effect. But burning pewter will never do anything other than increase his physical abilities. It will never give him the ability to push on metals.

An Awakener can use the Command "Hold things." Depending on what he uses it on, how much breath he gives up, and how effectively he visualizes the Command, the effectiveness of the Command will drastically change. But the "Hold things" command will always cause something to hold things, assuming it works at all. It will never create a lifeless.

So, with Surgebinding, we know one of the Surges is gravity, and it can be used to create both Basic and Reverse Lashings. Furthermore, the strength and direction of a Basic Lashing can vary drastically. I could accept that a single spren bond provides the ability to manipulate gravity, and the specifics of the manipulation are determined by more subtle and harder to define things. I could accept that spren bonds are the focus for Surgebonding then, because even though there are some variations with gravity manipulation, it's clearly defined in the magic system as a single power.

But Kaladin can do more than manipulate gravity. He can also manipulate adhesion. Something clearly defined as a different aspect of the magic system, a different power. And he only has a single spren bond.

And it gets even harder to accept when considering different powers. Gravity and adhesion are kind of similiar, but what about transformation and memory? I didn't mention it yet, but I'm fairly certain that Shallan's unique memory is actually an aspect of the magic system (consider how similiar it is to copperminds... when she uses a "Memory" to draw something she completely loses the memory, just like someone transfering a memory to a coppermind also loses it).

I could maybe be convinced that gravity and adhesion are the same power, so having a single focus variant produce both effects makes sense. Maybe. But Soulcasting and memory manipulation? No. And gravity and whatever power the Gravity-Unknown order uses? Adhesion and whatever other power the Adhesion-Unknown order uses? The sub powers of the Radiants are too clearly defined as separate powers for me to think that a single focus variant could produce both.

It's not that I think a focus variant has to provide absolute specificity, that every single exact variation of a power has to be provided by an exact variation of the focus. After all, you can boost your physical power in allomancy beyond normal by simply flaring pewter, you don't have to burn a completely different metal. But the focus has to at least has to provide some level of specificity. A single spren bond for each order of Radiants doesn't provide enough for Surgebinding, and multiple spren bonds for each order of Radiants seems to have already been proven false by Kaladin.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I do see that problem. I don't completely agree, but I see the relevancy of it.

And aren't the Windrunner Surges Gravity and Atmospheric Pressure?

[Mad_Scientist]

I do see that problem. I don't completely agree, but I see the relevancy of it.

And aren't the Windrunner Surges Gravity and Atmospheric Pressure?

According to the Ars Arcanum:

"A Full Lashing might seem very similiar to a Basic Lashing, but they worked on very different principles. While one had to do with gravitation, the other had to do with the force(or Surge, as the Radiants called them) of adhesion--binding objects together as if they were one. I believe this Surge may have had something to do with atmosphereic pressure."

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

So we're both right?

[Chaos]

((Note: You guys have been talking since Silus made his first post. Sorry, but my post blathers a lot of the same stuff you’ve mentioned about Variation. I also extensively discuss the thought-focus thing. Sorry. I do eventually discuss the focus criteria you made, Mad_Scientist! Really!))

Exclusivity it is. That sounds better anyways.

Before I discuss your criteria for focuses (which I think are interesting), I'm going to say that thought is a very bad focus for a magic system, Surgebinding or not.

Any magic system is going to take some Cognitive element to use. Let's take iron, for example. You have to "think" and choose which lines to utilize. However, that doesn't make thought the focus. You always have to choose to burn the metal. That does not make the choice to burn the magic's focus.

Let's say, for example, that you had a constant stream of metal. There would be that ability--that potential--to use magic, and your thought is the thing that actually activates it. What I suggest is that spren are like a reservoir of metal that is always on. They provide the ability, just like a metal would. Only with spren, you don't "use up" that focus. And that's perfectly fine. Magic systems don't need to use up a focus. Metalminds always stay the same, after all. So spren, in my mind, are almost like a metalmind. With Feruchemy, if you have that focus, you can use the magic. You either tap or store from an external source, which is not the focus itself. Well, a spren would be functionally identical in this case. You have a spren or Nahel bond, congratulations, you can use magic. But you need to supply a source (Stormlight), which is not itself the focus. Ultimately, the spren-focus idea does follow a type of interaction we have seen before in the cosmere on that level alone.

So I don't think we can dismiss the spren theory outright. I do think that thought lacks specificity. In this spren-focus idea, genetics are (seemingly) irrelevant; anyone can become a magic user, given they have a spren. If spren are not the focus, well... everyone on Roshar can think. What differentiates a member of Bridge Four, who cannot Windrun, and Kaladin? They can see what Kaladin is doing. No matter how hard they imagine them doing the same tasks as Kaladin, they will not Windrun. Is there a genetic thing? Well, that seems unlikely. So what is sufficient to Windrun?

Thought is a necessary criterion to use magic, but it is hardly sufficient. It's necessary for everything. The focus is the critical key, and looking at Bridge Four alone, I cannot see a factor that is more critical than Kaladin's bond with Syl. If Kaladin read a book on Soulcasting, could he Soulcast? Of course not. Even if spren were not the focus for Surgebinding, they are a critical component of it. Each fabrial needs it. That screams that spren are the key.

Yes, I'm playing the "Appeal to Simplicity" card. Having spren as the focus does sufficiently explain Kaladin's abilities. The rest is just icing on the cake.

Thought as a focus is pretty much the most unspecific focus ever, which violates the spirit of my definition of focus.

Hmmm, I'm looking at my definition, and I can see how the "active" factor came in. In the course of this post, I believe that is a poor wording. I would revise my definition of focus to: a specific conduit which allows specific Realmatic interaction(s) to occur.

Okay, so I might have added the (s) to interaction to help bolster the spren theory of getting two Surges in with one focus. This is true. However, if you think about it, a specific metal in Hemalurgy can make more than one "interaction" occur. It does do multiple things, depending on the way it is used, so the revised definition has some credence in canon.

Hemalurgy does have Exclusivity, though (I'll disregard the fact that atium can act as a wildcard to replicate any Hemalurgic effect, because it is a god metal, after all). But I don't think Exclusivity needs to hold.

If we assume Exclusivity did hold on Roshar, what would happen? Each Surge would have an independent variant of focus, whatever focus that may be. That means we would have to see one Surge Surgebinders. Let's call them standard Surgebinders for now, because "single Surge" is weird--and certainly if they existed, they would be standard. They would be more common than Radiants, so why aren't they in battle against the Voidbringers? We simply need to test whether standard Surgebinders exist. This is a tall bargain, since it is something really hard to prove or disprove, but I'm going to do a word search of "Surgebind" on my ebook. If there exist instances that are unrelated to the Knights Radiant, then standard Surgebinders would probably exist, and therefore, we can absolutely claim that Focus Exclusivity is a valid principle.

The stone ridges and mounds bore numerous scars. Some were shattered, blasted-out sections where Surgebinders had fought. Less frequently, he passed cracked, oddly shaped hollows where thunderclasts had ripped themselves free of the stone to join the fray.

Many of the bodies around him were human; many were not. Blood mixed. Red. Orange. Violet. Though none of the bodies around him stirred, an indistinct haze of sounds hung in the air. Moans of pain, cries of grief. They did not seem like the sounds of victory. Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. Even some sections of rock smoldered. The Dustbringers had done their work well.

This is pretty inconclusive, but in context, we're discussing the stone ridges. Surgebinders did this. Then later, we discuss sections of rock, and the Dustbringers kicked butt.

On one hand, the Dustbringers could be said Surgebinders. One could certainly get that impression. Or, there are Surgebinders unrelated to Dustbringers. In that case, we have Surgebinders manipulating stone. Maybe the Dustbringers, who make rock smolder, are a much more kick-butt variant, since they made that rock smolder and all.

Inconclusive, I think.

Szeth now.

What would these men say if they knew that the man who emptied their chamber pot was a Shardbearer and a Surgebinder? A Windrunner, like the Radiants of old?

This one is conclusive, qualifying that he has the skillset of a Radiant.

The next Szeth section:

Szeth breathed in, Infusing himself with Stormlight from the spheres in his pouch. He began to glow, luminescent vapors rising from his skin. In the darkness, it was quite noticeable. These powers had never been intended for assassination; Surgebinders had fought during the light of day, battling the night but not embracing it.

That was not Szeth’s place. He would simply have to take extra care not to be seen.

I scrolled up and down and did not see any reference to Radiants. This is also inconclusive.

Dalinar now.

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as Honorspren.”

“I agree,” Dalinar said.

The other man looked relieved. “I worried that you would find my claims too forward. Your own Surgebinders were... But, no, we should not look backward.”

What’s a Surgebinder? Dalinar wanted to scream the question out, but there was no way. Not without sounding completely out of place.

Perhaps...

“What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?” Dalinar asked carefully.

Lots of instances of Surgebinders unrelated to Radiants, however, Dalinar later thinks that the Knights Radiant may not exist yet in this vision.

“I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power... well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have with the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them...” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given--whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond--needs to make us better.”

He seemed to expect something from Dalinar. But what?

“I can read your disagreement in your face,” the regal man said. “It’s all right, Karm. I realize that my thoughts on this subject are unconventional. Perhaps the rest of you are right, perhaps our abilities are proof of a divine mantle. But if this is true, should we not be more wary of how we act?”

Divine mantle is interesting. These could be the predecessors of Radiants. Still, inconclusive.

“They have leaders,” Nohadon said. “There are princes, kings, Soulcasters, Surgebinders. We never lack men and women who wish to lead.”

There's the quote Asha'man Logain surely likes, which suggests, possibly, that Soulcasters are independent from Surgebinders. Inconclusive for the purposes of this discussion.

And lastly, there is the Ars Arcanum.

Five groupings of fabrial have been discovered so far. The methods of their creation are carefully guarded by the artifabrian community, but their creations appear to be the work of dedicated scientists, as opposed to the more mystical Surgebindings once performed by the Knights Radiant.

Knights Radiant perform Surgebindings. This quote does not imply that anything else Surgebinds.

There you have it. All instances of Surge, Surgebindings, and Surgebinders. There were a lot of instances of "surgeon", sheesh.

In this analysis, it is inconclusive at best that standard Surgebinders exist. There is no conclusive evidence that show standard Surgebinders exist. You may read those differently, and that I may be interpreting them wrong. In context, though, there is conclusive evidence for Knights Radiant, lots of it!

So, this weakens the notion of standard Surgebinders existing. They might exist, yes. But we have Kaladin, who is definitely not a standard Surgebinder, and neither is Szeth. Shallan has her Memories, which have been suggested to be related to her second Surge. Jasnah has that lightning thing. There are no definitive examples of standard Surgebinders, unless Elhokar happens to be one. We don't have enough information to see any ability which may be related to a second Surge.

This does not mean standard Surgebinders are proven to not exist. They might. They very much might. But, with this book, it is hard to argue that for standard Surgebinders.

Phew. That was a long tangent. So, like I said, if there is no evidence for standard Surgebinders, Focus Exclusivity would not exist. And I’m pretty well persuaded that standard Surgebinders don’t exist. If they did, they would probably be mentioned in histories more extensively, since they should be much more common than Surgebinders with two Surges. They aren’t. Therefore, I believe that Exclusivity is not a requirement for a focus.

In the most roundabout fashion ever, I finally get to your criteria for focuses.

1. Activeness
2. Omnipresence
3. Variations
4. Exclusivity
5. Specificity

#3, I believe, is satisfied with spren. Ten is a significant number in the cosmere, so having ten bondable spren qualifies there.

With the analysis of standard Surgebinders, I do not believe #4 is required. I was hoping that if I assumed that Exclusivity was present, I could show some contradiction. The only one I find is that the standard Surgebinder effect is very minimal, whereas they should be more numerous.

For Specificity:

The very concept of a focus is based on the idea that it is the method you use to specify what a magic system does, and thus, each variation of a focus will specify a single effect within that magic system. Exactly how broad or precise that effect is will vary depending on the magic system, but if a magic systems definies two different things as different powers, a single focus will never be used to cause both of them to occur. It cannot, for the very concept of a focus is that it is the method you choose to determine which of those effects you want to occur.

If I take these words to their fullest extent, especially in the bold, this means a Hemalurgic spike can do one thing. But Hemalurgy does violate the statement I’ve bolded. Metal is the critical condition to make it Hemalurgy work, but it is not the only method to determine which effect I want.

So the specificity requirement, at minimum, must be broadened. I like the idea. Heck, that was my whole point of focuses, that it does something specific. But that “something” can be a particular family of effects.

That is pe
rfectly fine with the idea of Variation, because the Healing Aon does a whole family of healing effects, and you need additional modifiers to specify which.

Though, you can successfully argue my point by saying “At the end of the day, that Hemalurgic spike only steals that one power, and that Aon only does that one action.” And you’re right. But whatever focus which grants Surgebinding power, it seems to like giving the powers by twos. With that statement I’m leaving the option open for standard Surgebinders to exist, but regardless, they are rare compared to Radiants.

So if we insist that Specificity must--including additional modifiers--only provide one action, then the way Radiant powers are distributed show that Specificity is false.

I think you think that activeness is violated with the spren-bond, because it merely “provides” the ability. It’s not actually active. To reiterate what I said above, if Feruchemy did not require some genetic component, and anyone could be a Feruchemist, wearing metalminds would provide the ability. A constant potential that magic can be used. Then, a Cognitive action must be made to use that capability.

Making that generic:

“If [magic system] did not require a genetic component, [X] would provide the ability, the constant potential for magic to be used. Then, a Cognitive action must be made to use that capability.”

Feruchemy/metalmind and Surgebinding/spren would satisfy that statement.

You know... the activeness requirement makes me queasy. The only “action” of Hemalurgy is stabbing some people. Other than that, it is a very passive system. Look at My Idiot Theories: A Retrospective, actually, because before Hero of Ages came out, I argued that Hemalurgy could not be a simple power stealing thing, because it was not an active magic, really. So on a personal level, I do not think we should focus so heavily on an “active” magic. I’m kind of avoiding that whole “active magic” notion you are making for exactly that reason. The whole paradigm scares me nowadays

If it makes everyone feel better, Syl had to choose Kaladin. That’s kind of like an action.

So I’ve handled 1, 3, 4, and 5, so that just means Omnipresence remains, which means I have to talk about Szeth. I can’t really reassure you there. My hope is that a spren was involved, somewhere, to give Szeth the abilities, in some creepy manner that we don’t know of yet. There is that Dawnshard quote, which says Dawnshards can bind any creature, voidish or mortal, so there is probably some scary stuff related to “binding” that we don’t know about. It is possible that someone/something forced a spren into giving Szeth his powers, somehow.

That, or there is some Shardic influence, which would be the only other acceptable substitute for spren, under this theory.

Given that there are two possible methods for Szeth to artificially get his power, I do not think Szeth is a dealbreaker for this theory. These Shards have their essence somewhere! There are Honor Splinters (which may or not be spren to being with), to say nothing of any essence of Odium or Cultivation.

Phew. These rebuttals get long, don’t they?

If I had any closing words, I would say that, for one thing, spren are a necessary criterion. Kaladin needs it for his Windrunning--Syl gives the power to him. Jasnah and Shallan need the Truthspren for Soulcasting (though it does seem that Shallan’s Memories don’t appear to need their help, crap). If they aren’t the focus, then they are still extremely important.

An alternative focus theory would still need to describe spren are significant. However, I really don’t think there exists a critical criteria to Surgebinding which is specific enough to require ten different powers.

So, I guess I am reducing the specificity requirement to only apply to the type of focus itself. The focus variant is specific. Its effect can be a family of effects, though. We need to find a list of at least ten of anything for it to be a focus. Ten different “thoughts” is a cop-out

Other than the ten orders of Radiants, Heralds, Fools, and Highprinces--which are of course not focuses--our possibilities are stuff from the Ars Arcanum: gemstones, essences, body focuses, Soulcasting properties, or divine attributes. Essences would be a cool focus, but there’s no evidence for that. Gemstones, as I mentioned in my original post, are not a requirement. Divine attributes get you closer, but I could argue and say that the divine attributes are what attract spren to make the Nahel bond in the first place. None of these things feel right, or even critical. To Kaladin, he needs Stormlight and he needs the Nahel bond. To Shallan and Jasnah, they need Stormlight and some sort of bond with Truthspren. Those are critical elements.

EDIT: Silus noted to me that my Feruchemy connection didn't make sense. Let me explain again.

Disregard SDNA and genetics completely. Let's pretend everyone is a Feruchemist. Then, when a someone wears an iron bracer, the bracer gives the holder the capability to do some "action". In this case, store a physical property.

What I am suggesting is that spren gives the user the capability to perform some "action", only in this case, it is two powers, and which two you get is dependent on which type of spren it is.

Both require a Cognitive decision to perform said action, but in both cases, the focus gives you the capability to perform that action. The "action" and the fuel of the action can be anything. It's just in Roshar, if genetics was not an issue, then spren is the only thing that matters, whereas on Scadrial, SDNA and genetics are a factor of which type of metal you can use.

Edited by Chaos, 30 July 2011 - 04:07 AM.

[Cuaiir]

Chaos, I noticed you skipped over the 'Body Focuses' portion of the Ars Arcanum. I think these might have some significance, but I'm not sure what it would be at this point.
For clarity's sake, Body Focuses:
Inhalation
Exhalation
Soul
Eyes
Hair
Blood
Oil
Nails
Bone
Flesh

It's likely that the Body Focuses tied to Windrunning are Inhalation and Exhalation, since they have to breathe in Stormlight whenever they want to do anything - and they lose it when they exhale (though it's likely that's just a function of Stormlight).

If we assume that the order of the Body Focuses is important - and I see no reason why it wouldn't be - then the things tied to Soul would be Exhalation and Eyes. This makes a sort of sense with the two orders of Soulcasters we've seen, to a degree. Shallan takes Memories using her eyes - the pictures she draws are purely Physical, and any emotional ties come from her skill as an artist and her vague recollection of the event. Jasnah... well, we haven't seen a lot of her abilities, but that crazy lightning bolt bit in chapter 36? Probably not tied to Soul, since she did this immediately before:

The other two men fled in opposite directions. Jasnah took a deep breath, closing her eyes, lifting her hand above her head.

We don't see it, but I'm thinking Jasnah breathes out as she uses that lightning.

No, this really doesn't get us any closer to figuring out what the focuses are, but it is interesting.

[Chaos]

You're right, I did forget about Body Focuses. Probably because I was really tired. I don't really have anything to say regarding that, except that "Soul" is vague.

[Mad_Scientist]

Chaos, I had a hard to time following your arguments at first, and then I realized the reason was because you seem to be assuming that the focus is also the method someone gains powers, or the method someone gains the ability to use powers, to put it in a different way.

But that's not the case. Or at least, it has not been the case so far. I mentioned this in my earlier post, but I guess you must have missed it, as you never tried to make a counter argument. So I'll restate some points. In Elantris, the Sheod is not the focus. Neither is the Dor. In Mistborn, genetics are not the focus. Neither is Snapping. Yet those are the things that determine whether someone can use AonDor or allomancy. In fact, there has NEVER been a magic system where the normal method of gaining powers and/or gaining the ability to use powers was also the focus of the magic system. (If you're thinking about hemalurgy, I'll get to later, don't worry.)

If spren are not the focus, well... everyone on Roshar can think. What differentiates a member of Bridge Four, who cannot Windrun, and Kaladin? They can see what Kaladin is doing. No matter how hard they imagine them doing the same tasks as Kaladin, they will not Windrun. Is there a genetic thing? Well, that seems unlikely. So what is sufficient to Windrun?

This is a poor argument, for the reasons I stated at the start of this post. In Mistborn, no matter how hard someone like Dox tries, no matter how much he watches Vin, he cannot burn metals. No matter how much Vin watches Sazed, she can never store memories in a coppermind. Does that somehow mean that metals are not the focus for those magic systems? Of course not. Because you need MORE than just the focus to use magic. In allomancy, you need genetics. You also need to Snap. It is only AFTER you meet both of those requirements that you can use the focus to do allomancy.

So even if thought was the focus for Surgebinding (and I'm not saying it is, I am honestly not sure), there would obviously be more to Surgebinding then just thinking. For some reason, you seem to be thinking that the focus for Surgebinding must be responsible for everything related to the magic system, even though past magic systems have been based on a variety of things, of which the focus is only one part.

For allomancy, genetics determined your potential power. You have to snap before being able to use said power..

For feruchemy, genetics determined your potential power. You don't have to do anything before being able to use said power.

For AonDor... something(ability to draw well plus the ability to understand complicated math equations?) may have determined your potential power. You have to be taken by the Sheod before being able to use said power..

For Awakening, your amount of breaths determined your potential power. You don't have to do anything before being able to use said power.

For hemalurgy... I'll get to that later.

Notice something about those above magic systems? Notice how metals, Aons, and Commands had absolutely nothing to do with granting someone the ability to use the power of the respective magic systems? If you want to nitpick and say that for Awakening you need breaths, and you get those breaths from other people using Commands, I'll also nitpick and say that there are one breath Commands and Commands that don't even use your entire breath, so you can still use Awakening even if you've never been given a breath by another.

Now, none of this is to say that the method you gain powers within a magic system can't also be the focus of the magic system. I am simply pointing out that it is clearly not a requirement, nor is it even common.

Yet you clearly are assuming that such is the case. Your entire argument against exlusivity is an example. You assume that if exlusivity existed for the Roshar focus, it would somehow mean there would have to be people capable of using only a single form of Surgebinding. Why? Here's how I defined exlusivity.

"A specific focus variation, a specific metal, a specific Aon, a specific Command, produces an exclusive effect. No other metals will produce the same effect as pewter, no other Aons will produce the same effect as Ehe, no other commands will product the same effect as 'Destroy Evil'".

Let's use Aons as an example. Aon Ehe creates fire. As far as we know, no other Aon creates fire. And Aon Ehe will never do anything other than create fire. Aons are exclusive, at least from what we have seen so far. Would you disagree? Now, you could really nitpick and point out that Aon Ashe creates light, and Aon Ehe creates fire, and fire can create light... but I'd say you know very well what I am talking about. I'm talking about the primary purpose of the Aon, not side effects.

So I think it's safe to say that, at least from what we have seen, Aons are exlusive. Now, does that mean that there must exist a group of people who can use AonDor and draw Aons, but can each only draw a single Aon? Does the fact that such a group doesn't seem to exist disprove Aon exlusivity, and mean there must be Aons we don't know about that produce the exact same effect as Aon Ehe?

Wait, what? What am I talking about? Why would "Aon Ehe creates fire, other Aons will not create fire" also mean that "There must be people who can only draw a single Aon"? Isn't that a very strange leap of logic? Yet, that is exactly the leap you have done with Surgebinding. You assume that if there was exlusivity in Surgebinding's focus variations, it would mean there would have to be people only capable of binding a single Surge, and then say that because such a group doesn't seem to exist, it disproves Surgebinding exlusivity.

I couldn't figure out why you thought this at first, until I realized you were still seeming to think of a focus as "that which grants the ability to use a power" in a magic system. But as I said before, that is certainly NOT the case. Here's how I see Surgebinding, in relation to allomancy and feruchemy.

For allomancy, genetics determine your potential power. Before you can use said power, you have to Snap. After Snapping, you can either use 1 of 16 powers, or all of them. Most people can use only 1 power. You use metals when you use your powers, and they have a direct connection to which power you use. Metals are the focus of allomancy.

For feruchemy, genetics determine your potential power. Before you can use said power, you don't have to do anything. You can use all 16 powers, or only 1 of them. Most people can use all of them (I believe that Brandon confirmed that feruchemy "mistings" existed at the time of Mistborn, they were just very rare). You use metals when you use your powers, and they have a direct connection to which power you use. Metals are the focus of feruchemy.

For Surgebinding(I think), your actions/ideals determine your potential power and cause you to attract a certain type of spren. Before you can use said power, you have to bond with a spren. After bonding, you can use 2 out of the 10 powers. All people can use 2 powers. You use *unknown focus* when you use your powers, and *unknown focus* has a direct connection to which power you use. *Unknown focus* is the focus of Surgebinding.

You say that spren bonds are crucial to Surgebinding. You say the are needed. You say they determine powers. I agree. I think all those things are true. But you say this means they must be the focus, or at least this provides strong evidence they are the focus. I say, why? It makes them similiar to genetics/snapping for allomancy, or breaths for Awakening, or the Sheod and the Dor for AonDor. None of those things were the focuses of their magic systems.

I feel like I am repeating myself a lot in this post, but given how many of your arguments in your giant rebuttal seemed to be based on the idea that a focus for a magic system is also the thing that determines what powers people can use in a magic system, I feel the need to reinforce my point. The focus does not need to have anything to do with whether someone can use the power of a magic system. From what we have seen in previous magic systems, it is usually unrelated.

Let's finally get to hemalurgy, which I promised to deal with in regard to certain points. There are two things I need to answer regarding hemalurgy. The first I will deal with is the "activeness" of a focus, and how it relates to hemalurgy.

In my opinion, the power of hemalurgy, at least the active power, is that of stealing abilities from other people. In my mind, metals are still an active part of hemalurgy, because when you pound a spike into someones's heart and kill them, you have to use a metal to do so. In my mind, the "magical" part of hemalurgy occurs when you kill someone, and since you can't use a wooden(or anything other than metal) spike to steal powers via hemalurgy, metals are an active part of the system.

Still, I can see why this would be problematic or confusing to people, so I will amend my "The focus is active" rule. Rather than simply saying the focus is active, I will now say that the focus is as active as the magic system it is a part of. So if a magic system is mostly based on passive abilities, the focus will be much more passively used than in other magic systems. But if the magic has a whole host of active abilities, than the focus will be actively used. This, I think, should satisfy any objections regarding activeness in relation to hemalurgy.

The other issue with hemalurgy I need to address relates to my claim that none of the magic systems we have seen so far have had a focus that was also the main method of determining whether you could use the power of said magic system. This is clear in cases like allomancy, where genetics/Snapping determines what powers you have and whether you can use them, and metals are the focus, but it is a bit more confusing with hemalurgy.

I would say that I define the power of hemalurgy as the ability to steal powers and give them to someone, and thus, everyone is a potential hemalurgist. Remember that nameless minion of the Citizen who stabbed his Thug ally through the heart and accidentally gave Spook the ability to burn pewter? He was a hemalurgist. Anyone can pound a spike through someone's heart and stick it into a another person, therefore, everyone has the power of a hemalurgist. Thus metals, the focus of hemalurgy, have nothing to do with whether a person can use hemalurgy, because all people are born with the power to use hemalurgy.

But I suppose some people might look at hemalurgy differently. They might say the power of hemalurgy is not just the power to steal abilities, but also the power to use them yourself, and that you can't use stolen abilities unless you stick metal in your body. From that perspective, the focus of hemalurgy, metal, also becomes the method with which you gain hemalurgic powers.

And so, I say, ok. Maybe that is true. So what? My goal in differentiating focuses from the thing that determines whether you can use a power was to state the following points.

"If something determines whether a person has the ability to use powers within a magic system, it does not mean it is also the focus of the magic system.

If something is the focus of a magic system, it does not mean it is also the thing that determines whether a person has the ability to use powers within the magic system.

There may be some overlap between the focus and the thing that determines whether someone has the ability to use powers withing a magic system, but said overlap is uncommon."

We have 5 magic system with known focuses. In at least 4 of the 5, the focus is not the thing that determines whether someone has the ability to use the magic system. So if in the end, if 1 of the 5 systems has a focus that also fufills that role, does it change the above 3 points? No. It just means that the focus being the same thing as that which determines whether you can use the magic goes from "nonexistant" to "unusual" in the magic systems we have seen. "1 out of 5" times is certainly better than "0 out of 5" times, but it's hardly strong evidence.

Let's move on. I'm going to ignore omnipresence of a focus for now, because as I myself said, it's the one thing that I can say for sure has had exceptions. I don't think it makes sense for Szeth to be an exception based on what I saw in Mistborn, but who knows, maybe he is. Or maybe he does have a spren.

Getting to specificity, I'll once again revise 1 of my 5 defining points. Instead of saying that "a focus variation is specific" I'll say that "a focus variation is as specific as the magic system it is a part of is specific." So if a magic system only consists of a handful of abilities with very broad powers, than there will be a handful of focus variations which are used to produce very broad powers. If a magic system can be broken down into thousands of individual effects distinct from each other, then there will be thousands of focus variations distinct from each other.

Now, the at first glance, the above paragraph doesn't seem to contradict your theory. 10 orders of Knights Radiant, 10 forms of Surgebinding that bind 10 Surges, 10 spren bonds. The problem is that each spren bond seems to relate to 2 types of Surgebinding, 2 Surges.

To look at it another way, you could for the moment ignore the existance of half the Radiant orders, and you would still be able to have 10 forms of Surgebinding, but with only 5 spren bonds and only 5 orders. Each spren bond seems to relate to 2 powers that are clearly defined as being distinct and separate from one another. It's just not specific enough for me, because the magic system definitely states a Windfinder as having two different powers, not one power with two different variations.

Let me give a final analogy to explain why I am having problems accepting spren bonds as the focus for Surgebinding, using Aons again. I can accept that Aon Ehe can produce many different fires, of different power levels, and at different locations. But if someone told me that Aon Ehe can also teleport a person, and that teleportaion and fire are defined as completely different and distinct powers by AonDor, and that how you draw Aon Ehe seems to have no effect whatsoever on whether it create a fire or teleports you, you control that through some other method, and that there are other Aons that can also teleport you, or create fire, and there is some weird guy who can apparantly use AonDor without using Aons... well, at that point, I'd start to wonder how the heck Aons can be a focus, or what the heck a focus even means.

Edited by Mad_Scientist, 31 July 2011 - 01:51 AM.